Greubin

Hi All -

Darkwombat - thanks for your PM's saved that info for future mods.

I've managed to make my heli unable to lift off after performing repairs. Here's what happened -
I flew a couple of successful and not so successful hovering and ff flights Friday after work. Got home and noticed that one landing gear strut was broke, further inspection revealed a bent main shaft and blades a bit dinged. That night I picked up carbon blades, and the aero upgrade kit. Today I replaced the main shaft, installed the new carbon sym. blades, 9t motor, and heatsinks. First test hover and the heli will barely lift off and wants to fly right. Reinspected installation of parts and tested flight controls, it was then that I noticed the right aileron servo kind of lagging - with the servo link disconnected and battery unplugged the servo is very difficult to move and sounds like rocks are being crushed. Ok - so bad servo, called all the local HS and unable to find an eflite servo replacement. I picked up a hitec HS-55 servo which plugs right into the 4-1. I thought that this would work fine, so I powered up the heli and it seems better but still won't lift off even at 80% throttle. Again, I disconect main / tail motors and ran thru the preflight check - seems like there's no blade pitch movement when throttle is moved up. Swash plate moves freely in all directions, so I suspect 2 or 3 probable causes -

1) The hitec servo is incompatible?

2) The 4-1 was damaged in last crash?

3) I screwed up something during install?

Here are the servo observations during control movement

Throttle up - left aileron servo moves down, right aileron servo moves up, elevator servo moves down

Left aileron input - both aileron servos move down, elevator servo moves up

Right aileron input - both aileron servos move up

Forward pitch input - elevator servo moves down, left aileron servo moves up, right aileron moves down

Back pitch input - opposite from above.

According to the manual - my controls are all messed up.

I'm at a loss right now, hopefully one of you can help....TIA

flaXen

Boy, we could all use help getting our BCP's off the ground hehe. My BCP lift issues are annoying me pretty badly. I found it had to do with my battery -- the low-voltage NiMH pack lets me use about 90% of the collective pitch inputs I issue (spooled-up compared to idle), but the high-voltage LiPo pack only allows me to use 10% of the collective pitch, and I can't get off the ground any more. I'm going to try the 8t motor, but I'm at a loss as to how to correct this problem.

Wombat! Nice word of advice there, and indeed, taking your eyes off the heli is asking for trouble. I encountered the nose-dive of doom (not from lack of observation tho -- it was lack of skill) and crashed in a similar way (my most recent crash). I too pitched up and cut throttle just as soon as I knew it was going down, and I suffered similar damage. My training gear may have helped slow my blades down (judging from what I saw on the blades and how the crash went), so no real blade damage, but I snapped a skid strut and the two rear skid mounts on the frame. I CA'ed the frame and replaced the skid and she's holding together just fine -- a new frame is in the mail.

Today was a good day for me too! I flew for the first time w/o using my training gear at all. LOVE IT! I think I'll never put 'em back on!

DarkWombat

Flaxen:

Congrats on taking off the training gear! It's weird without them for the first few flights, the heli looks so dinky! But you'll soon see that it's MUCH more responsive and (I think) easier to control at higher altitudes. It's bascially more nimble without those bulky training gear. Don't forget to check your CG though, it changes with or without training gear!

As far as the motor goes, give the 8T a try. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the 90% and 10% collective inputs.

Greubin:

You messed something up with your servo connections. I also noticed one of the servos feels tight when I try to move it when it's unplugged, but examining it when powered up and moving controls doesn't show any problems. I might switch to HS-55's though....

Anyways, here's what SHOULD be happening:

Throttle up: ALL servos move down, giving positive blade pitch.

Throttle down: all servos go up(in Idle up they'll go up even more)

Forward elevator: Front servo goes down, rear servos go up. Swash should tilt forward

Reverse elevator: opposite as forward

Right Aileron: Left rear servo goes up, right rear goes down, front servo moves a little, swash tilts right

Left Aileron: Left rear servo goes down, right rear goes up, front servo moves a little, swash tilts left.


What you're experiencing sounds like what I had when I first tried setting up my swashplate with my aftermarket radio...it worked right in a couple of directions but otherwise it was weird. One of the servos is probably in the wrong spot. The BCP manual lists which servo is named which channel (one is called aileron, one is called elevator, one is called pitch). These should go in the corresponding channels your radio uses for each servo, also check your servo reversing settings, they should reverse aileron and elevator and maybe rudder.

Greubin

Hi Dark -

I double checked all the connections - everything is connected per the Blade manual. I suspect the 4-1 is shot. Perhaps it's cause to upgrade to the Optic 6 ?

DarkWombat

Hehehehe......as cool as jumping to the Optic 6 will be.....

I wouldn't jump to conclusions though, but that IS weird. It seems like your servos still work though, so nothing wrong there. I don't want to think that the 4-in-1 is shot, because sit'd have to be pretty rare for it to suddenly get its CCPM mixing all screwy. Double-check your transmitter to see if the reversing is all set right. Then disconnect the servos from the swashplate and see individually how each one moves. All three servos should have their servo arms on the upper half of the case when they are mounted on the heli. Look back on how each servo should move, there's gotta be something wrong with the way they're plugged in now. I seriously doubt that the 4-in-1 is screwed up, because if it were you should be getting no response in one or more channels, not screwed up mixing.

funkypilot64

I was curious if anyone has had this problem? My 4 in 1 seems fine but I fried a motor about 2 weeks ago and since then have fried two more. Im using the stock 370/9T Not sure if it was just the motors or if my 4 in 1 could be frieing them. Just need some advice. Also I am looking to switch from the dual tail motor conversion to direct drive/brushed tail motor and I'm just not sure whats the best to go with? Thanx

flaXen

heh yessir, Wombat! It does look and feel different. I got the same impression -- looks dinky and weird w/o it, but MAN! she goes!

What I meant by 90%/10% was that when the head is held still, and I'm holding a paddle so the flybar is level, I can get my collective to do what I'd consider 100% of -10° to +10° blade pitch. When the stock NiMH pack is in and the head is spooled-up, I get about 90% of that range, and it's biased a bit towards + pitch a bit, but still works very well. When I put the 3S LiPo in, I only see about 10% of the same kind of range from - to +, and it's so shallow that I can't even get off the ground.

MarkInCanadaFromUK

Not good.....

My 4-1 Is dead, No crash, No drop, No reason.... It is just doing crazy when you plug power to it... Servos twitch all over the place and light is Red/Green Flashing and it is toast.... I have some great flights on Saturday, nice easy landing and Sunday morning It was was Very Sick...

I called Horizon Hobby, They confirmed my fear and Its on its way back to IL from Canada ($21 postage)... Now I'm going to have Wait and Wait.... Great product but temperamental..... I followed all the rules on heat sinks etc... how frustrating...

One of the guys in my club did a full 'seperates' conversion with brush-less motors (head and tail) and a micro receiver (berq 5) and separate Gyro. He claims it is slightly lighter than stock and by comparison in my hands I think he was right... I am getting the full run down of the pieces and co$t...ultimately may be the way to go If I keep burning tail motors and 4-1 units....But not cheap...


I was examining my BCP and noticed that one of the servos was very tight too when not live... any one else noticed the same? I got to wonder if a tight servo could somehow be causing extra draw and stain on the 4-1?... my 4-1 without the servo in still is going crazy and flashes quickly red/green.

MarkInCanadaFromUK

Follow on from my message above:

This is the setup for the 'brushless' separates version of the BladeCP. - It adds up to about another $300 CND...! (yep thats about 2.5 stock Blades!)- But less 'maintenance'?

HS50 servos
Futaba Gy240 gyro - lightened
Berg 5 receiver - case removed
Razor V2 Heli with 8t pinion for main motor Feigao ’’IPS’’ Brushless Motor 4100 direct drive with 4.5x3 GWS hyperdrive prop for tail rotor two Pheonix 10s for speed controls.

AUW is 285g, I believe with battery.

astroflyer2

That sounds rather strange. changing to a lipo can't make any difference in the servo throw. all you're doing is applying power to the electronics and the throw should be exactly them same...

anyway, when my son and I changed to lipos, we adjusted the blade pitch so that it was zero at low throttle (with the fly bar level)....this setting flew the heli ok, but we needed full throttle for lift off. we then adjusted blade pitch by one half turn at a time on the clevis until we could get into a hover at about 70-80 percent throttle. it took a total of 1 and 1/2 turns of positive pitch to do this.

So I suggest a simple increase in blade pitch...see what that does..

skywestseth

My Feedback: (6)

edited for stupidity...

Human_Enigma

huh?

flaXen

Increasing blade pitch has been the only way I've gotten my BCP off the ground. I fly it around as if it were a FP heli like that.

Today my bro came over and I compared my BCP to his on the bench. His works fine -- w/ the same exact setup, he gets full + and - pitch range in CP mode and his heli would fly like a banshee if he dared -- it produces strong +/- thrust unlike mine... Mine will do full range of collective pitch if the head isn't spooled up, but when it is -- nothing. The servos are trying to move the swash around, but it just doesn't move the collective very far..

oh man... I realllly want to do 3D

Human_Enigma

i would hunt for restriction flaxen.. if i had to guess..

Human_Enigma

i lube all my heli's, every flight with one drop of TRI-FLO oil. it usually spins out on the main blades.. but it adds to reliability.. and fluidity.. it sounds like your having some binding issues..

DarkWombat

Flaxen: I agree with Enigma. If you've got the time, take the rotor head off, disconnect the servos from the swash and check it out. Can it slide up and down the shaft OK? Maybe something got stuck there, and if that was the case then it would be able to tilt easily (little up and down movement) but pitch would be hampered (lots of up and down movement necessary there). Have you tried swapping to the stock battery right now to see if it works fine, and then when you go to the LiPo it's not working? If so, that'd be VERY strange and I'd contact Horizon.

Mark: About the brushless conversion: I don't see any way that that could weight LESS than the stock Blade CP with battery at 285 grams. My blade weighs in at just under 300 grams (10.5 ounces) with my 900mah LiPo, and I had to go DOWN to that battery pack because the 1320 was too heavy for efficient flight. I'm now using a JR 610 UL Ultralite FM Receiver (as of today!), a GWS PG-03 gyro, Eflite 2-in-1 unit for speed controls and the stock servos. Since he's using two Phoneix speed controls, that'd add a bit of weight, compared to the 2-in-1 unit which contains both speed controls. However, if it IS do-able, then that's something else I'll have to consider

He's using HS-50 servos, and not HS-55's? Actually now that I think of it, those servos are so light you could lose a few grams with them, but I think they might be a bit overworked in rigorous flight, they're not designed to take much stress. At the LEAST I'd use HS-55's. Also, how is his tail rotor system working? Does he have a tiny, ittty-bitty micro brushless motor driving the tail or what? And how does the tail motor ESC get its power if the battery plugs into the main motor ESC (I'd assume)? I think for the best efficiency you'd get a Phoenix 10 for the main motor but use a brushed micro speed control for the tail motor and leave that alone, makes the most sense to me and it's the cheaper way to go, less modifying involved because you're not getting a new gearbox housing or anything. This is something I'm going to have to do a little research on, hehehe.

flaXen

Wombat! I solved my problem! I also posted the solution [link=http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=410632]here[/link]. I'm assuming it's a "new" type of sticky collective problem... well, as far as I know anyway. The flybar was catching on my center hub (but only under tension as if the motor was running) which was locking the whole rotor head to the center hub and effectively muting collective inputs. Otherwise, the collective felt as smooth as butter when just testing it by hand on the bench.

I'm yet to fly on it (fixed at night), but I can tell just holding it in my hand and running the pitch range that she'll fly like a banshee now. I'm so happy! Can't wait to try my first 3D maneuvers! .. and go thru another self-taught crash-course in heli piloting

StephenT

PJS, Flaxen, Nate


Thanks again for all your help this weekend. The BCP flew great on Sunday morning. The safety pin worked. Our local flying friend Sergio helped get the BCP trimmed and it flew great. Nothing inverted though.

chef-x

My girlfriend bought me one of the helis today, Im new to helis'. But any way i managed to get it in the air before i was ready. it rolled of to the right and hit the lawn, and bent the spindle rod. But before that happend i was able to ge the tail rotor mix right. I had problems with the heli want to mover around alot usaly back and moving to the left and could quite get it under contol. and ideas? i wont be able to fly until friday now though

DarkWombat

Flaxen: Nice work! But yea, apparently the problem was already found. Good job finding it out yourself though

I tried doing rolls this morning after some more forward flight, pirouetting, and circular hovers with the nose pointed towards the center. So I got plenty of altitude and planned it out. I punched the forward collective and got the heli moving pretty well, then I eased back on the stick and then gave it full right aileron. The heli, as expected, started to roll. However, when it got upside down, the nose started to drop. I gave negative pitch, tried moving the stick around to get control (this was my first experience inverted, I had an idea of what to do but it took me too long to think). The heli pointed straight downwards and had a REALLY nasty dive. As a reflex action, I moved the throttle stick down, however I forgot to get out of Idle Up mode (D'OH!) and the heli slammed into Mother Earth. I broke a skid, the center paddle control frame, bent the flybar, bent my main shaft by about 30° (ouch!), tore up my canopy (that makes 3), my rotor blades got a little scarred around the blade grips (but they're still doing fine) and the rear canopy mounting bar came off. Remarkably, none of the electronics got loose, the swashplate was working fine as was the radio input. The LiPo was unharmed, which is very thankful.

But as for me, there's no way I'm going to try any stunts that involve being even momentarily inverted until I get a simulator. I'm not going to risk further damage, and unfortunately the only way I think you can learn how to fly inverted is by practice, practice, practice, and that means you will inherently crash a LOT. Crashing inverted is not nice. Crashing upright is a cakewalk by comparison. Crashing on a simulator is free.

Tower Hobbies has RealFlight G3 (apparently one of the best out there) for $200, and the software comes with a transmitter that plugs into your computer, as well as cables that allow you to use your own aftermarket transmitter if you wish (but you won't be able to use the Eflite one) or even have two people fly on the computer at the same time. They're offering it both paid out in full as well as a system that allows you to pay $66 a month over three months, which is probably what I will do.

So just a word of warning: as much as you think you're ready for trying some stunt that involves being inverted, I seriously beg you NOT to do it until you get practice in a simulator. FMS Simulator, although free, isn't very good for helis. You're going to have to spend good money on a good simulator if you want to get the most out of it.

Now that my Blade is giong to suffer some major downtime, I might as well try going back to the 9T motor. Since the gearing is higher, it will give more power and performance, but it will be less efficient so flight times will get shorter. Hopefully I won't have to change all my radio settings....

Wombat out.

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Hey guys, I jumped on the laser and made these tail fins, what do you think? I covered them in holographic vinyl which will look awesome out in the sun. I can do them in any color.

Tried to get a picture of them changing colors, but with the flash its near impossible

I also cut out the blade holders.

Human_Enigma

The flybar slit issue was adressed on horizens update website http://www.horizonhobby.com/Shop/ByC...rodID=EFLH1100

Human_Enigma

Very cool JohnVH, will the laser cut more than styrene? What about thin polycarbonate?

bevar

My Feedback: (27)

Can anyone recommend a good heading lock gyro to use? I'm dumping the stock setup so I can use my 10X.

Thanks,

B

JohnVH

My Feedback: (38)

Yeah, I cut depron, plywood, acrylic, plastic, no metal or carbon though