Notice in the picture above the right vertical has a bulge. I will probably sand through a bit of the glass getting rid of it but the polyurethane is thick in this area so I've still got strucure to susport the finishing putty.

Tim,
a "later development" detail for the Vertigo was to add 3/4" to the tailpost (chordwise). I did this on mine and I recommend it. It adds a little fin area and moves the rudder hinge line back away from the elevators. I used balsa. Maintain the same thickness I.E. do not taper it aft or your rudder will be too thin.

Looking good so far.
-Robert

Ok, looks like I need to add 1/4 to it then. Afterwards I'll put a light layer of glass on it and blend it in.

Did you get my email? I was rambling about comparing this to some other planes. I found your pictures on the other site sitting next to a Phoenix 7...then the light went off in my head. So this is going to be a faster flying plane 'me thinks' like the P7. I've heard a little scuttle but about the P7 and I think the problem may be flying it too slow. Then last weekend I saw a guy named Rick Byrd fly one like it was on a string tied at each end of the field, and he never flew the plane before that day but he did so at WOT. It was beautiful. Since H9 is dropping the P7 this may be the only way to get a plane with that configuration.

It is amazing how it looks like back when the designers were scrounging around for a new design they went dumpster diving after an event and found a mostly in tact P7 and the stab off a Curare and made a Frankenstein. Hmmm, good idea for a color scheme. But I'll take her, she's beautiful.

Thanks, Tim

Tim,
I received and replied to your e-mail.
You hit the nail on the head, these planes are meant to fly with the throttle full forward. Don't try to fly them like a contemporary 2 meter aircraft. You will find the Vertigo to be even faster than the P-7 given the same power. Power it up with something good and you will have vertical power, speed and a locked on feel that won't get old any time soon.
-Robert

Ok, the stab has been extended to 3/4" and a couple layers of glass were applied. Next a coat of finishing putty so it can all get blended in.

That looks great!
-Robert

It looks a bit tall on the back part, better thin it down a bit.

I put a t-square on it fuselage while it was suspended and if I line the 4' square up with where the wing chord line goes and put a 1x2 board as a spinner it looks like I have 2* down thrust and 1/2* left thrust so the minimum I need to do is get that left thrust out and some of not all (probably all) of the down thrust out.

So once the stab is smoothed out, we'll make a wing mock up and get our incidence datum from that point and then double check the nose.

Thanks for your support Robert, it keeps me going. Lord knows I've got other projects to do.

Ok, I lied, this guys plane that is in the photo is the one that keeps me going, the red one. But you help a bit Robert...lol. It's cool to see a Vertigo II next to the Phoenix. I may need to research the stab addition. I don't want to get into a debate about it but you know why...

I have a question though, what are the clothes pins for? Bladder tanks? I'll be using one for the first time. I got a 6 oz to use in the DB but when I move up from Novice I might run out of gas.

Clothespins: I use Du-Bro switch mounts in fiberglass fuselages. My theory is that they decouple the vibration to the switch to some degree. Switches that are mounted directly to the fiberglass side tend to be short lived. So does the airplane. At least that has been my experience. Anyway, I set mine up so that in is on. The clothespin is just the right width to act as a safety device, preventing accidental turn-ons.

The extended tail post and details regarding anhedral are buried somewhere back in this very thread. Scott Anderson had a telephone interview with on of the designers, that is the source of the info. If I run across it, I will post a link.

More Vertigo trivia:
The Vertigo is an offshoot of the Phoenix series (6 & 7). The wing planform, area, tail moments and areas are identical. The airfoils are different. The deeper belly dropped the nose line a bit to solve the infamous Phoenix fuel tank level problem. (Look at a P-8 sometime. Same idea. Wonder where that came from?) The nose is about an inch longer to accommodate the then new pumped engines and to allow the nose gear to retract without cutting into the wing LE.
Having my own P-7 and the Vertigo, They are similar in flight, but they have distictly different "personalities". The P-8 on the other hand much much closely resembles the Vertigo in handling qualities.

-Robert

6 oz is a VERY small tank for a pattern plane. I don't know what engine you're running but you most likely won't get more than 4-5 minutes. That might not even get you through the Novice pattern if you have to wait to take off - if someone is landing for instance. IMHO, 12 oz is about the ABSOLUTE MINIMUM tank size for a .61.

Just my 2¢ worth.

Jim
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I have a 12 oz now. It takes 63 cranks to fill it and after I finish the round I only put 13 cranks back in it with a Thunder Tiger Pro .61. It's on a Super Kaos at 7.5 lbs and I use throtle management so I don't think a 6 oz with an OS .55 is too far out IF it's flown in the same maner and has the same weight which for the DB I think I'm right on spot. However I based that on the TT Pro which is an work horse that is broken in and a plane with a fat airfoil and can tollerate throttle management. I think the DB will be fine but not the Vertigo. Based on what I've heard about the Phoenix I'll be looking at a Novarossi or Jett or something like that. It's all going to come down to weight. We can get a DB to 6 - 6.5 lbs so that opens up a lot more oportunity IMO. Time will tell but I'll share the info.
Plus with a bladder tank you can use close to 100% of the fuel. The 6 oz 'snaps' into the canopy so with a little silicone it should be out of the way to put a 4 oz tank on the CG as a header tank.
I do respect your opinion Jim and you voiced something that keeps echoing in my head. I'm just guessing till I get it in the air...keep'er high!

ST,

Sounds like you are doing fine on fuel. I obviously wasn't following your previous post. I guess I'd also forgotten how short the Novice pattern is. Besides, I haven't flown pattern 61s since the 80s. My last competitive pattern experience was back in 2000 flying the 2-meter OMS shown in my avatar running a piped Bully (Webra) 120LS 2-stroke and flying the Masters turnaround pattern. That's a major differnece in fuel usage and length of the pattern compared to Classic Novice,

Disclaimer - I've never flown a Vertigo. With that said, I'm going to differ with some fo the others on the NEED for a Jett or NovaRossi in almost ANY 60-size pattern plane. Well, the EU-1A might be an exception. I flew a 10 3/4# EU-1A in Novice/Sportsman back in the day with an OS 61FSR turning a Zinger 10.5x7.5 prop north of 14K on 10% nitro fuel. I couldn't do 500' tall loops, but I had plenty of power for anything I NEEDED to do.

IMHO needing a Jett or NR falls into the same category as saying 100+ in-oz servos are necessary for 60 size pattern planes. It's GROSS OVERKILL IMHO.The EU-1A above flew with Futaba S121 servos at about 50 oz-in of torque and NEVER had a problem. Of course, YMMV.

BTW - I remember when Rick Byrd was just a teenager. We flew at several of the same contests in Oklahoma and Texas many moons ago.

Jim
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My Vertigo first flew with a muffled Magnum .61XLS (13,100 rpm on an 11/7 APC). This is more tha adequate power for this aircraft, as previously stated the Vertigo is a faster design than the Phoenix. You will not have "unlimited" vertical performance, but then that is unnecessary for Novice class flying.

The Vertigo now sports a piped OS .65AX (Approximately equal to the Rossi) and not only is it much faster, but now has the vertical performance for Masters.

-Robert

I couldn't get any of the wing profiles to fit the fuselage but the NACA 0016 fits perfect. I wonder if at sometime someone tried copying the profiles from the plans which are notoriously wrong. I'll have the original wings this week to compare to.

Ok, after a lot of sanding, fitting, puttying, sanding, measuring...it's ready for molding.

I projected the plans onto the fuselage with the overhead projector to make sure the wing is in line with the thrust line (red line) and we lucked out, everything looks good...knock on wood.

Some guys are showing up to build night tonight but I don't think we'll get any glass on it since we need to glue strips on the underside to keep the clay from pushing through and fill in around the wing saddle.

I chose not to paint the fuselage so I'll get several layers of wax and PVA on it to make sure it releases.

Looks great guys. Knock it out of the park!
-Robert

Man Robert, was your fuselage this fragile? I had to pour about a quart of plastic (about 800 grams) in it to stabilize it. But then again we are molding it, not flying it. I'm sure the stabs and wing stiffen it up some.

We heated the Y2Clay to fill the seams and it works great. We got it sealed up with clay, waxed, and PVA'd but what I forgot was that Polyurethane plastic is heat sensitive so I have a new bubble and valley in the vertical stab that I fixed [:@]

I took the wax and PVA off the tail and just waiting for the spot putty to set up a bit and then I'll rewax and PVA tonight so it probably won't be till this weekend when I can get the mold done.

I wanted Steve there anyway since it's his plane and he had a commitment tonight so maybe it worked out for the best.

I was originally going to fly this fuselage, but the engine mount points about 2 degrees left. No fixing that. So it became the plug. It is moderately brittle. The one that I am flying is as tough as nails. I have one more in reserve, and it is like a cigarette ash.

Here are some pics of my plug. I am reworking the saddle area, and toning down the bulges at the rear of the fillet. I presume that hey are there to make room for the hardwood blocks that were in vogue for the wing bolts back in the day. I don't dig or endorse that method, I use as ply plate (see back in the thread.) Much better load distribution. You guys are inspiring me to get back to it. I have a new 2 meter to assemble, then i think I am going to pick back up where I left off.

-Robert

Slightly off of the current topic....

After running out of fuel on 2 of 5 flights flying through the new CPA masters pattern, it was time to add some additional fuel capacity to the existing 16 ounces already aboard. My solution is to add a 4 ounce tank connected in series with the main tank. The tank is mounted to a platform which bolts to two rails glued inside of the wing saddle flanges. The engine runs great, I did not even have to touch the needle.

The result is I can take my time and fly it "big and proud". No need to peddle the throttle. It is a load off of my mind to have some overhead on fuel when flying an almost irreplaceable airplane like this one. I have about 20 flights on this set-up with zero problems.

-Robert

That is a lot of repair in the saddle area. I hope I'm right about this one being made correctly or I'll be making a new mold.

The first one I pull will be thick so I can use it as a plug later if I need to. I managed to get the stab back in shape. I'm not as pleased as I was before but I think it will come out fine. There's a small dimple but that can be smoothed out of the mold.
I just put the last thick layer of PVA on it. You can see in the photo it's really straight so I think the PVA may be filling the dimple...good with me.

The plane next to it is a Cutlass that I need to get to at some point too but I know what you mean about the motivation in seeing other guys planes. Every time I see yours I think, 'man, I gotta get this thing done'. It's too wet to paint the Dirty Birdy anyway so I might as well keep busy. It makes nice breaks while drawing in CAD all day.

I might just have to glass this side tomorrow because I can't wait for the weekend. I've gotta get one pulled so I can see how it comes out.

Later,
Tim

BTW, notice in the photo how much filler I have on the stab fillet. My stabs were at an angle, is that the way yours are (this one was worse then the other so I had to match them). I figured it just gives you a fillet for the stab and wasn't like a partial stab like they use in plug in stabs.

Again, I have seen variation in the various fuselage samples that have crossed my hands. I will work it on my plug as you did, but I make big stab fillets with microballoons anyway when I build (I like sculpting those flowing shapes on the airframe). I am anxious to see you first pull.
Keep up the good work.
-Robert

Surface coat is on. I tried carbon tow around the edges to keep the mold from breaking if I get a lay up bonded to the mold. We'll see how it goes. Wet out is the only thing I'm concerned with on the carbon.

I'll let this tack up for an hour more and start glassing. I've got piles of scrap cloth I'm using so I can get rid of it. I want to put about 20-25 oz of cloth on it but my scrap pile is huge so about 6 layers of that should do.