Piece of cake, not a bad idea turning old one electric 3000 or 3500 kvs is enough ?

Whoa! That's high! EDF stuff.

Check out the e-flite heli power 25 - might be overkill but it has a nice fan in it and is high KV - can't remember how much. Otherwise look into a 15-12 equivalent. About 2000 kV should do nicely, just look it up on the Electrifly Rimfire calculator website for example for the prop you want to spin.

David.

Really looking good there David, Excellent job. Where did you get the cradle.

YOU REALLY MADE ME LAUGH !!! IT WAS A JOKE DOX.
I KNOW IT'S TO MUCH.

NOT SURE BUT WILL THINK ABOUT IT !!

Gentlemen,

thanks for your great comments!

I'm feeling eager to start seeing some color on her! A little more work first though. My list of to do things still consists of two full bulleted pages!

Andy - the Northern Lights - well worth the trip, hope you get to it one day!

Paul, the cradle... I had the same reaction when I first saw it on another thread - "hey, where did you get that!?" I find it's actually a really nice cradle. Nothing fancy but it fits models of different sizes by flipping it - the cutouts are made for 10-20 size models on one side and 40-90 size on the other. Larger models won't cradle but you can easily rest a 25% model on it as it's quite wide and stable. It's made of interlocking foam rubber. Reasonably stiff in the required vertical direction, but still flexible in the other. It's sold by Airborne Models (the US distributor for The World Models):

http://www.airborne-models.com/html/...sp?AGroupID=15

It says its made out of plastic but it's not.

Rafa, failed to note your smiley at the end of your KV post... seriously though, electric models of this size are great. I typically wouldn't want to convert a classic model to electric - certainly wouldn't do it with a Deception - but I think the Tipo lends itself to this given its lines. To my mind, seeing a glow engine cylinder is more than acceptable on some models but seeing an electric motor is of no aesthetic value. In a small Tipo, the lines of the aircraft can be left intact without having to expose an unsightly electric motor. Also, the cost of a motor/esc/lipo combination is typically less, for models of this size, than the equivalent glow/fuel combination over the lifespan of the model. 'nough said though.

BTW, if you do think about it, and want to keep the cost down, Turnigy makes some inexpensive motors (and related chargers) which were recently upgraded in terms of quality. I haven't bought one yet but am thinking about it - an OS 1.6 glow equivalent!

David.

After a little further thought, although I had restored the fuse bottom lines after increasing the spinner diameter by 1/4", I was concerned that the top view might have lost its airfoil shape (assisting knife edge flight) due to the wider nose ring section. So I did a little math and felt better when I realized that my 18.5% increased fuselage width modification actually warrants a larger spinner to maintain the airfoil profile.

If the unmodified plans call for a 1-1/2" spinner and I widen the FW by 18.5%, then technically I should also be allowed to increase the spinner diameter by the same amount. Turns out 1-1/2" + 18.5% = 1.77" . Now I know why the 1-1/2" spinner just didn't feel right - not just on the G20 but also on the aircraft!

Nice little tidbit to report.

David.

DAVID I NOTICED THE PRICE FOR THOSE HONG KONG ENGINES / LIPOS / CHARGERS / ESC / PROPELLERS, ALL TOGHETER ARE LESS THAN 100 DLLS [X(] SHIPPING INCLUDED, NOW THAT IS GOOD AND BRINGS A BIG TO ME.

I FLEW THE TIPO TODAY WITH PIPE OOOOOH LORD IT WAS FAST, JUST BEAUTIFUL UNLIMITED VERTICALS, ALMOST OUT OF SIGHT DONT REGRET AT ALL THE CHANGES.

ALL THIS SAID, WHERE ARE THE PICS OF YOUR PLANE ? NOTHING TO SHOW US ?

P.D. I ' VE SEND THE PLANS TO YOU, YOU GET THEM ?

David,

There's no need to show an unsightly electric motor. My Gulfstream has the motor completely within the cowling, using an inrunner. My son's P-51 has an outrunner completely hidden within its nose.

I know where you're coming from - the motors they stick on the front of those foamies are almost as bad as the flat fuselage and wings. Personally, I think that getting rid of the cylinder head and cleaning up the cowling do wonders at improving the appearance.

Andy

Andy,

nice looking Gulfstream! Is this the one with retracts?

My comment about exposed motors was really in relation to the aircraft design. Like the GS, the Tiporare has a closed nose fuse which is opened to accommodate the engine. What I was highlighting is that for an electrified Tipo, this is unnecessary and the lines are left intact.

On a model such as the Deception, I don't think I'd care for the lines of a completely enclosed cowl - I like the fact that the engine is mounted vertically and further that ideally you'd use a RE engine with pipe running under the hood. Unfortunately, finding a RE engine these days in the .15-.21 displacement is rather tricky, not to mention the associated headers. Hence, a SE engine being used in this build. Further, I've decided to use a regular muffler instead of a TP in order to reduce weight and because, this model will hardly need it with a .23! (I may end up using the G20/15 if I find the 23 overkill.)

David.

Yea, not bad eh? So are you going for it?

Excellent news on your Picorare! But it takes 1000 words to describe a single picture - where's the real stuff!? You have to post some pics on your thread. Actually, we want video as well!

Many thanks for the plans, got them all. Been dissecting Escape vs XLT and wondering about the history and rationale for one to evolve into the other. Personally, I like the details of the Escape better than those of the XLT but it is a much smaller aircraft.

So you want a D10 progress update?

David.

Alright...

the glass work on the flying surfaces is done. I glassed in two layers starting with a 1" strip at the wing joint of 4 oz cloth followed by a layer of 3/4 cloth. On the wing top, the glass spans the width of the fuse including the wing fillets. This provides a nice wide swath of glass but keeps it concealed by the fuselage. On the bottom, the glass spans the width of the bellypan less 1/8" on each side to allow the bellypan walls to bond directly to balsa and keeps the joint gapless and smooth.

I find that using tape to delineate the desired glass width helps. Further, if the glass is cut at the edge of the tape and removed with the tape while the resin is still curing, the tape comes off much easier. I do it when the resin is a touch tacky and still elastic.

While glassing I also went ahead and sealed the wood of the retract wells with laminating epoxy thinned with alcohol. This will allow primer and paint to be sprayed directly.

The wing of course has been mounted via two dowels in the front extending into F2 and two screws in the rear passed through oak dowels inserted in the wing and drilled out to pass the 10-32 nylon bolts.

Aside from the bellypan, that pretty much completes the wing prep. Once the resin has cured overnight, I'll proceed with the wing fillets (here's where I have to make sure the wing is square wrt the fin) and then the bellypan. With that complete, I'll then move back to the empennage starting with the stab installation, fixed rudder portion (and torque rod!) and permanent installation of the fuse rear bottom (still free in order to install a couple of tail section inserts and secure the stab from the inside).

White waiting for the glass work to cure, I began planning the radio layout.

I've converged on using the following Hitec servos:
[ul][*] 4 x HS-65HB for control surfaces (ailerons, elevator and rudder)[*] 1 x HS-65MG for main retract gear[*] 1 x HS-55 for nose retract gear[*] 1 x HS-55 for throttle
[/ul]
I've also quite conclusively decided that all 4 fuse servos will be mounted in a quartet arrangement in the back of the fuse in order to offset the weight of the engine. At the moment I have a gut feeling that the model may be nose heavy with a conventional radio layout and so I decided against installing the nose gear servo in the retract bay.

I'll make 2 radio trays - one for the servo quartet and switch and the other for the receiver, battery and voltage regulator (VR). I decided to go with an 800 mAh 2s Lipo and VR as the combination weighs between 10 & 30 grams less than an equivalent 6s NiMH 2/3A pack. An added benefit is a more constant voltage fed to the radio gear.

The purpose of using radio trays is that it will allow me to dynamically relocate the gear in order to achieve balance. The servo tray itself will slide on rails and will be pushed back flush against F3 or moved forward as necessary. It will be anchored at the front end via two small hardwood blocks on each side of the fuse - one mounted to the tray and the other glued to the rails. Two screws will then hold the tray in place.

For the Rx and Battery the intention is to be able to float mount them with foam underneath since receivers of this size are difficult to wrap against vibration.

Just spacing things out at the moment. I made a paper cutout as a battery template. HS-65's will go in the back and HS-55 toward the front.

to be continued...

Hi David,

I understand better now on the motor thing.

Those photos are the original with fixed gear. For the retract one, I framed up the tail last week, and tonight I'm starting the wings. Got the LE form hot-wired, laminated the gear mounts, and just came in from ripping some 1/4 x 1/8 spars. Tonight I should have the wings framed. Laser cutting is SUCH a time saver! The LE wood won't be in until next week so I will probably start the fuse while I wait.

But this is YOUR thread, I don't want to hijack it.

I think your Deception deserves better servos than Hitecs. My GS has HS-55's throughout, and one of the first things we all noticed is how "mushy" the plane feels. This second one is getting JR's on the control surfaces. The retracts will be Spektrum DSP-75's.

Andy

Andy,

thanks for offering that suggestion. It's this kind of comment that makes one re-consider ones choices. In the absence of feedback, one simply goes ahead with what seems to make sense.

Having said that, I am considerably more impressed with Hitec HS-65's than the 55's and even the 81's and 82's. I have no experience with the 85's but they are considerably larger and heavier. I find the 65's to be light, fast and strong (30+ oz of torque) at 6V. I haven't seen in my non exhaustive research too many other servo's of this size and weight that deliver the same speed and torque as the 65's.

I've always been a fan of JR and it's what I use to fly but I don't know whether their offerings, at any price, are any better than the 65's - even in digital version. But... I'm certainly open to suggestions. Are you thinking digitals or JR sports (e.g. MN48's or similar)?

I've yet to buy servo's for the D10, the ones that I've been using for measure and in the shots are for a 1/2A electric scale project which is not far from completion. Actually, today I did order a single HS-65MG for the D10's main gear. A larger servo wouldn't work too well as built. I would have to rebuild the servo bay. In any case, those are retracts not control surfaces... those are the servos we really care about!

I look forward to your recommendations.

Thanks, David.

BTW,

while I had planned to make DBr arrow shaft pushrods for the tail controls, I just ordered a set of GP composite pushrods. I think these are a new product. At $4 they're hard to beat:

http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin...?&I=LXUF88&P=7

They look narrower and presumably lighter than the DBr units which are made of fiberglass and intended for 60 size models. We'll see how they turn out.

David.

On servos I'm not 100% decided. I think my wallet will have some say

I'm still looking around. The 285MG is fast but not much torque (17 in oz), while the MN48 is probably 'fast enough' and has lots of torque. The 285 should be OK because it's only driving a single aileron.

The servos are mounted on a plate, so changing them out isn't a big deal. I might even try making up plates for each type and then swapping at the field to see if there's much difference in feel.

I _know_ how the plane feels with 55's all around (and not easily swapped out on the prototype), and I'm trying to deal with it by changing linkages and expo. I have to believe I wouldn't feel as disappointed if I had GOOD servos to start with.

As for pushrods, Midwest has some CF tubing that I'm planning to use (# 5720). The prototype has .047 piano wire in DuBro antenna tubes for support.

Hmmm, thinking about it, I wonder if maybe that's part of the mushy feeling too...

Andy

Andy,

I'm sure the JR 285's are nice servo's but I suspect more in the range of the HS-55 class rather than the HS-65 class. The HS-55's are, as far as I'm concerned, 1/2A or foamie servos (25-30 oz max AUW aircraft) so I don't plan on using them on control surfaces. It seems like where things become interesting is with the JR Sport MC35's and the MN48's. The 48's are better suited to a 45-48" span models - they are largish. The 35's might be an interesting option. The specs off Horizon's site and those of the HS-65 for comparison are posted below in a JPG.

It appears that the Hitec's are the smallest, lightest and fastest. They compare favorably in price and torque with the MC35's. I think I'll stick with 65's for this size of aircraft and probably use 35's and 48's on 20 size models. BTW, the 65's come in a digital MG version too at about $45 [:-].

There are however, some very nice Hobbico (Tower) digitals for $30: the CS-110 (TS-110) and 115's. On paper, these appear to be very nice - similar in specs to the 48's but digital. For rudder one can use 115's for strength and on elevator and ailerons, 110's for speed. I actually plan to use these on two 20 size Tiporare builds when I'm done on the D10. I started a thread here:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8070218/tm.htm

On bench testing they appeared really fast and strong for their size.

The Midwest CF tubing looks good! It seems like there are other rod OD options too. I imagine the GP pushrods are similar although wider in diameter (0.3" - 7mm) and presumably thinner. I'll compare them to the Dave Brown shafts when I receive them.

Maybe swapping out your pushrods on the GS will help.

David.

Double post.

Yup, David, I'm hemming and hawing on the servo thing. The torque on the HS-55 and SJ 285 is the same but I have one of each and the JR holds position a LOT better than the Hitec when you try to turn it. That might be part of the difference. There's a lot more travel before the Hitec fights back, so the JR is definitely a tighter servo.

I figured out the pushrods aren't the problem. They are not flexing - they're mounted well at several points in the fuselage. Also, the ailerons are only 3" pushrods and they felt soft too. It's just something I have to figure out, but I think I might be on it with the sloppy hold on the Hitec. I have some MC35's on order now. You're right about MN48 being for bigger models, that's what I have in my Pulse 25.

By the time I'm done I'm going to end up with some extra servos. Have to build a couple foamies to get rid of them

Andy

No doubt JR servos are much better, Hitec 55's have the worst centering and speed I ' ve ever seen.

Even hextronic 900 have more torque and speed at 1/3 the price .

A quick update on fillet and glass work...

I've cut and installed the wing fillet plates and have made a first pass on the fillets. More work is still required in the rear part of the fillets. The foam canopy mold is also complete and the glass is curing overnight as I write this. I decided to make it in two layers with the first layer of 6 oz cloth and the second layer with 3/4 oz cloth to smooth things out and cover with a fine weave. Another evening of work on the canopy and it should be ready for installation when the time comes.

With these details done, I should be able to finally work on the tail section and install the stabilizer. Once that's done, I'll no longer need a flat top fuse and will be able to proceed to shape the fuse top to contour. Then, some final work in the cowl area and we should be pretty close to having a complete airframe!

David.

David,

Will you be making a permanent (female) mold of the canopy?

Mitch

Mmmm...

Mitch, that sounds like you might be thinking of building a D10!

Dunno. Maybe I should. At the moment, the canopy is glassed with one layer of 6 oz cloth. I suppose I could layer another atop and hollow it out.

The only issue is that I'm not sure how to make a canopy from that mold... wouldn't I need vacuum gear?

David.

Aside from some minor sanding, the fin with its dorsal is complete. The canopy is glassed and plenty strong so unless I proceed to make a mold from it, I'll just leave it as it is.
[ul][*] Canopy weight = 0.7 oz.[*] Fin/Rudder weight = 0.4 oz.
[/ul]
I still can't help myself from playing a little and taking assembled shots!

Now... onward with that empennage!

David.

David awsome work and AR to C , whats the scheme for this bird ?
Have you decided what engine your going to mount ?
Very chin... gon