MikeMc

I knew my post wouldn't go over too well, but yet I still want to add more.

Does it make any difference if it's an RC club we're talking about here? No, it could be almost any type of club... I said almost. Does it matter if it's an official club or just a group of people? Again, no. Am I suggesting turning people lose to go crazy and be destructive? No.

Two problems I see it as groups grow and mature. This is going to sound offensive but I'll do my best not to make it that way and apologise if it's not 100% clear.

1. Clubs/groups are usually run bythe more experienced players. And it should be... they already know the ins and outs. While that is good thing they tend to make desisions on what a beginner should know based on their own skill level and relative to themself rather than to the student and/or what the student needs to know. Personally I'd say 95% of what is taught is unnessesary.

2. Rules become a monster that only serve the rules themself. This is my pet peave. I live in the US and love my country but there's no doubt we love to make rules that serve NO purpose.

Rule example #1. Pilot needs to be an expert at taxiing so he doesn't crash into my $5000 scale plane. This must be evaluated by an instructor and signed off.
Rule example #2. Pilot needs to be an expert at handleing big aircraft so he doesn't scratch my $25,000 car he parked next to. This must be evaluated by an instructor and signed off.
Rule example #3. Just keep adding as many rules as you want.

I say there's little difference between #1 and #2. In fact I'll bet #2 is more important even though it sounds silly. Heck, I have a $50 plane and a brand new $35,000+ truck... I want rule #2. No number of rules can protect your money. I'm not saying all rules or instruction is bad but It's 10 times easier to get your 1st drivers license at the DMV and even more dangerous if you crash. My personal opnion is rules at club fields are way out of control and make it more fun for the rule markers than pretty much anybody else. Fear tactics to validate usless rules need to go away as well.

Few good helpful and safty minded rules = Good
Dozens of poor usless rules = Bad

We don't need a rule for every tiny thing and people don't need to be treated like babies. If they're children that's one thing but if they're adults they need the freedom to make their own decsions and deal with the preasure of making them.

Mike

stuk_at_work

My Feedback: (111)

There is nothing wrong with a basic skills test to give club members some sense that all pilots are capable of reasonably handling themselves in the air and on the ground. Our test has a few more maneuvers with a few more repetitions than the one presented above, and is really geared towards "proving" two things:

1. Make sure the "new" pilot can play safely with others (including the kids on the adjacent soccer field).
2. Is confident and has enough skills that he can enjoy that new airplane he bought for a season or two.

Do the maneuvers have to be perfect? Absolutely not! Do they all have to be performed? Absolutely!

FHHuber

Ummm.. where does it say the "suggested skills" have to be performed to the precision of an FAI Pattern competitor?

The idea is... can the guy keep the plane reasonably level... or does he do a big up and down zig-zag which chases the rabbits out of the bushes 400 ft below and the buzzards out from 400 ft above where he was supposed to be? (does he fly the plane or react to the lane and overcorrect like hell... letting the plane fly him?)

Taxiing... is he reasonably able to make one big figure 8 on the runway? Or when trying to simply do a straight line does he end up 100 yards off the runway?

If doing a loop as a check... does he make something that looks somewhat round... or is it a figure-9 with the end being 10 ft under ground? (they called that a "9-G dive" in the 1930's... because every modeler knew that no FF model could survive 9 G's.)

MikeMc

Sorry Stu. I do respect you and your decision but I'm going to use this as an example. I hope you don't mind too much.

This is one of the exact rule/guideline/idea/whatever I'm talking about. This person or this person's parent needs to worry about this themself. We don't need rules to protect us from ourself. If he/she crashes their plane that would stink but will hopefully learn from it. If they don't learn then to bad.

Again, sorry incase this is offensive and I will continue to read and resect others opinion on this matter. Just maybe not agree with it.

Mike

jettstarblue

I realize that there are (too many) rules to try and keep everyone/thing safe. I realize that all equipment is subject to failure-even 5000 dollar planes. So we make rules to try to control the things that we think we can, and HOPE that the 5000 dollar plane doesn't harpoon the soccer player 500' away.
Seems to be a backward engineering of things here.......all the money in the world, or AMA insurance, or rules will NOT buy Jonny a new head.
We have only one rule at our field-which, I admit is out in the middle of nowhere, away from other "recreators"- don't be stupid. That is, use your head, don't take unnecesary risks, fly a sound plane. All pilots start out somewhere, and get better as they go, that why we have buddy boxes and such, rarely do we have to kick someone out of the nest.
When they are ready to go, we let 'em go.

Jetts

superflea

seems to me that much of this is a bunch of nonsense any way. I mean there seems to be hard and fast rules in some clubs that if a new pilot cant fly the plane straight and level and control the turns etc then they cant fly solo. well this is a no brainer really i mean think about it the example was made about buzzing rabbits 400' below and buzzards 400' above, and yes i know it is just an example, but really who would turn a student loose if he cant hold his alt within 800' of level? its a no brainer. bottom line i think is that no one would honestly turn any one loose if that is as good as it gets, through the training the pilot will get better at all aspects of flying and this is true with or without a check list it takes what a gallon of fuel to train some one maybe 2 or 3, he's going to get better and smoother again this is true even witout a check list.


as for the risk of flying at some fields goes all i can say is some places are just not suitable for ANYONE. and let me say here i used to fly at san diego jack murphey stadium (how long ago was that) with interstate 8 off to the left an office building just beyond the chargers practice field a main road i believe 6 lanes maybe only four off to the right and a daycare center ahead and to the right and any one who felt like being in the parking lot with us on the runway you want paranoid try ' dont fly over the daycare dont fly over the freeway dont fly over the team car on runway um sir would you mind parking behind us hey man dont be flying over friars road' and on and on the point is that we can require all new guys to fly like chuck yeager but maybe it would be as helpfull if we just relaxed a bit and taught them all without the pressure of dont go here dont go there but instead focused on the rough edges and and so much on pressuring them to not screw up this is after all what most of these rules are saying 'do it right or you cant solo here'

jettstarblue

Like I said, we have one rule; don't be stupid........
Amen to the statement some fields are not suitable for ANYONE.
Common sense should be one major rule at ALL fields, to bad it's in such SHORT SUPPLY!

Jetts

Hossfly

Not a reply to anyone, just a comment on the thread.

At Jetero, (www.jetero.com) the solo requirement check is:

Be able to start engine, and taxi to the runway making the calls "On the Runway', "Taking Off" and when on approach, "Landing".

Using buddy cord, be able to accomplish left and right turns, loop, axial or barrel roll, recovery from unusual attitude/s, and 3 Take-Offs and landings with engine running continuously, full stops and/or touch and goes OK.
Then the buddy cord is disconnected and the student makes 3 more landings as above and then he is on his own. Just to give him the confidence of doing it on his own. (In full scale the first solo is simply confidence that the student CAN do without that 200# of excess baggage (;-)) yet that baggage can offer additional help along the way.)

Prior to the flight he/she is briefed that if the Instructor has to take control of the airplane for any Safety problem, i.e. flying behind the flight line, flying into the line of pilot stations, or such, the solo-check is terminated for that day. If he doesn't make the 3 landings with engine running, then we do it over and over, as long as the Instructor is willing. Effort is extended to make it a fun and relaxed "Check-Out" but still a demo of Safety considerations.

A loop is up and over and recovery to level, NOT a judged type. Even top guns don't always get a 10. A roll is just that ,rolling around the sky. Unusual attitude is simply to enforce the pilot's confidence that if a bug flies in one eye, or he gets disoriented in some way, no need to panic, he can fly the airplane back to normal flight. He learns that in his training.

When I solo a person and sign that off in the Club's Record Book, I have a responsibility to all other members that the person has demonstrated a series of SAFE actions with reasonable proficiency, and he/she is safe to fly on the line among other pilots including ME.[X(]

There is no limit on the person after that. Several have gone overboard and tried to outrun their abilities and gave up the hobby. THEIR CHOICE. Some seldom, if ever, get any better. THEIR CHOICE. Most are reasonable progress somewhere between the extremes.

There is a limitless amount of help among the members. It is up to the individual to ask for that help. About the only things that are NOT AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE are to stay on the flight side of the flight line, don't fast pass down the runway when other stations are occupied, no engine starts behind the safety fence, and NO TRANSMITTERS OUTSIDE THE IMPOUND WITHOUT THE FREQ. CLIP.
Even I have to succumb to certain rules!![:@]

edited to make a he a the.

Swager

My Feedback: (1)

Those rules and solo check out look good to me. Our club is about the same, but they require a "deadstick".

I want rules and I want people to obey them. Keeps me and others safe. A high speed R/C aircraft can kill a person. Accidents at a field can happen so fast and I would not be apart of a club that did not have manditory safety rules.

rik1024

My Feedback: (1)

we have one rule; don't be stupid........
If i was told that was what it took to join or fly at your club i would go find another your rules are a little harsh. Safety is great and i am all for being safe but you want 3d flyer's before anyone can solo! some one has gotten carried away with the rules. You might end up with people trying to fly on there own in there back yard or a park with no experience or help i don't think that is very safe. Just my opinion.

jettstarblue

Hmmm O.K., find a club where the rules are: be stupid, do what you want, exercise no common sense, and uh- oh yeah, no "harsh rules" Have a few beers while your at it, after all, that's what the AMA has insurance for, right?

Jetts

MikeMc

"Don't be stupid" I like it.

Everybody is so worried about somebody else cutting their finger on a prop or cutting off a finger or worse. Does somebody need to be told not to put their finger in a 10,000 rpm spinning whatever thingy, do they need to be told not to put their finger in the blender, do they need to be told not to play on the freeway? Let them lose a finger or 2 and then learn something from it. I have 2 young kids and I make sure they're safe but if I treated them like most clubs treat their members one day I'd have 2 50 year old kids that would never leave the house.

15 years ago I belonged to a 100 member club and there was zero checks for new pilots. Either they ask for help or they didn't. Now I belong to a 100 member club and there's a hundred different things on the checklist before a new member can solo even if they're obviously an acomplished pilot. Is there a different number of out of control planes crashing into the pits and killing a dozen people? No, there's nobody crashing into the pits.

IMO 500% more rules only add 0.1% more safety. It's a rules-fest to 1) stay up with the Jones. 2) add importance to the club. 3) somebody loves making rules.

An RC plane can kill people? Why not say, an RC plane can tear out your guts and you'll lay on the ground in intense pain for hours while you slowly bleed to death and nobody will help you. Scare tactic to validate rules/laws. Same goes for "we could lose our field."

I'm not saying all rules are bad or the intentions of more rules are bad but I've seen the details of the rules go way overboard many times.

loop - not required
roll - not required
landing - not required (can they crash land in the dirt on the far side of the runway?)
dead stick - not required (same as landing)
recovery from inverted - not required
taxi - not required (nobody taxis through the pits where your $5000 plane is so let them run off into the dirt and ruin a few props)
stall - not required (most trainers won't stall anyway)
can they fly in the pattern - not required (the most experienced pilots don't do it so why should anybody else have to?)

stay on the correct side of the flight line - required (I'd say this one is the only one required. As long as this happens there is no safety factor involved. planes on one side, humans on the other so no matter how bad the crash is nobody is hurt.)

Any adult can ask for help beyond this.

Mike

rik1024

My Feedback: (1)

That is my point exactiy!!!. Thank you MikeMc.

Montague

Mike, you never have people crashing near the pits where you fly? Then you must have the most skilled, luckiest group of pilots on the planet, and nothing resembling a beginner around.

I agree that a lot of guys get stupid over rules, and that a lot of guys run around trying to use scare tactics to justify a lot of their over-active rule making.

But I've seen too many guys come out, claim they know what they are doing, then promptly yank a plane off the ground before it had flying speed, nose up, stall, nice graceful arc to the left, into the pits or parking lot. I had a guy pass a .40 size old timer right over my head (approximatly 20' up) and put a huge dent in the hood of a car, breaking the windshield etc. All because he didn't know how to take off properly. Just this weekend, a father was trying to teach is kid to fly, and the kit took off, turned left, and went right over the sun shelter and parking lot before the father got control of the plane and turned it around. Then there are the landing approaches, there the student pushes the rudder or ailerons the wrong way, and instead of heaing "outside" comes in and hits the pilot stands, or rolls in to the pits. Again, I've seen that happen plenty of times, especially if the wind isn't light and right down the runway.

I saw a guy do exactly this, try to taxi right back to his field box deep in the pits. On grass. Dumbass nearly hit a guy who was working on a plane.

Personally, I can't possibly see how anyone could be even vagely safe if anyone was allowed to fire up any plane they could afford and take a shot at flying it a on a busy sunday morning.

When I say "do a loop", I'm not talking precision, there is no "good loop" or "bad loop", or "not good enogh loop", just upside down and back rightside up. We aren't talking about making 3D pilots here, that statement was just stupid and way over the top of anything anyone has said.

Montague

On thing I just thought about.

I think I'd get along fine with Mike and such, I'm actually rather laied back, even if the posts don't sound like it. I don't do a "formal test flight" or use a real paper checklist. When students ask me what they have to do get signed off by me, I always reply "convince me you won't kill anyone".

And I'm always confident in my student's abilities when I sign them off.

The problem comes in when we have multiple people teaching and signing off students. They need to know that I'm not going to sign off someone I shouldn't, and I need to trust them, and the other 200+ guys in the club (some of whom have never met me, and may never meet me) have to trust us.

So they set up these "rules" to try to make themselves feel safer. And it mostly does that.

Stuff I've posted, I treat in a "show me you won't kill anyone" way, not in a "sorry, your loop isn't good enough to pass" way. When we do simulated deadsticks (or a real one if their engine quits) if the student makes a mistake and winds up in the bushes (or would have been in the bushes), that's still a "pass" as long as their decisions weren't unsafe. I don't care if you hit the runway, I do care if you freeze, panic, or do something that could be a problem.

There are others in my club who treat the same rules as a hard and fast list, and get real picky about that. I try to get my students signed off when these up-tight guys aren't at the field . I don't need someone telling my student their deadstick wasn't good enough.

MikeMc

I said at the very beginning that I don't suggest turning people lose to go crazy. I have seen planes go into the parking lot but only suggest that more rules will not change the percentage. I'd say that covered pits (sun shelter) with chainlink at the ends at least will help tons more than any effort put into teaching people not to fly into the pits.

There's 2 points I'm trying to get at here...

1) New pilots should be safe or taught to be safe. I totally agree with this. Heck I have my kids at the field with me and don't want them hurt.

2) New pilots should have tons of forced and unwanted hand-holding so they have fun and they don't damage themself or their plane. No No No. Let them crash their planes and cut off as many fingers as they want. Let them fly even if they're alone at the field. No difference from hiking, skiiing, etc. If they decide to fly alone and kill themself then so be it. Harsh you may say? I say, no, they are adults and can make adult decisions on their own even if it's the wrong decision.

I do realise that most of the problem is we have 5% of the world's population and 95% of the world's lawers. "Nobody told me it's a bad idea to go flying alone." That's total and complete BS.

Mike

MikeMc

Hey, I get along great with everybody at my field. Well some I don't but it's easy enough to setup at the other end of the pits. I do advocate a lot more for the underdog... can you tell? When the intructors screw off (some do) I'm the first one to get in their face.

Mike

Hintydude

Its been interesting reading the different rules you have in the states for each club.

In the UK we are governed by the British Model Flying Association. You are not allowed to fly without an instructor until you have passed the BMFA 'A' certificate for fixed Wing, Helicopter or Glider.
The examination is common to everyone who takes the test and comprises:-
1. Carry out pre flight checks.
2. Take off and complete a left or right circuit.
3. Fly a figure of eight course with the cross over point in front of the pilot, height to be constant.
4. Fly a rectangular circuit and approach with appropriate use of the throttle and perform a landing in a designated area.
5. Take off and complete a left or right circuit.
6. Fly a rectangular circuit at a constant height in the opposite direction to the landing circuit flown in 4.
7. Perform a simulated deadstick landing with the engine at idle, beginning at a safe height (approx 200 ft) heading into wind over the take off area, the lading to be made in a safe manner on the designated landing area.
8. Remove model and equipment from takeoff/landing area.
9. Complete post flight checks required by the BMFA safety codes.

In addition to the flying schedule the candidate must answer correctly a minimum of 5 questions on safety matters, based upon the BMFA safety codes.
It is also a requirement that you join the BMFA for an annual subscription of £23 GBP which also gives you £5million GBP public liability insurance.
There is also a 'B' certificate for more advanced flyer's. You are required to have a 'B' certificate before you can instruct.
At least you guys can set your own rules but as a personal point I believe it is common sense to have some sort of competency test. The only deaths you hear about are by people who do not respect the need for proper certification.

Scar

My Feedback: (3)

I just read all the posts, and I think I'll throw this in.

I train people who ask me. I accept the responsibility to get them to the point where they can fly safely, with a plane that will last beyond the training period.

I don't think I ask too much when I ask them to adhere to a schedule, for my convenience. After all, they asked me.

I think I'm obligated to help them learn to put the plane where they want it, without violating the airspace over the pilots or the neighbors. I also think I'm obligated to help them learn to recover the plane from attitudes other than upright, like stalls and inverted.

I give students feedback. When they can put the plane where they want it consistently, and can induce a stall (and recover from it) and maybe do a couple maneuvers, I start looking more like an ornament than an instructor. So I stick my hand in my pocket, and if I don't have to pull it out to make a save for two or three flights.... I show them, and tell them that my presence has become ornamental. Then I pull the buddy cord, and hand them the transmitter. I usually stand there for a flight or two, but by then they have the confidence to proceed alone.

If they don't ask for training, I can't help much. I hope they ask.

Good luck,
Dave Olson

Charlie P.

"We have only one rule at our field-which, I admit is out in the middle of nowhere, away from other "recreators"- don't be stupid."

So, if you get a bad egg or problem child, do you approach him after you're done crashing and point out to him that he's trying to fly on your frequency without a pin and say: "we, the collective club, have declared you stupid but it's up to you if you want to change once you get done taxing through the latrine."

Seems more civilized, if bureaucratic, to say: "this is your third violation of a serious rule and I'm asking the safety officer to have your flying privileges revoked until you talk to the club directors at the next meeting.

In a practice, I doubt if a member that did his share of voulnteer mowing and helping out at club races, events and contests would be evicted regardless of his ineptitude. It does provide a lever to get hazardous and unrepentant members out of the club.

It makes for a little less stress if everyone visits and avails themselves of the frequency pin board. Same if every pilot understands the concept of and can identify the active runway, the approach pattern, hollers "on the field" before stepping out after a plane on the runway, declares "Landing", "Deadstick", or "Taking Off" so others have a idea of what's happening around then while keeping their eyes on their aircraft. None of these things are required to fly a plane, but all are part of our basic pilot training.

Kenny R

Thats funny I like it... I think I've seen people that this method might be more effective.....

jettstarblue

Every one is a comedian......No we don't "declare anyone stupid".
What I'm saying, is we don't have a such a large number of flyers that we have to crowd them all into an area where they fly into/over cars/each other ect.

Take off, and immediately turn left over the pits?!? How you guys setting these fields up??!!?

I'm saying the only rule we have is- use common sense, and don't be a show off, unless you have it planned, and tell everyone in advance. (AIRSHOW!)

We all help the newbie, and when it's time for them to fly solo, we stand nearby in case of needed "assistance". We let them have the field for their first few flights, and when it's obvious they are fine we still keep an eye on 'em for awhile.
We don't have a problem with frequency pins, 'cause WE ALL TALK, GET ALONG, AND KNOW EACH OTHER(S) FREQUENCIES! If their are two planes on the same freq. they TAKE TURNS.
Guess we are all just lucky at H.A.R.P.
Oh yeah, if 'ya violate the rules more than once, we eat you....problem solved.

Jetts


Jetts

Montague

Umm, long runway, pits along side the runway, most guys nearer the center. Pits set back about 50' from the runway edge. Pilots stands 10' from runway edge, along center of runway.

Your average trainer can get off the ground with a takeoff run of maybe 20-50 feet. If the guy started near the end of the runway (because he taxied down there, or is pitted near the end and just went right out on the runway), then it's very easy to be airborne well before the mid-point of the runway, where the pilots stands are. I haven't measured, but I'd guess you could easily take a typical trainer, get it off the ground, and turn no more than 30 degrees in the wrong direction and hit a pilot stand. A "safer" setup would have takeoffs heading straight away from the pits, but that's pretty rare.

I wish we had a small enough club where everyone knew everyone else's frequency and got along, but we don't have that luxuary. With over 200 members, you can't know everyone. Heck, I went two years _knowing_ someone was on my frequency, but not having a clue who it was. It wasn't until I played hooky from work one day and actually met the guy who worked weekends but flew weekday mornings who was on my channel. There's no way I can depend on knowing who has what channel at the field on any given day.

I like that, I'll have to suggest it at the next club meeting. Sure would cut down on the crowds at the field when things get busy.

As for rules like "no flying alone", or "thou shalt adjust thy engine thusly", well, those kinds of rules I'd find really annoying, and I'd ignore them anyway.

I'm also glad we don't have the same kind of rules as you have in the UK, that sounds like a bit of a pain.

FHHuber

I posted a very good reason for not flying alone in another place... (can't find it...)

Kid takes his CL model to the local CL flying field (which is 5 miles and about 20-30 min by bicycle...)

No one at the field... but heck... its a pretty saturday, someone will show.... so he sets up. (it a long way to go without getting some flying in.)

By the time the lines are streched... and the fuel tank filled... no on has showed. So...he sets up a "stooge" (anyone thats done CL solo knows what it is) and proceeeds to start the engine.

Stupid balky engine refusing to start (smarter than the kid?[&:]) so he chokes heck out of it... In the process of choking the engine... the stipid thing "kicks" back and... slices the hell out of a finger. As the kid pulls his hand clear...the stupid engine STARTS and runs FINE.[:@]

Here we are... kid with lood gushing from a slashed finger... running model airplane engine... no one around. Only option available... rip the T-shirt and wrap the finger tight. Stick a boot in the prop.

No we got a ruined boot... a pair of prop blades flying off someplace (thankfully not into the kid...) and an overspeeding engine... (that doesn't last long either...) AND we still have this dripping blood comming out of the finger... through the rag wrapping it...
***********

Eventually... got the bleeding stopped... packed the plane up and rode the bike to a place I could get some help... bunch of stitches. Still got one heck of a scar from it. (almost 30 years ago)

MikeMc

Not a good example. Why, because you are talking about a child. All bets off talking about a child. Children need to be supervised.

Let me give another example. An adult does the same thing you described above except they die right there in a long painful death. They made an adult decision that they should know better to make. Sad but too bad for them. They live with, or in this case, die with their decision. I can't feel sorry for somebody killing themself out of stupidity doing something they knew they shouldn't be doing in the 1st place. Nor do I need somebody to make a rule to keep me from doing something stupid that only affects myself. Adults don't need and in most cases don't want any hand-holding.

An adult flying alone and doing so out of their own free will is NOT the same as a child doing it. Sorry to be so blunt and harsh but I'm not buying that example as it appies to adults. FHHuber, I am sorry this happened to you as a child and wish there was some safe guard that could have prevented it but we can't expect children to make adult decision.

Side note: I did almost the same thing as an adult. I held a towel around one hand, packup the car with the other and drove home. Yeah, it was stressful but I knew the risks and was able to deal with it when it didn't go right. I still fly alone BTW. I walk a half mile by myself from the store and didn't die alone the way, but I think anybody could make it. Would I go deep see diving by myself? No. I looked at the risks of lone deep see diving and decided it wasn't for me. Somebody else might though.

Mike

I might be able to beat you on the typos.