nrad2000

I have successfully flown the Escapade for a few month. I was able to comfortably do loops, rolls, some hover, and stall turns. Of course all this is done really High in the Sky. Landings were never a problem. Most of them were nice and smooth. a couple were bouncy. Yesterday, I was practicing more aggressive landings. I would come in parallel with the runway about 15ft off the ground, turn really tight to bleed off most of the speed, level the wings and used Rudder to align with the runway, and touch down. I was able to do that twice successfully. The third one was looking really good. Even better then the 1st two. But this is when it happened. the wheels touched ground and the escapade bounced up 2 - 3 feet. Right wing looked like it began to stall. I gunned the throttle to redo the landing. The escapade continued to suddenly Roll Right, was almost inverted facing away from me, and hit the ground nose first.

Question:

1) what I experienced was a torque roll?

2) if the wind did stall what should I have done? Or, maybe there was nothing I could have done?

Damage assessment:

The engine and it's firewall was ripped off, the canopy broke in two, the right side of the plane where the canopy would sit on is gone, and the left wing leading edge (about a foot) is gone. The firewall and fuselage I can repair (need to refab some parts). I'm more worried about the Left wing.

RCVFR

My Feedback: (7)

A good landing brings the aircraft to the ground at minimal airspeed so that at touch down, it is at or near the stall. The landing process is to get the aircraft to lose altitude and slowdown, simultaneously. Easier said than done, since diving the plane to the ground to lose altitude will also build air speed. So, in the landing pattern, the downwind leg is the place to set up this "slowing and lowering" process so that when the plane is at the turn to final, it is where it needs to be for a smooth, wings level, minimal control input descent for landing.

For the landing set up, remember that elevator controls speed and throttle controls altitude.

From your description, it appears you came in at too slow a speed, at too great a sink rate so that when the plane touched down, it bounced due to the rapid sink rate but was no longer flying (stalled) and fell to its crash.

The sharp turn to bleed off air speed certainly does do that, but it's difficult to gauge how much speed has been lost. Plus, you need to have enough speed to maneuver at the same time lose enough speed to land the plane with out damage. This type landing approach is a bit more challenging. It looks cool when it doesn't destroy the plane.

jaka

Hi!

Definitely a stall! No torque roll! That doesn't exist with small glow powered planes!!!!

You would have two solutions! First one is... cut throttle and at the same time give down elevator and left aileron and as soon as the plane levels of ...give slightly up elevator and land.

Second is... give full throttle and quick down elevator and left aileron ....as soon as the plane levels off...give up elevator and climb!

This sounds easy in theory but if you are close to ground it becomes very tricky to perform![]

So the best advise is to practice so that you newer come in that situation.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

It did.

NOSE
DOWN

A wing stalls for one reason, and one reason only...it has exceeded its critical angle of attack. There is one, and only one, control surface that controls angle of attack. The elevator.

NOSE
DOWN

Sounds quite repairable. Some pictures would definitely help, but just from your description, seems like you should be able to remove the damaged portion of the left wing between ribs/ends, use existing ribs as templates, and away you go.

Roo Man

My Feedback: (1)

I had a rough landing with my Escapade this last Thursday. Was flying in 12 - 15 MPH wind almost straight down the runway. I came in high as I usually do with a fairly steep approach, and leveled off at about 30' to let down for landing, [I normaly land my Escapade rather fast] but this time I forgot the head wind and even with my normal fast landing it was not fast enough and it went down on the wheels just short of the runway in fairly tall grass. My depth perception is not as good as it once was and this definately contributed as I thought I was closer to the runway. I am going to move my touch down point down the runway a bit to hopefullu compensate for the depth perception.

Very little damage, the landing gear folded up and put two small holes in the wing. Just finished the repair and am ready to patch the covering.

I agree with gboulton, it sounds repairable.

Gary

ameyam

I had a similar issue with my Phoenix Tiger 40 last year, only at takeoff instead of landing. On that day, the wind was from behind the flight line. Not wanting to risk the just repaired airplane (I had a bird strike the previous week and I had just received the repaired airplane), I decided to taxi out as far as possible and then takeoff at an angle to the flightline. As I applied power, I was ready to apply right aileron and rudder knowing fully well that since I was taking off at a 30Deg angle to the wind, the thing would likely roll left. As soon as it left the ground it did just that and I applied the correction. However, it did not correct and cartwheeled. I broke the tail just in front of the stab and had a crack in the fuse. Got it repaired again but it never flew the same again (more jittery after that).

I have since moved on to other airplanes, mostly 3D airplanes so I havent had that problem and I hope I dont again. Guess what is hapenning is that these airplanes need airspeed to fly and if it isint there, the small control surfaces cant recover them.

Today, I just put back stuff in the airplane meaning to fly it in the monsoon as it is the cheapest I have. During balancing, I noted that the repaired wing was heavier and it required 35g wt in the other wing for lateral balance. Also, the tail was heavier than recommended and had to add 21g in the nose. Note that I had already added nearly 100g in the nose last year and this was in addition to that weight. That explains the jittery flying characteristics but isint that a great deal of weight?[&o]

Hope it flies better now

Ameyam

Dr1Driver

Stall.

Full power, nose down, rudder against the roll. Use the rudder because in a stall the ailerons might not be very effective.

Lnewqban

I must confess that I don't understand your description regarding the approach.

1) A torque reaction that is induced by engine torque (sudden rev up) will roll the model to the left (counterclockwise), as the propeller turns clockwise (using the cabin as reference view).

2) Agree with Gboulton above, but the height was not enough to recover airspeed over the wing.
Trying to use aileron down to stop the roll just agravates the stall, since the effective AOA increases.
Better to nose down at the first sign of bouncing up, before the stall develops.

Read:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_89...tm.htm#8947745

Sorry about the damage.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Oh...they'll be plenty effective...

Effective at increasing the angle of attack of the stalled wing!

Other than that...no...they're not going to do much. *heh*

Good advice, Dr1...rudder against the roll.

nrad2000

test

nrad2000

fixable? what kind of wood should I look for? scroll saw would be ok?

Dr1Driver

Very fixable. Jigsaw all the pieces back together. Replace wood that's too badly damaged or missing with the same type. Use balsa or thin ply on the inside to reinforce the pieced-in places. If the firewall is too badly damaged to repair, make a duplicate. Cut the wood carefully and make it fit right. Don't rely on glue to fill large gaps - it will be structurally unsound. However, you can use thin CA to soak the inside of the area. This will make the repair very strong. The wing is easy. Use an angled-end splice to replace the LE, and simply lay down replacement sheeting. It looks like you have enough rib there for the replacement sheeting to rest on.

You'll be using a jig or band saw, probably an X-acto saw, and an X-acto knife. Maybe a drill (holes in the firewall. Sandpaper and putty, too. Thin and thick CA.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Agree...quite fixable, using ust the ideas/methods Dr1 suggests.

Roo Man

My Feedback: (1)

I notice that you have quit a bit of weight in the nose. I did the same thing when I first got mine but later found that by putting the battery under the tank deck just behind the firewall that mine balanced perfectly with an OS 46.

Gary

nrad2000

I don't have a band saw. Nor do I have fine wood working tools. I do have an X-acto saw and X-acto blade. What can I use to cut straight on a 1/4" plywood and make round curves? I don't have one but can I use a Dremel Multi Max tool (oscilating)? what about a scroll saw? I'm willing to go out this week and get some fine wood working tools. Any recommendations?

jooNorway

[quote]ORIGINAL: gboulton


It did.

NOSE
DOWN

A wing stalls for one reason, and one reason only...it has exceeded its critical angle of attack. There is one, and only one, control surface that controls angle of attack. The elevator.

NOSE
DOWN

[quote]

No, also giving left ailerons when the right wing stall do make the AoA worse. Thus trying to recover from one wing stalling using ailerons makes everything worse.

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

I wish I had some clue what you were talking about....i'm FAIRLY certain you just said the same thing I did...but I'm not sure.

rambler53

My Feedback: (494)

I love fixing crashed planes. It will take longer but you can use your xacto knife, the saws just save time. Wiping out a new sharp blade is a lot less expensive to get the chore done, even on plywood, just strike over the same cut several times.

In the end you might discover building a kit is more satisfying than building an ARF especially when a landing speed mishap occurs. Kit damage is almost always far more forgiving than ARF damage under the same situation. A similar yet much stronger plane is a SIG Kavalier, Hobby Horse has then in stock for $72. Anyway, that's another thread.

You'll want to cover the joints in your repair with something like epoxy and a strip of thin fiberglass material. These generally require nose weight, so you can remove your lead segments now, recheck CG when you're done.

jaka

Hi!
I have been building and constructing model planes for 36 years and if you don't have a small band saw the best saw is a small Japanese wood working saw.
An X-Acto saw is no good!
I also recommend a wood working knife with expendable cut off blades and an X-Acto nr 11 knife.
A must is also a 25-30cm long aluminum U-beam for sanding and of course the best sandpaper available: The Portuguise made Indasa "Red line" Rhino dry sandpaper!
3M and Norton have nothing compared to this sandpaper !

hllywdb

Nrad,
Don't feel bad. Most likely, there was no combination of control that would have helped. You needed altitude to recover from the stall. With the large wing of the Escapade, by the time you have stalled, you are too far below VOC for any of the controls to have helped much, and adding throttle just added to the roll, I know, I've seen me do it!

Once you get the plane rebuilt and flying again, you may want to get high up, and let the plane stall a few times and get used to how it stalls, and which wing it wants to drop. However, while you are rebuilding it, you may want to check the wings for warp, which you can usually remove with an iron or heat gun while slowly twisting the wing the opposite way of the warp. You could even put in a bit of washout on the wing tips (both wing tips slightly warped flatter than the rest of the wing) so the tips keep flying even as the main wing starts to stall.

nrad2000

what kind of balsa do I use to wrap the wings in 3/32" x something x something? I went to my local hobby shop and found the same kind of balsa but it was way too thin - 1/32". I'm just wanting to know what kind of balsa it is so that I can order more from Towers. Also, I noticed the balsa on the body of the plane is harder/denser - its not plywood. that kind of balsa the hobby shop has plenty of.

Dr1Driver

Balsa typically can weigh between 4 and 14 pounds per square foot. For our use, it can be categoried into 3 types.

"A" Grain - Lightest in weight. Light color, not much grain pattern. Easy to bend without splitting. Typically used in gliders, wing sheeting, and other applications where it must be formed around a shape. Often called "Contest" balsa, and is specifically available from bulk suppliers like BUSA, Lone Star, and Superior. You will occasionally find some in hobby shops.

"B" Grain - Medium weight and flexibility. A good all around wood for general building use. More pronounced grain pattern. Good for fuselage sides.

"C" Grain - The heaviest and strongest grade. Doesn't bend much without splitting, so use it for flat applications. Very hard with a pronounced grain pattern, often grayish in color. Good for bulkheads or wherever much strength is needed.

For your wing, match the thickness with what's already on there.

nrad2000

I must have "A" grain. I picked up 1 sheet from LHS (1/32"x4"x36). It was too thin. I believe I need 3/32". I took a small piece of that balsa and tried to bend it around the Leading Edge - and wow, it split. Do I need to prepare the balsa so that it is more flexible? I figure a 3/32" would split earlier.

nrad2000

What is "AAA" grade?

gboulton

My Feedback: (15)

Balsa is much easier to bend/form if you get it wet first.  A simple spray bottle can accomplish this task.

For what it's worth, many feel that you can get even more flexibility out of the sheetiing by adding something to the water.  Lots of folks suggest ammonia.  Personally, I've found that a bit of bleach seems to help.  Though I've never 'researched" it, i suspect nearly anything that helps break down the water's surface tension helps.

Finally, don't try to bend the balsa too much perpendicular to the grain.  It won't go far that way before breaking.  bending along the grain (parallel) you can achieve some pretty dramatic shapes with some patience and practice.