Hello! That is exactly the point I made and isn’t it great!

I think he meant a current pattern plane. Like this attached pic: does this really look liek a Lanier Stinger to you? This is my plane. I really can't see any resemblance at all.

And who said anything about being offended? Relax bro, we're talking toy planes. LOL! I'm just not a big fan of that sort of design. It's a flying stick, for christ's sake.

-Mike

This is a fun discussion. Thank you for your opinions, Mike. I was very interested in learning from your experience that the Dirty Birdy's and U.F.O.'s are much better than a Kaos. (Yes! I'm going to build one!) I don't have anything particular against a Kaos, just that it seems like a D.B. /U.F.O. are really no more difficult to build, so why mess with the Kaos?

I can see the point from an historical perspective, though. Personally, I would be much more likely to build a Taurus or Orion - for the nostalgia - than invest $1000's for a state-of-the-art cookie cutter pattern plane of today.

As you said, just an opinion - I'm as far away from being an expert as one can be.

Well, I don't consider myself an "expert", but I do have a little experience with design and competing.

Personally I love the UFO, it's the plane that got me interested in pattern in the first place. I remember getting that Tower Catalog and there was Joe, pencil thin mustache, sunglasses, holding his "new" UFO. I almost had a cow I wanted it so bad. I hate to let this one go, because it was Joe's personal plane, and it's autographed....and the freakin electric retracts still work! But I realize that because of what it is, I'll never fly it, and it's gathering dust in my shop. I did see it fly once, and it was a rocket! I loved it, but it was a missle and it's also very heavy.

But compared to the Kaos, it's apples and oranges. It's just a better plane. The Great Escape was even better, I had one of those too. If Joe was designing current 2 meter planes I'd have one (and yes I know about the 2 meter birdy, but it's just a big dirty birdy).

Personally I love planes from that era like the Curare and the Tiporare etc, but you have to fly them like they were meant to be flown, fast and screaming. They ARE dated designs, but I like them a lot. I just don't care for the flying box look of the Kaos, it's just before my time I guess. And it doesn't fly good enough to stand out in any way to make it anything special. So, it's just not for me. And it's not great enough to recommend it for someone else looking for a plane to do what the original poster was wanting to do with it. There are better planes out there. I still say the Widebody 60 is the best plane of it's size, flying wise, out there today. It just totally kicks butt, and it IS something above and beyond. THAT plane I could recommend easily (and have a million times I think).

To each his own, to me a Kaos is just a flying box...stick...something.

-Mike

So, in your opinion, what important technical features and/or rule changes in the past few years makes a 2m plane of modern design "modern"?
So far, all I read is that you don't like this or that because you "don't like them".

Allrighty then. I thought I already touched on some of this in my first post, but perhaps you just didn't read it. I'll make this one bigger so you can't miss it

Lots of little things, but 2 that jump right out: The turnaround style of flying (the box) and much more rudder intensive manuevers.

The box is the easiest to address, so I'll do that one first. The old style patterns had one centered manuever, no turns scored (except landing sequence, etc). After much competition and pushing the envelope, for the size/power restrictions of the day, the best way to handle this and score well was to do it at a relatively fast speed. AKA "ballistic" pattern. Do a split S, go full throttle, get on the pipe, nail your manuever, and strwak the hell out of the other side.

With the 60 degree box, this style of flying simply won't work today. Although some still fly fast and get away with it, it doesn't score well, and you rarely have time for the mandatory straight line between manuevers. Constant speed flying, which means the plane tracks a down line at the same speed as an upline, is what scores the best and presents the best.

Rudder intensive stuff: tons and tons of point rolls, knife edge, etc. While planes like the Kaos WOULD knife edge and point roll, the speed had to be relatively high to achieve and real smoothness in the line. Modern 2 meter planes do this at a much reduced relative speed and give the pilot more time to place his center and turnaround manuevers. Also the Kaos is not a "rudder neutral" plane, and requires a good bit of mixing. Since the plane must now be kept at about 150 meters throughout the entire pattern, MUCH more rudder is needed to maintain proper track. While if you drifted slightly one a center manuever in the old days you may get away with it, (because you could turn around any way you wished) today your turnaround is scored and if you have to do something drastic to get the plane back on track at the desired distance, you're dead meat.

Also the 2 meter planes just fly better period. They track better, they are smoother, the reynolds numbers work better, let's face a cold hard fact: size matters. Today there is no restriction on power, so even though a plane may only be 2 meters and 11 lbs, they can get HUGE within those parameters. They are sleek, curvy, and matched so that they are neutral and require very little mixing.

Lastly, the designs are just plain better. They are more refined. Wouldn't you agree that an F-22 flies much better than a P-40? It's called progress, like it or not. EVen in the 60 sized range, the Widebody 60 for instance is a VERY refined airframe, taking the best of all worlds and combining them into a solid performing package. The drawback is that you need more power, but it's worth it. There are many design advantages of a current plane, but ONE that jumps right out is a somewhat curved fuselage. Would you not agree that a round fuselage works MUCH better in a crosswing than a freakin square box? That airfolied tail surfaces produce a much smoother track than flat boards? That a smooth contoured nose penetrates much better than a square block of wood with a big engine sticking out in the airstream? I could go on for hours here....

I'd make sure I flew both a Kaos and any modern 2 meter design before I became a Kaos cultist, repeating the same mantra as so many before you have repeated for damn near 40 years: "A Kaos is a great flying plane, a kaos is a great flying plane, a kaos is a great flying plane, Ohhhmmmm ohhmmmmm.....". News flash: It's old, the 60s are over.

Now some people love the old style of pattern, me included. That's why the SPA exists. But if I flew it, it damn sure wouldn't be with a Kaos. It flies like a very old sport plane, there's no other way to describe it. You either get it or you don't. You've either outgrown it or you haven't. You can either feel the differences and the drawbacks or you can't. There's NO comprarison between a Kaos and a modern 2 meter plane. It's like the difference between your first trainer and a BVM Bandit. It's not even in the same ball park.

And no, I don't like it because I don't like it, Sam I am. I don't like it in a house, I don't like it with a mouse, and I don't like green eggs and ham....or Kaos's.....Sam I am.

I hope that answered your question somewhat, because if it didn't tehre's simply no other way to explain it. Just fly a Kaos, then fly a ZN Supreme, and you tell ME what the differences are.

-Mike

Mike,

Get off your soap box. You don't get it do you!!! There are a lot of older RC flyers who truly love the vintage pattern airplanes including the Kaos. There is enough room in this world for everyone. Fly whatever you like. Let us fly what we like. Stop trying to convert everyone to your way of thinking. We understand what you are saying. It's a shame that you don't understand what we are saying. As I said at the beginning, "get off your soap box"

Richard

Dude, this thread is four months old. Let it go.

ROFLMAO!!!!!!

Okaaaaayyyyyyy..................

Man fly what you want. Who cares. Didn't you get that from my posts? I just said a Kaos was dated, and it is. No soap box here. if you wanna fly a box with wings made of cardboard, be my guest. I'll even cheer you!!!!

I was just explaining why a Kaos ain't all that in today's sportsman pattern, that's all. It's old. Period.

-Mikey

I think the point here is when COMPARING a Kaos' flight characteristics to almost any pattern ship designed in the last 10 years or so, there is simply no comparison. You REALLY have to fly both types back-to-back to really appreciate how different they are.

It's Shopping Cart vs. Corvette. Really, it is.

The only reason to fly a Kaos over all the fantastic flying purebred pattern aircraft out there today is because you LIKE it better than the purebreds for whatever reason, nothing more.

Yeah, a Kaos flies OK. Not spectacular. Just OK. But, compared to WHAT? The old Sig Kougar I flew back around 1980 flew a LOT better than the Kaos, IMHO (at least the Kaos's I flew). Lots of planes from that era flew better than a Kaos. Lots flew worse.

There is simply NO comparison to anything current, like Mike said. But that certainly doesn't mean it's not OK to fly a Kaos. Just don't expect to win any pattern contests with it, unless everyone else is flying one too.

I think that's the point trying to be made here.

Rick

I agree with you 100%. Let's let it go. I'll just go out and enjoy my Kaos. It's a nostalgia thing.

Uh, what is wrong with SPA flying, MHester? You mention the SPA over and over like it is something inferior. They are holding the Masters at our field this year, so I've seen them fly. I see a Widebody 60 fly whenever I want to, and I've flown it a few times. I'm building a WB 40 at the moment. I'm just wondering what you have against the SPA competition? Maybe you think your pattern flying is superior to theirs? Sure sounds like it to me.

I had an SPA plane I just sold; it won the golden eagle in 2001 in sportsman. A Dennis Hunt Daddy Rabbit with an OS 91 and then an OS .61. Got it from the guy who won it, and was practicing it myself, just never got around to competing in it.

I Like them both, I just can't seem to find the time to compete in SPA, AMA pattern is taking all of my time and attention. I'm not sure where you gathered I'm anti-SPA. It's simply different.

-Mike

I've been reading this thread with quiet interest and decided to throw in my two cents on the topic. Quite honestly, in Sportsman and Intermediate you could fly a Taurus, Kwik Fli III, T2A, Tiger Tail, or any of the "Kaos" variants and win. No reason not to. Pattern birds are by design, "pattern" specific. Sure, turnaround took care of the Brushfires, Atlantas, and EU1As, simply because they were too fast. Again, they weren't "designed" for turnaround. In the lower 2 classes, where the figures aren't flown as quickly, the "old" birds would do just fine. A loop is still a loop, a stall turn is still a stall turn..etc.... and any of these "dated" designs in the hands of a practiced pilot could win in any event in the country....in the lower two classes. Keep in mind that pattern is about lines and symmetry, not speed. Above that.. you better have better than Jedi reflexes!!! I fly both types of planes.. again, each type designed for a totally different use. You don't fly an A-10 to dogfight an F-16, but you don't do low level ground support with an F-16 either... again.. mission specific airframes.

Enjoy the differences guys...pattern needs to make a comeback...Fly what you have and enjoy every minute of it. Maybe I should stretch out an EU1 A to two meters??? Could happen....

Dan

A 2 meter EU1 would kick butt!!!!!

Well ok with just a few tweaks maybe, it'd be a fine plane at 2 meters. You'd just have to tweak the aerodynamics just a touch, but it could still be very EU1-like.

I would still like to see SPA have a division for the Ballistic pattern planes like the Tipos. I'd be all over that! But alas, it won't happen.

-Mike

I think I'll hold onto my old Tipo.

Because...you never know.

Rick

me too, I fired up the old hippo tippo the other day, WOW I forgot how much fun it is. My 8 year old is going to fly it in pattern this year. That is going to be cool, he thinks he's going to show up the old man, I told him "he don't quite know it all yet" (I hope)

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha, you guys make me laugh. It was fun looking at all the opinions and counter opinions on a very simple subject. Today is kinda gorgeous here in NE Florida, really it is. About 40 degrees, about 25 mph with gusts to 40, and drizzly. I think that's just grand!!!
I get to BUILD. Yeay!!

MattK

On a light note---

I was able to get ahold of an old Supra-Fly 45 and a YS-60RE/ pipe combo. so I can have my 80's style pattern plane with retracts!

I know that it will not outperform the Excelleron with the YS-1.10 that I have flown recently, but I wanted an old-school Pattern ship. I have flown the Kaos and super Kaos, great flying sport airplane- limited in perf. compared to many new designs!

Good times either way!

I still eyeball these Curare plans every now and again and wonder what it would be like with a Jett-Fire .91, 11x8 prop, full pipe and spring air retracts........

Anybody got a radar gun? Hehe. What wind? Phooey.

Yeah this was a fun subject, I laughed a LOT while typing some of it. And I still don't like a Kaos, Sam I am.

-Mike

Mikey you should build the Curare if you have the plan. Better yet, please make me a copy. It would fly about 100-110 with the piped 60's of 25 years ago which wasn't really unmanageable speed. You'd like it if you flew the old style pattern. And if you built it light enough, you can prop it down with a stretched pipe, and it would do a respectable job on today's pattern.

Hey BTW, I flew a Kaos all the way into Masters competition when my main ride went down, quite some years ago now. It was and still is a pretty good pattern trainer and not terribly fast compared to something like an Arrow or Curare. But much too stable for what we do now to be a serious contender in higher classes at Nats level competition. However, I would bet it could hold its own in the right hands, at local comps through at least Intermediate.

cheers

matt

I'll run ya a copy, NP. I am probably going to build it when my big project is out of the way. Wanna see who can build a kooler one???? (I know you'll win, but it'll make for a couple of sweet planes!)

I've just never been a Kaos fan, and I love to tease the Kaos cultists I had a few, liked them ok at the time, but it just became clear there were better planes to do what I wanted to do. So the only real reasons I can see to have one is nostalgia, and simplicity. (at this time anyway). Same with the Curare, but personally I just love that plane! Ever flown a UFO, how do they compare?

I've got original Mach one plans too, but the straight LE freaks me out......

-Mike

I’ve always thought the Howard Engineering Kiwk-OS was a cool compromise. It has the thick Kaos wing and Kaos tail feathers with a Kwik Fli fuselage. It’s SPA approved too http://www.seniorpattern.com/planes.asp Smooth lines and no boxy look!

yes on the UFO. It flew okay but the Curare wins hands down. Just a better balance of properties overall. Zero coupling in any axis. Hans Prettner, Hanno's father, was an excellent designer as was Wolfgang Matt.

UFO had a very large stab and you know how I feel about overstabilized pattern models. The Escape was similar if I remember right. I had actually calculated the TVC of the Curare and it was somewhere around 0.75 if I remember right. In contrast UFO had a TVC of close to 1 which is excellent for a high wing trainer but too much for an aerobat. But then again, for the maneuvers we flew back then, it did just fine most of the time.

The Curare, built wih today's knowledge and materials would be around 6 1/4 lbs, maybe lighter, and would have very equivalent wing loading as today's models. A good 60 would be great, a OS90 overkill, and a YS 90 heli engine ridiculous. Let's do it

Matt

You're on!

-Mike