MikeMc

Hello Willdo and all my RC buddies

If think I've made my point and made everybody crazy enough on this topic so I'm going to shutup about it. I can hear you all thinking, "Thank goodness he's shutting up." Just wanted to fill in th answer here. IMHO: There is a time to be mature and a time to be immature. I know the difference. At one point in my 20s I thought growing up meant I had to be uptight and wasn't allowed to have fun, play games or just mess around because of what I was affraid people would think of me. Knowing when to be completely insane/immature and when to be serious/safe is the key when flying RC plane and raising kids. I'm not a perfect parent but I know when and when not to be immature, and what personal views to share with my children and what not to share. I really enjoy watching Sponge Bob with my kids. We don't have to be a uptight, ultra serious, no-fun, control freaks to fly RC and be safe at the same time.

Tests the limits.

Your bud,
Friendly Mike

Willdo

Great to see you have good times with your kids, mine have long gone so enjoy them at this age, it wont be long till it isn't cool anymore to fly with dad!

Rules are necessary when there are a lot of people around, but where there is no club, and just a casual group of fliers, rules can't be enforced.
One example where chaos rules is a local park, ( which is actually a volcano with a crater!) where slope soaring is popular, and people go for walks around the rim, little knowing that they could be quite easily killed by dynamic soarers which can get up over 100 mph, whistling up out of the crater and across the ridge where they walk! Two people that I know of were quite badly injured, one with a fractured skull.
Luckily the gliders were foamies, and not the super streamlined carbon fibre projectiles some of these guys use. There has been no ban on any of these as yet, unbelievably!

Having said all that, I do not fly my power plane with any club, but I have found somewhere with very few people around.
A friend and I went to join a club but they ( except for one friendly guy) took exception our foam and parcel tape planes ( which fly extremely well and have had many flights) and our cavalier attitude, the club captain was very irate and anti, when we arrived one day and caught him flying alone ( strictly against club rules)
They all stood around in a little group "tut tutting" at us, so we haven't been back since.
Last I heard, that club now has something like 10 members and 7 or 8 "officials - it used to be a fantastic club.

However, I know of another club further out which is a little more relaxed and enjoys a huge membership, which I may well join.

MikeMc

Hahaha, if you weren't in New Zealand I'd swear I was a member of that club once too.

Backpack, quart of fuel, chicken stick, fuel bulb, very basic tools, a single 40 size plane and a 20+ minute walk. What my best friend and I get is a little bit of heaven. No club, no bosses, no rules, no people, and a mile square or more of almost perfectly smooth private flying field. Now all we need is lawn chairs and a big umbrella. Paradise.

ttmr

See our club is a little different from the ones you describe. We have 2 simple requrements to fly at the field, AMA and an airplane. however our training probram is more than most of the ones listed. In adition to the basic flight manuvers we requre loops and rolls, emilmans and split S along with dead stick. And it a real dead stick. And I can defend the teaching of rolls. A guy who is training with us has problems with rolls, he can do everything else and even has come out on his own and flew sucsessfuly. But he wanted to get rolls done so he keeps coming back. one day late last year he was flying with an istructor and was hit by a sudden gust of wind and the plane rolled inverted on him and caried over the flight line (this was imedeatly following an aborted landing) he was unable to recover and had he not had the instructor there he would have come down in the crowded pits. As it was the instructor regained control, rolled it back and flew safely(as possible) over the pits and back across the flight line. The plane was slow and low and to have turned away from the pits would have risked a stall. Besides I went through the program and found it very fun and knowing the proper way to loop and roll makes me a better pilot.


BTW you are requred to max preform a real aircraft before soloing. Stalls steep turns and slow flight all demonstrate control of the aircraft all the way to the edge. The edges are farther away on model aircraft so it takes more to push them.

halfandhalf825

ttmr, i wish our club suggested proper loops and rolls. Especially when they accidentally get inverted. Everyones tendency, when they're inverted is to pull up. When u pull up, u know whut happens.
Our club just requires AMA and buying an airplane.
The owner of the LHS also owns the club. If you don't but the plane from him, he won't teach u to fly. I didn't buy the radio from him and he kept talking bad about it. he said the older version of my radio is better than my newer version just because he doesn't ssell it.
Sorry to get off subject, just my $.02

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I've been flying off of the buddy box for about 3 weeks now. I fly 4-5 days a week. My club is probably small and our field is out in the country. I feel pretty lucky after reading all of these rules, laws, bylaws, etc. I was reading the other day about impound points for radios, fly stations, etc. Whew, where is the fun in all of that? A safety officer checking my mufflers? Radios? Checking the airworthiness of my planes? Yikes!

I was an instructor pilot in the Army and this sounds like the same sort of thing to me. I go out to my club to have fun, not to have inspections. Also, I think this proficiency thing is going too far. I had to do that for many years with student pilots and the abuse factor is too massive. Forget it. Not for me, and I used to teach/evaluate the stuff in real aircraft!

If it isn't fun the potential new members are going to walk away and not come back. People like me will go fly someplace else, or use the club field when nobody is there during the week.

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

BLW,
3 weeks at 4-5 days a week is about 14 days. Figure at least 2 flights a day so you've had about 28-30 flights. That's good but shouldn't you be about ready to solo? What criteria is your instructor gonna use to tell you to go it alone?

Willdo

You got it in one!
It should be fun and relaxation with a little commonsense, but unfortunately you will never be able to get your message across.

wings

I just joined a club this spring. It is relaxed and safe. It is not like a college fraternity where you have to be hazed, tormented, and prove yourself before you can be accepted.

I am sure someone would say something if I was being unsafe. But there is no "check list" that has to be approved by one of the "great ones" before I am worthy. lol


I would rather not fly at all if a club is going to treat you like a 2 year old.

bigchap

i know a lot of people are harping on about stall recovery,if the instructor was any good the pupil should not be stalling any way,the main thing to learn at my club is dealing with deadstick landings and due to the fact that the wind changes from minute to minute the ability to land downwind and crosswind

ekrcflyer

These rules looks like the rules in our club too, but ours also requires the "student" to make proper announcement of his/her intentions, e.g. "taxing for tak-off", "taking off", "landing"... etc. And of crse you have to announce LOUDLY any problems you have: "dead stick", etc. and your intentions to go to the field.

I think this is very important part of successful and safe flying.

seaducer

At our club most rules are common sense. They need to be posted though, as the most uncommon element in society is common sense.

There are only a few "Nazi" rules, and they are rarely enforced. One such rule is that a new plane, or newly repaired plane needs to be checked out by the safety officer before you fly it, I have never seen that rule enforced, and those that are not good builders ussually seek out the advice of others on their own, thus complying to an extent while benefitting from experience. I guess we are lucky, as most members get along and will help anyone who asks, and people ask often.

I think student pilots should be trained and asked to demostrate a reasonable degree of control over their aircraft before being allowed to operate them around other people. Forcing someone to show competence ( not perfection) in a variety of circumstances benefits all of the club members, anyone can claim to be able to do anything.

I agree with those that say adults should be able to make their own decisions on things, but frankly, I like to know that when someone else is flying at my field, I do not have to watch them 24-7 to ensure my safety, I can work on my plane for instance.

Guidelines such as those first posted are a good place to start, and can be tailored to the unique needs of whatever field. Obviously some aircraft cannot perform certain manuevers, or perform them well, so strict scoring systems would be out of place.

I got the impression from those advocating the rules listed here that absolute requirements were not what was being discussed.

In addition to the stalls etc that were added along the way, I think good rudder useage ( flat turns and the like) should also be taught. At my feild, there are those that say "You don't need a rudder to fly", they never fly in the wind though. When the wind picks up suddenly ( and it does this every now and then) it is always touch and go that these people can safely land. This is simply for their the longevity of their planes though, not nescasarily the safety of others.
But then again, when you are teaching someone to fly, you are teaching them a skill, and signing off on them states that they should be able to handle most problems, so teach them that way...

Willdo

I agree with most of what you say, but it is the manner in which some of the "enforcers" act that is the problem, and the way in which they discourage new people. ( this happened to me).

Many of them have a great approach, but others seem to be acting out a scenario that they are unable to achieve in everyday life - ie. they have found an easy way to become a dictator, a general or an air marshal, therefore spoiling everyone's enjoyment of which after all is a great sport.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Basin Bum,

I had been flying solo all that time since being off of the buddy box. Normally, I put in around 5-6 flights a day when I go to the field. My trainer keeps a logbook of every flight, etc and I picked up his habit too. I had a free planner book and tossed it in the flight box just to put down time on each plane, damage, etc. It's kinda interesting to go back and see how much I flew, what came loose or broke, deadsticks, etc.

A lot of us fly alone at the field. I intentionally flew alone for my first true solo flight. I went out and made my mistakes with great nervousness. It worked out the rough spots and forced me to relax and have fun. Anyway, it was something that I had to do to get over the hump and really feel like it was a solo. Nobody to nurse me through startup. Nobody to help me out of a jam. Nobody to land the plane for me. I had to think of everything on my own and make sure I had everything right. It was good training. I messed up a few things and learned from it without crashing my only plane. I always get a lot of help, advice, etc at the field. Lots of good guys there who take the time to walk over and be friendly.

I don't agree with hard rules against using the field alone. I've driven out there many times and nobody showed up. Why lose a good day of flying? The club president always seems to be out there alone...until one of us shows up and finds him. Practicing alone is sometimes a good thing.

wings

I've been at the field a few times alone. I agree there shouldn't be a rule against it. But it is taking a risk though. I always have my cell phone. But if you get majorly hurt by your hand being in the prop or something, it could be a fiasco if you can't dial 911.

jettstarblue

Those that claim you don't need to use the rudder don't really have a clue. It's just an excuse for lazyness.

Jetts

Willdo

Everyone to his own way, all depends where you grew up.

People who grew up in a rural environment tend to be happy on their own, and they tend to experiment more, because they can, and don't tend to sit around waiting for instructions.
Many of these people learn to fly on their own because it gives them a great sense of achievement.
I did this too, - I'm not perfect, and my cheap, soft shelled, scratch built polystyrene power plane crashed a few times ( with hardly any damage ), also I tangled with the prop a couple of times, but I made it ok. and I'm happy!

People who grew up in a city environment tend to be happier with instruction and rules and don't have many problems with them, due to liability laws and the number of people around, ( rightly so ) and so they tend to be more compliant, but we shouldn't try to enforce these rules across the board.

Also there are fliers who like to be competetive, and therefore need a strict set of rules, but do fun fliers who just like to have a nice time flying need to be subject to this strict set of rules?

Some people are perfectionists and spend most of their leisure time getting everything correct and perfect on their aircraft before flying, and others are prepared to accept compromise and spend the maximum time flying something which flies even if it isn't perfect.

So fly sensibly and safely, ( if you are not sure, ask someone who is experinced ) and above all don't let anyone tell you how to enjoy yourself in your own leisure time, there are too many people dying to do this.

Good comment on the rudder, try taking a taildragger off without a rudder!

jettstarblue

WELL SAID, WILLDO!!
I'm a self taught ( out in the boonies) flier/now instructor. I tend to follow the " common sence/fly what ya' brought" type. If a student brings a total piece of crap to the field, we don't say "go home and start again" we say, " get the toolbox out!" and make them right, explaining what and why as we do. Tutor, mentor, instruct. Not "my plane's better than your plane, and so am I, and I've been here longer than you, so now follow MY rules."
I still have my open policy: If you want to learn to fly, and have your own equipment, or are willing to get some after an intro flight or two, I'll teach anyone, at my field, for free. I don't turn anyone away, for any reason if they truly want to learn, and not just be an instant know it all, and cowboy flier.

Jetts

Willdo

Yes, we seem to be in total agreement there!
There are a few others who will agree with us, but unfortunately we are a minority.
I do believe that most people want to please those "who would be king",

wings

I'm in agreement with you guys. I don't think we are a minority. The people in agreement with us probably didn't even bother to enter this thread.

MikeEast

My Feedback: (3)

I my humble opinion, all a person needs to know to be able to fly solo is takeoff, fly smoothly and predictably and land. I saw at the beginning of this thread some know it all get critical of loop and roll practice. Flying is supposed to be fun, and in teaching anyone anything you should never set up the lesson so that the trainee will fail or stress out. Loops and rolls teach the basic extremes of using the control surfaces. I do not think that it is imperative that a trainee learn to fly inverted before soloing, if a person can roll comfortably they can play around with inverted flight 3 mistakes high all day long. I never flew rudder on my trainer and all it cost me was inaccurate landings. I could hit the runway area very safely with ailerons and elevator. AFTER I soloed the guys began challenging me to use rudder to correct heading. A new pilot by nature will not want to fly inverted until he feels comforatble in his mind doing so. He will not intentionally spin or stall his airplane. A good instructor will make sure that a new pilot knows exactly what conditions will stall his airplane and how NOT to do so. A newbie is screwed if they stall in most cases anyways and will learn how to handle AFTER they become confidant enough to solo. Just because a pilot gets his liscense in real life does not mean he has experienced a severe spin or stall. There are some guys who can takeoff and fly in circles for years without crashing but cannot or dont want to to aerobatics of any sort. Teach 4 BASIC things for practical flight training, throttle management, elevator use, rudder use and aileron use and all the aspects of their basic function, plus field etiquette and a guy will not need to know how to get out of a stall or spin with a trainer. As they become more confident and can "feel" the airplane flying they will experiment at their own pace and obviously fellow club members will be there to offer all the "help" a person could ever ask for.

The scariest people that I see fly are not trainees or newbies but experienced pilots who dont know their limitations and fly partially out of control from takeoff to landing and dont even realize it.

Dont get upset, just my perspective

Willdo

I agree with almost everything else you say, but I found the rudder necessary on my plane, it probably varies from plane to plane,
I did use the apparently dubious "gunning it" method though!

jettstarblue

Why get upset? You said it all!

jdwardus

My Feedback: (2)

well we all got are apinonsbut i have to say you taking a fun hobby and tryingto turn it in to somthing complacating your flight traning sheet is very very stupid

skier

I'll have to agree that all that some one should have to know to solo is how to fly, land, and take off safely. On my solo flight, I was flying inverted, but not every one wants to do that. I have belonged to two clubs now and each is different in regards to soloing. One had a long list of probably 20-30 maneuvers that had to be performed, and the other you just had to be able to take off, land, touch-and-go,loop roll, figure-8 and fly a circle. I left the club that you had to perform the 20-30 maneuvers at (not for that reason, it wasn't as nice a feild), and I now happily fly at the other club.