I don't know if it's me but I can not land with out rudder, I mean makes it hard for me to align the plane with the runway using only the ailerons, I fly with ailerons and smooth my turns with rudder. Should I practice more with the ailerons or I'm doing the right thing.

As long as it's under control and makes it down in one piece, I would say your good to go.



Neo

You can't land a big one without rudder either. You are doing great. Learning to use the rudder makes you a lot better pilot. I was trying to get a guy to use it the other night and there was no way. He is a good pilot, but if his ailerons quit, he would watch it fly into the ground. Not a good thing. Some people just refuse to use that left stick.

Your doing it the right way, keep practicing, being able to use rudder/aileron combinations allows you to fly in cross winds and will be able to fly with precision. Also, like Flyboy said, planes like the warbirds must be flown with rudder to maintain good control and prevent torquing over. You will make an excellent pilot.

Using the rudder is definitely the right way, as it reduces the risk of the wing stalling as you slow down before landing.

Using the ailerons is a major reason why aircraft that are prone to tip stalling snap into the ground, whereas the rudder is about the last control surface to stall.

David C.

Wish I had more students with this 'problem'.

John

Amen!!!!!!!! John

I know it should be the other way, but I don't know is easer for me with the rudder even for turns and to control the plane during slow flys( I love to do this, people get amaze how come a newbie can do this maneuver).

I had a student who was a full scale pilot. He was just naturally using the rudder, which makes sense. The funny part was that when I started him on landing approaches, there was a bit of a cross wind. So, what did he do? Yep, slipped it right in. (well, he was learning, so he acutally slipped it nicely, but missed the runway the first few times. )

You are doing great! My only suggestion is to fly with the rudder and "smooth your turns" with the ailerons.

-Wade

You need to learn to use the rudder and it sounds like you are doing just that. Keep it up and you will be a better pilot

definitely NOT true as far as landings go. The only reason you should be using ailerons when landing is to keep the wings level. You're landing the right way, which is great.

Rudder turns, especially when flying slowly, is a good thing. As others have mentioned, rudder turns will prevent tip stalls in high aspect ratio wings, such as on scale warbirds.

Aileron turns at higher speeds seem (to me) to be more effective, but you're certainly not doing anything wrong.
Dennis-

I have to say there is a lot of dangerous stuff being said in this thread about using rudder as the primary control to turn a plane. You do not turn a plane using rudder. It is a common misconception amongst model fliers who equate an aircraft rudder to a boat rudder. A plane is turned by inclining the wing lift to the side, by banking. That is what provides the lateral acceleration to make the plane travel in a circle. The fin keeps the plane pointing straight into its headwind and therefore provides the yawing part of the turn. The rudder is merely a trimming device for the fin to compensate for spiral airflow or design defects. The job of the fin, with assistance from the rudder, is to keep the plane straight into its headwind. If it is ever used to yaw the plane out of balance you get high drag, unwell passengers, and worst of all you have one of the 2 control conditions for a spin.

An aircraft flying with a side wind should be turned in the normal manner with ailerons slightly into the wind. Rudder is never held on when flying in a sidewind except in one instance. When the plane has to be pointing the same way as it is travelling while in a sidewind, i.e. on landing, you have 2 methods to choose from. One is to turn properly slightly into wind and approach with the aircraft pointing slightly off the direction it is travelling. This is by far the easiest way especially for model flying, and is the only way for gliders. You do have to give it a nudge of rudder to yaw out of balance just at touchdown otherwise the wheels are pointing off line. The other method is a sideslip where the plane is banked into wind but then opposite rudder is held on to prevent the plane yawing into the turn. This is more tricky in full size and far more tricky in models, and it does need to be held right to touchdown, landing on the lower, into wind wheel first.

I recommend that you get hold of a book called "Stick and rudder" which is widely regarded as the classic manual on handling an aircraft, it will open your eyes to how aircraft behave and how to fly them. The author looks forward to the day when aircraft are so well designed that they don't have a rudder (he wasn't thinking of aerobatics!)

Harry

Hi Harry,

I take exception to your some of your statements.

I don't equate an airplane rudder to a boat rudder at all. I grew up on planes and boats.

As far as the aileron vs. rudder argument, it's been around for decades, and I don't really expect to change your mind on it. I will offer a couple of thoughts and a simple experiment you can try if you get a chance to fly in a full scale plane.

First off, think about what each control does: The elevator doesn't make the plane climb or dive; it rotates it about the pitch axis. The ailerons don't turn the plane; they rotate it about the roll axis. The rudder doesn't turn the plane either; it rotates it about the yaw axis. It's important to understand that when one of these controls changes the attitude of the airplane, it affects the other flight surfaces.

In the case of rudder, consider a yaw to the right. When the yaw happens, the left wing will momentarily have a greater airspeed than the rest of the airplane, and the right will momentarily have less. In most cases, this will result in the left wing naturally rising because it's got more airspeed than the right (I say "most cases", because there are some aerobatic airplanes that have been specifically designed to reduce or eliminate this tendency).

Now let's consider a roll to the right with ailerons. The roll happens because you are causing the left wing to produce more lift, and the right wing to produce left. When we learned about the relationship between thrust, drag, lift and gravity, we learned that increasing lift also necessarily increases drag. Notice that in this scenario, we are increasing lift on the left wing. What do you think the airplane does about the yaw axis? If you guessed that it momentarily yaws *left* against the intended turn due to the increased drag, you would be right.

The "adverse yaw" with the ailerons is extremely difficult to detect with an R/C plane, but it's obvious in a full scale if you look for it. Thus, my experiment: If you have an opportunity to fly a full scale plane, get into straight and level flight and pick a point straight ahead on the horizon. Then gently roll the wings back and forth with the ailerons. You will see that the nose of the plane yaws left and right *opposite* of what the ailerons are doing. (Disclaimer: I am not a full scale pilot, but grew up an aviation family, and have done this demonstration many times.)

Also worth noting is that, no matter which side of the rudder vs. aileron argument you fall on, you will probably admit that it takes 3 controls to properly "turn" an airplane (This is a general statement, there are specific airplane designs that work differently. For example there are planes with aileron and no rudder, and vice-versa). If you use "too much" rudder and not enough aileron, you get a skid: The pilot figure in your R/C plane is pulled towards the outside of the turn. If you use "too much" aileron, the pilot figure is pulled towards the inside of the turn - this is a slip. He probably finds the slip more uncomfortable than the skid because he's grown up riding around in cars, which "skid" every time they turn, so he's used to it. To do a comfortable, coordinated turn, you need the right amount of both. The rudder folks turn with the rudder and coordinate with the ailerons. The aileron folks turn with the ailerons and coordinate with the rudder.

Finally, amoungst the controls involved in a turn, the one that actually ends up doing most of the work of changing the heading is actually the elevator

Comments, criticisms and other observations welcome,
-Wade

90% of RC planes can be flown without using rudder. Probably 90% of full scale planes can be flown the same way. Some full scale planes actually retract the rudder pedals out of the way after take off.

Many RC scale planes such as Cubs and other low speed aircraft require rudder to make coordinated turns but most do not. While flying my low speed ultralight (full scale), there is no way ailerons alone will make a turn. It must be led with rudder. Same with full scale Cubs. In the early days of flight the sole purpose of ailerons was to keep the wings level. All the WW I pilots that did this got SHOT DOWN!!

If the rudder was required to fly our models then why do so many neglect to use it? Because its not needed most of the time. Should you learn to use it? Of course. Other than trainers and other planes with moderate dihedral it is impossible to make anything but a wide flat turn with the rudder.
Harry has it right I think. Fly with the ailerons and trim with the rudder.

This is where there is a difference between Full Scale pilots and RC Pilots when in training. When learning to fly a full sized, you are taught to use the rudder in combination with the ailerons and elevator, which is detailed in what Harry C and even further to what Wade explains, to maintain altitude and heading. In RC, I have seen where students are taught either with just ailerons, or with just rudder. Many of the rudder only concepts come from the old days of two and three channel radios. I fly with a lot of guys that will simply not use the rudder because they have the concept that the ailerons work better and that the rudder is from the old days of flying. Seems they only use rudder to do tricks. This is why I see a lot of out of control landings and planes with high aspect ratios suddenly falling out of the sky.

I had my private license when I was being taught RC and was told by my instructor to leave the rudder alone. I did not agree with him because the rudder is needed to help maintain horizontal heading, so like you, I developed a feel early on to use combination rudder / aileron / elevator to maintain lateral control of the aircraft.

The book "Stick and Rudder" is a good book to explain this to newbies and I recommend it as well.

OK, my turn!

I'm going to be much shorter, and only relate it to things like attempting to stop a plane plummeting from the sky.

The fact is that a wing can partially or completely stall in many conditions. Two of these are very relevant to flying a model.

One is the tendency to snap which is a very complex process indeed and I won't bother to go into it here!

The other is a progressive or sudden stalling of the wing as the aircraft slows down.

The rudder, for many reasons, is normally the last control surface to stall, and is therefore the only one left to use in certain circumstances.

Anybody who has flown a rudder-only plane in the past (or a galloping ghost plane to all you ancient readers!) will probably tell you they managed to loop a rudder only plane! It is possible!

Using ailerons is the most logical thing to do when correcting unwanted roll, but can be disastrous when slowing down to land. Let's suppose the left wing has dropped and right aileron has been applied to correct it That means the left wing now has more lift and the right wing less lift. Unfortunately, the left wing also has more drag (higher lift = higher drag) and if this drag which makes the plane yaw to the left. If this yaw is too great (due to the aircraft being too slow) the plane will, in fact, roll TOWARDS the left wing, not away from it.

The result is the ailerons seem to work in the opposite way to expected and you find yourself inverted 5 feet from the ground!

Using the rudder simply avoids this difference in wing lift (almost) and you are more likely to land upright than inverted!

Oh! This posting wasn't as short as I wanted!



David C.

The "argument" only exists among modellers.

I do fly full size regularly, from gliders and biplanes to jet fighters. I do have some idea what I am talking about!

H

I'm at a bit of a disadvantage, since I'm not a full scale pilot.

My grandfather used to teach aerobatics, and ultimately accumulated over 8000 hours of general aviation time, most of it doing instruction. I can tell you very much first hand that this "argument" does exist in the real world. I witnessed it many, many times growing up. It's probably not so prevalent today because the "rudder crowd" is mostly "old school" pilots. Emphasis on the ailerons has been pretty prevalent in full scale instruction since the 50's or so.

My dad (35000 hours, most of it in airliners) also mentions that many pilots taught in the last 20 or 30 years under use the rudder. He doesn't argue about it, though (as opposed to my grandfather, who's a rudder activist.)

I really don't want to argue either, and I especially don't want to make a claim that somebody doesn't know what they are talking about. I just jumped in to reply because it is most definitely not always dangerous to use the rudder as the primary control for turning a plane. There have been a number of folks jumping in with examples of full scale aircraft which do not fly properly unless rudder is used in this way. There are certainly other examples (jet fighters come to mind) where they are designed to fly well using ailerons as primary control. I own some R/C planes that like heavy use of ailerons in turns (as well as one with no rudder at all). I would say that the best thing to do is "fly the plane you are in."

-Wade

Hi Harry,

Well, yes. But how many full size aircraft 'from gliders and biplanes to jet fighters' have the same tendency to do what we all see every day we go flying model aircraft? That of tip stalling into the ground?

Not many (I hope!!)

Beginners should have it in the back of their minds, at least, that changing the shape of the wing, by applying ailerons, can be exactly the wrong thing to do in certain circumstances, and, unfortunately, one of those circumstances is when they are near to the ground (when landing)!.

-David C.

Beginners should foremost keep in mind to keep their airspeed up so they aren't put in that situation, ie. too slow and too low. But yes they should also know what to do when it happens.

I'm sorry but know I barely know my name, what you guys mean is when I'm taking off I should use almost no aileron and steer the plane with the ruder so does when I'm landing, please try to keep your replys understandable for newbies.

You don't have to worry if you are fly a trainer (hence the term 'trainer'!) but, the thing to watch for is to use the rudder when flying slowly and the ailerons when flying fast. Of course, there are situations where this generalization isn't true, but its right for landing.


(generally!)

-David C.

The rudder is used to keep the plane straight into its airflow, not to yaw it out of the flow, unless you are doing an aerobatic manoeuvre that calls for it. In the full size we have the benefit of a slip ball in powered planes or yaw string on gliders, and that tells us which way to press the rudder to keep straight. If it goes off centre it means that you are yawed away from straight and you use the rudder to get you straight again. When slow flying it is all the more important to keep the ball/string in the centre, otherwise you lose speed, lose height, increase the stall speed and are more likely to spin. For instance if practising slow flight in a prop driven light plane at stall +5kts, the ball will tend to wander well off centre which means the plane is yawing and skidding around a turn. Rudder is used to keep it straight and stop it from turning. While in the cruise you might accept a tiny bit of off-centre on the slip ball to save you from getting a tired leg, you concentrate hard on keeping it centred when at very low speeds. Any yaw whether because of the plane’s tendency to yaw or because you are holding in the wrong amount of rudder, can be lethal. Remember that spins and flicks are caused by elevator and rudder. At the point of stalling the plane must be straight, the slip ball/yaw string must be centred otherwise the probability of a spin is greatly increased. That does not mean that the rudder is centred, it may be held off centre in order to keep the plane straight, but it is most certainly not used to move the plane away from straight. At very low speeds, turns are made with just a tiny amount of bank put on by small deflection of aileron, and require concentration on the slip ball to keep it centred by using the rudder. Note how all the time we are using rudder to keep the plane straight, to stop it from yawing and skidding around a turn. We most definitely to not use it to initiate or create a turn. No full size pilot would use the rudder to move the slip ball/yaw string off centre unless doing aerobatics or side-slipping, and therefore no full size pilot uses the rudder to initiate a turn. The turning force is created only by bank, and the fin and rudder keep the plane head on into its airflow. The rudder might be used in a turn to keep things straight, and all the more so when turning at very low speeds. You will be working the rudder all right, not to create the turn but to keep the plane straight to its airflow. You can try flying full size like a 3 channel model, and many will respond to the yaw by starting to bank. Your passengers will soon start complaining of feeling sick though, as every turn starts with a wallow as the plane yaws first and everyone feels themselves being pushed sideways, before the bank starts to occur. 3 channel models get away with it because there is no-one on board to feel sick.

If a model is flying so slowly that aileron reversal may occur and one wing stall, then it is flying too slowly, and using the rudder will equally flick it into a spin.

The only time I ever had the controls taken from me while I was learning was doing practice cable breaks in a glider. The instructor pulled the release at a height just sufficient to do one tight continuous circle of the field. Half way around he took control and I got an earful for using too much rudder and not watching the yaw string. He shouted at me to remember that elevator and rudder = spin and he had no intention of letting me get him into a spin 200feet off the deck.

I realise that 99% of the people reading this are in the USA, but if any of you should find yourselves in Gloucestershire England I will be more than happy to take you up in a plane, I will fly it to the stall+5 knots and you can press in rudder to try to turn the plane. I sure hope you don’t throw up when a plane spins!

H

Not to take exception to anybody, nor to argue: How many R/C fliers, 'specially in the early part of the learning curve (and sometimes forever after) don't even use the left stick? (at least in mode 2). Heh - 'firewall' the throttle, hoping it's going to go down the runway in the right direction, take off, back off to 80% throttle, then fly until it's time to land.

jucava is using his rudder - more power to him! Mode 1 fliers tend to use their rudder more, if only cuz of their age (*grin*) and the stick configuration. I was forced to use rudder (I admit it - I was a 'right stick' flier) by a mode 1 guy... "Hey, Rob!!! You're about to learn how to knife-edge your Goldberg Cub!!!"

It was an eye-opener, to say the least. Roll it on its side, kick in full rudder, then watch it rudder-couple its way horizontal again. Huh - try again. Roll/rudder/some aileron...Woohoo!!! I'm doing it!! Hmmm...what can you do with that? Let's try *this*!! Flat turns - not as a 'normal' way of flying, but to thrill and amaze your friends as well as learn to control the plane to do what you want it to do, no matter what it wants to do. Then sideslipping. Then 'crabbing' across the field..... then barrel rolls... Huh - this is fun!!!

More power to you, jucava - keep flying!!