dfturnock

Getting ready to do kits of the series of planes based on the Ace RCwings, such as the Mach None, The Eyelash( mini eyeball) , the Pacer, etc. Probably modify the small Tipo for the wing also.

Going to do a build thread on the Eyelash first, Ikeep forgetting to do build threads when I'm doing the test build of kits.. duh... Will probably build them all for the same set of wings. Will be just right for behind the shop.

I'm going to probably go with an OS.10 for them, since Iwant throttle control, and I'mnotan electric guy. Would like to do one fuse electric for comparison, so any comments on which economical motor , speed control, battery combo would be appreciated.

First attached pictureis of the kit ready to build.

Don @ Eureka Aircraft.com

dfturnock

Ihave drawn a skeleton plan in CAD, just enough to build over to get former placement right. Iwill upload it in the next couple of days.

Oh yeah, build article is here:

www.trentonrcflyers.com/pattern/articles/eyelash.pdf

Don

AndyKunz

Don,

I have been using the E-Flite Six Series motors in planes like this, including the Gulfstream design that was just published in the September Flying Models.

My preferred setup is EFLM2000 2000Kv inrunner, APC 6x4E prop (also 6x5.5E and 7x5E), EFLA1040 40A ESC, 3S 2500 25C or 30C Thunder Power pack.

If you want more speed, get the 60A ESC and EFLM2005 motor (2700Kv) but be careful for cell life.

Andy

dfturnock

Andy, that does seem a bit overkill... I'm looking to fly nice pretty patterns withit, not going for aspeed record. No offense to the BPAguys, but speed and pattern have never went together to me. Thrust beats speed any day. A SLOWslow roll is a beauty to behold.

Iwas looking for affordable propulsion to try, not something over 3x the expected cost of the kit. No offense, just not looking for overkill. Iwould guess that most guys are looking for the same thing. ~10-12 minute flights, a couple pattrens worth would be fine, with enough vertical to pull through the loops.

Thanks for the input. That's what I'm looking for..

Started buildingthe fuse, will put up pics later

Don

dfturnock

The fuse sitting in the fuse jig. Pretty funny fitting this in a fuse jig that holds 1/4 scale planes. But it deserves to be straight, too

One more plane that I forgot about is the Baby Banshee, designed by Jim Martin. I don't think it was ever relesaed anywhere, but Jim sent me a faded copy of theplans hedid of it, back whenhe found I bought the rights to the J&J stuff. Thanks, Jim

Don

dfturnock

More pictures...

Fuse at current build state, and with wing, stab, rudder, cockpit section taped in place.

Starting to look like an Eyeball...

Don

Free Bird

Very cool Don! A Baby Banshee! Sign me up for that one! Also, there was a 1/2A Miss Norway that used the Ace foam wing cores. I happen to have a kit. I also own the original mylar for the Eyelash that MAN used to print the plans from and I have a kit stashed away. It's nice to see some of these neat designs being brought back to life!

FB

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Don,

in the build of the little 10 sized Tipo (Picorare) I used an inexpensive (CD$43) outrunner from Dualsky. I propped it with an APC 8x6E which seems like it will do the model justice and pulls ~300W and about 35 oz of thrust (the model weighs 30 oz AUW). For an ESC I used a Castle 54 Amp ESC for about $40 but a cheaper one could have been used. 3s 2350 25C Lipo's were $18 if I remember correctly and I bought two of them. That makes for a ~$100 power setup including fuel which seems reasonable to me when compared to an OS 10 LA or, better yet, FSR.

Further details on the components used and how I installed things are in the build thread:

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8858351/tm.htm

Hope that helps, David.

proptop

My Feedback: (8)

Cool! I've been thinking about building something like a Mach None or Eyelash...glad you're gonna make kits

There was a kit of the Baby Banshee...I had one in the mid 70's...don't remember who made the kit though?

Hey...do you suppose you could also make a kit of the Upstart?

AndyKunz

Exactly why I recommended it. The throttle stick is not an on/off switch.

I flew the 6x4 setup with a 2250 3S pack. Had a lazy 12-minute flight, a few rolls and loops, and never went past 50% throttle except about 3 seconds at takeoff.

And still had almost half my battery to go when I landed.

Andy

dfturnock

The wing is sheeted and ready for wing tips and ailerons. the 1/32" sheeting only added about .4 oz to the wing, so went for the strength. Plus the much lighter modern radio gear will still bring the plane under the original weight...

Don

hrrcflyer

Hello Don,

I really like your fuse jig. Is it one of your own designs?

David

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

I have been wanting a kit of this size for a LONG time. I always wanted a Mach None, Pacer, Eyelash, etc when I was a kid and by the time I could afford one they were long out of production.

I am in for at least a couple of these planes, Don. Definitely a Tipo and probably an Eyelash and Mach None.

Are you going to make available the foam wings as well? I know the Ace foam wings are rare (and still heavy).

When will you get these on the website? hint, hint...

dfturnock

David,

Ifound fuse jig online a while back. Inever got around to puttingthe protective padding onthe clamps, but it does need it.

http://www.nwrcc.com/viewpage.php?page_id=20

I've used it on everything from a 1/3 scale cherokee fuse, to SPA pattern planes, and now a little Eyelash.

BTerry,

I already have the MachNone wing on the foam wing section of the site. Have had for quite a while. Sheeted wings from 1lb foam is probably the same weight as non-sheeted versions of the injection molded old Ace wings, plus nicer to cover, and a LOTstronger, although I will probably go 1/16" sheeting, very little more weight, and a lot nicer to work with. There is basically no room for sanding mistakes on 1/32" sheeting. Don't ask how I know

Will be putting them up in a bit. Got some other custom cutting to catch up on, then Ican do the pricing. Sneaking the build in while the router is busy cutting kits.

Don

dfturnock

Yeah, Ilearned about that throttle thing about 25 years ago, DUH...What a lame comment to make, IMHO.

I guess my point is for the same price, you could put David's setup in 2 planes. Much better use of resources, and get the expected performance. (unless you have unlimited resources, or employee discounts).

I also like David'sprop selection MUCHbetter for my flying style. Higher thrust, less speed, (the perfect combo) sincethe prop is much more critical (current draw) in electric thanwith IC engines.

One thing Idid notice already, the original Eyelash was made really narrow to help cut grag forthe .049 Cox. The production verson will be 1/4" wider at Firewall and in wing area.

Didn't we have this discussion on the Tipo scaling process, David? LOL

Don

MJD

My Feedback: (1)

I fly a Simple 400 with strengthened wing on a Series 6 2700kV, a Cam 5x5 prop, 3s 2100 Lipo. It is a rocket ship at full bore, but I can tame it back fairly well although there are limits to the versatility of that particular prop of course. I have yet to run a similar prop load but with lower pitch, but will do sometime soon. It glides quite well and I've managed to hold altitude now and again in strong lift. Really fun little aircraft. I can pull pylon turns and full speed high rate gyrations without fear with the wing stiffened up with CF caps and center glassing (light..).

MJD

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Don,

May I respectfully suggest that you go back to square one. What I mean is that the designs you mention, were done when light radios and batteries were not generally available. I saw SOME 1/2A designs call for the usual, 500mAh Ni-cad. Today, you can get 6 gram servos, 4 gram receivers and very small Nimh packs that are 1/4th the weight of Nicads.

Any plane with an ACE foam wing should not come in at over 20 ounces, in my opinion. No need. Weight is what creates the need for speed, just to keep the plane in the air. Add a heavy, OS .10 and it all just compounds.

Here, http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...94757217&hl=en you can see a Low Stik design that weighs just 16 ounces. This is exact scale to the original, no stretched wing etc. What if one took the original Eyeball plans, scaled them down, and used the ACE wing?

I realize that there's a real lack of good, 1/2A engines that throttle as well as the big pattern engines but it CAN be done. Someone just has to light a fire under CS's chair and get the ball rolling.

This http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHQhD...e=channel_page is what a CS AAN engine could do. At 19K on a 6 x 3 prop, 21 ounces of static thrust is developed. A 15 ounce airplane is amazing with 21 ounces pulling it. And when the time comes to slow her down, she WILL because of the low wing loading. Unfortunately, the day the video of the Low Stik was taken, it was very windy and I couldn't present any good, low speed aerobatics.

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Here's a better example of lower speed aerobatics, right on the deck. The engine is a dieselized Norvel .074 and the plane weighs just 20 ounces.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...nter+minisport

And this is the engine pulling it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af4dQNa60_w

At 11K with an 8 x 4, static is just a shade over 21 ounces.

dfturnock

Andy, I respectfully think your wrong on the re-design.  The planes in question were designed by some of the best flyers/designers the hobby has seen.  No reason at all to re-design.  If you read the eyelash (and migi-ball , /40 size Eyeball)articles, you would see the design progression that took place scaling down the Eyeball. All changes were done for flying reasons. It's called the evolution of a design. Wouldn't surprise me if there was an later .60 sized Eyeball with the Eyelash changes worked in! They were always looking for ways to make the planes fly even better.  If simply scaling the big brothers would have kept them happy, I'm sure they would have done it. I'm sure a lot of the old timers around here will back me up on that. The old designs are just THAT GOOD!

As already mentioned a few times before, (it's getting redundent) they will come in lighter than the originals with no problem, due to the lighter new radio gear.

The Norvel engines would be a good choice, (I was trying to remember the name) if you have them around. The throttle works well on them, I've flown a lot of others peoples planes with them for power.  If you got em, slap em on and go fly. That's the cool part of these 'old' designs.

I just weighed the eyelash, at present construction time, with all of the parts not on yet, engine, mount, prop, and spinner, and a couple servos, minus fuel tank, 2 more servos, and receiver.  So far it is at just over 12 oz...  Don't see a problem getting under 20 with the 'HEAVY' OS10.  Just got a big wood order in, so I will be too busy cutting kits and wings todo  anything else on it for a couple of days..  Stay tuned...

Oh yeah, if anybody has the old plans for the Baby Banshee, or an old kit, what is the span of the stab.  The very faded palns I got from Mr. Martin must have been kit plans, as the stab ends are cut off, and there is only a reduced size view of the entire stab. And a canopy I could get copied by Keith at Park Flyer Plastics would be very cool for any of the planes in queston.
 
Don

   

AndyW

My Feedback: (1)

Don,

If you're familiar with the Tsunami, pictured is one I did at exact scale down to 40 inches at 25 ounces. It was intended for the Norvel .06 but came in heavier than intended. With a just broken in Norvel .074 on 25% fuel, it will do (sloppy) knife edge loops. It flys exactly like the .40 size but looks faster due to its smaller size.

I didn't mean to disparage the original designers. It's just that I've seen too many 1/2A downsized versions of bigger aircraft that were that only in name and general look. I have found that ANY aircraft will fly about the same no matter what size even when scaled exactly the same. No need at all to re-design to make allowances for the smaller size. The key is to maintain a lower wing loading, the smaller you get.

There was only ONE, 1/2A engine that ran like the bigger ones. That was the VA .049 MK2 and the key was having a means to adjust the idle mixture. I was involved in getting the engine maker to offer a throttle with that feature. The CS engine in the video was a Brodak offering and didn't come with the adjustable airbleed. The engine would quickly load up at idle and sputter and often die when the throttle was advanced. The simple addition of an adjustable airbleed allowed all day idle at 5K with instant acceleration. Stuffing the running bits of an early, Norvel AAN engine took this one from 12K to 19K as shown.

The Norvel .06 suffered the same problems with idle and acceleration. Making the idle mixture adjustable allowed throttling performance exactly like any .40 or .60

But you are correct in offering designs for the OS .10. There's not much else out there and this is one engine that, despite having no means to adjust the mixture at idle, it throttles virtually perfectly.

Free Bird

Don,

You're in luck for the Eyelash canopy. I sent Keith a canopy several months ago to make a mold from. He should have what you need, just contact him. The MachNone used a block of balsa for the canopy, no plastic canopy for that one. Sorry but I can't help with the Baby Banshee, but given its simple stab shape, you should be able to draw it out. Does the Baby Banshee use the Ace wing cores? Also, are you interested in a 1/2A Miss Norway?

FB

dfturnock

FB,
On the Baby Banshee. the shape isn't the issue, it's the span. It is there in a reduced view, but not full size. If all else fails, I'll mach the Eyelash stab span, since the Banshee basically came from the Eyeball,(Kinda).I'll measure to see if the reduced view of the wing is at the same scale..Duh..

As far as the Mach None canopy, even though it is a carved block, people will want the clear, so I might have to carve one and send to him..

I'll PMya about the Miss Norway, and a few other things...

Don

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Don,

just as a follow up to my PM on the Pico's electric power setup, the finished airframe (a combination of Monokote, Ekonokote and Ultracote) came out at 14 oz if I remember correctly (I'd have to check the build thread). Unfinished it was 12 oz with fully sheeted foam core wings and stabs. I was optimistic for a 26 oz AUW model but it ended up weighing 30 oz with the somewhat heavier 3s 25C 2350 mah lipo. The battery alone is ~7 oz and I could use a 3 oz lighter one at 15C 2100 mah which would lower the model to 27 oz AUW. Of course that would be ideal but without the heavier battery the model is tail heavy which is largely attributed to the sheeted foam stab and built up airfoiled fin and rudder. If the design was modified to stick construction empennage then one could even use 1350 mah lipo's for a very light model but in their absence, the model ended up weighing twice as much as the finished airframe.

I still don't know how well she'll fly but as AndyW points out, it will be fast and will likely not slow down that much for landing. In any case, that's ok as the plane was a bit of a proof of concept as well as a bit of eye candy in my shop (to me) and inspiration. As a result of the build I can think of several things that would help to bring the model in at it's ideal 26 oz AUW while at the same time balancing correctly. I don't think that the 40" airframe could weigh much less than 12 oz and still look like a Tiporare as well as of course being true to the plans in concept.

In any case, inspired by AndyW's little Tsunami a few months ago, I expect to built one just about the same size (many of the parts are already cut) as his (a tad larger) with retracts and the same motor that's in the Pico. I expect the model to be even lighter than the Pico by design even though it's a tad larger. I imagine it will also have a ~30 oz AUW but will have lower wing loading since the wing area is a fair bit larger. It will also be able to land on wheels rather than belly land as the Pico will.

Keep up the good work and please do show us your finished kit prototype of the Eyelash. I think I'm developing quite a taste for these smaller classic birds.

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

FB,

I built a MN from the ACE kit a couple of decades ago. In fact it should still be somewhere at my dad's but it has gone through many moves. If I'm lucky I'll find it and rescue it. The kit did come with a full clear canopy both the rear portion which is built onto the fuse top and the front part which is attached to the removable hatch to access the tank (lipo?). The canopies sort of interlocked. I covered the whole lot in orange Ekonokote including the plastic rear portion of the canopy and the bare foam wings. I left the front portion of the canopy clear with a black interior if memory serves. It also had some simple white trim. A TD 049 was at front.

If I were to find it, I would probably check the covering and wing strength and rebuild the nose to put an electric into it. It never had landing gear and my recollection was that it was very light. Two of today's 9g servos would serve it well. It had no rudder but if converted to electric I'd consider putting it back.

David.

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Don,

what about adding a little Dirty Birdy to the fleet? A simple design that serves OS 10's or 300W motors well.

I guess DavidW is doing a slightly larger UFO.

David.