OK, new brushless on my Blade CP. No problem with the brushless....runs good.

Problem: Have a NON HEAD HOLDING gyro and a GWS speed contoller for tail motor. When I arm the tail motor ESC it wants to run FULL BLAST at mid stick and slow down as I move it right. It stops completely if I move beyond mid-point to the left.

FYI: I have a DX6

How do I make this thing work correctly?? I'm going NUTS ! !

Suunds like you need to reverse the rudder servo on your Controller. You are sending left and pushing the stick right.

??? That work for you ??

Dy

Already tried that.

Then its wide open from mid point and slows down toward the left. Dead from mid point to full right.

Any other suggestions??

Try the sub trim setting for the rudder.

Tried sub-trim with no real results. Tried it both sub + and sub -. Anybody have a duplicate setup who can offer some recommended settings?

I'm gonna ask the obvious, but did you try the speed controller without going through the gyro? Did it run normally, ie: 0% at one end and 100% at the other end of the stick? How about gain and proportional settings on the gyro? What spedd control exactly are you using?

Regards

Georges

Yes, speed control verified operational with the throttle channel. Just start up at low stick, move to high stick, back down and its ready.

It is a GWS 300 speed controller (8A or so). Stock tail motor. DX6 radio and AR6000 receiver.

OK, but did you try the speed control without the gyro in the rudder channel? You would then see if there's some weird programming in that channel. I have a 9C so I can't help you with your DX6, but the output of the rudder channel is pretty straight forward, normally?

Good luck
Georges

As I understand it, the rudder output is basically a pot with a "nuetral" dead stop. Go to right, get + output, go left, get - output. (of course this is reversable with programming).

It seems as though the ESC thinks this is a throttle input....i.e. from midpoint to far right is like a throttle lever. Anything to the left and the motor dies. This would be O.K. except for some odd reason it sees the mid-stick as "full throttle" and far right as "off". If I could just get that turned around I may have a chance at making this thing work !

AAARGGHH ! ! [:@][:@][:@]

Georges,

No, I did not try it without the gyro but I suspect it will be the same. Since it is non head holding it simply enhances or drops output based on rotational input. When the motor is running as I swing the copter right or left the motor speeds up and down so I know the gyro is working.

In any case, I'll just plug in without the gyro and give it a try....at least I can eliminate that variable.

I have a feeling this whole problem has to do with the ESC arming before the DX6 and the transmitter have "hooked up". If I could get the failsafes set where the ESC would initialize at the proper point I think I could lick this one. But....I'm not sure what the proper failsafe would be to bind this rascal at in order to try it ! ! []

Yeah I see what you mean, I only meant that there could be some mixing of function on the rudder channel and you could see if the ESC operates in a linear or predictable fashion on the rudder channel, without the gyro. Once you eliminate that unwanted mixing, or function or feature or whatever, you could then hook the gyro back on.

Maybe you could ask in the JR and Spectrum radios forum?

Good luck with your problem, I know it can get pretty frustrating with all the functions that are available in computer radios these days.
George

sounds like your esc is calibrating midstick as 100% input, so the esc is "failsafing" beyond its percieved 100% limit as you move the stick right past midpoint. ideally the rx/tx should be bound before the gyro enters it's calibration routine, and the gyro should be ready before the tail esc starts it's calibration routine. the reason for this is if either the gyro or the dx6 "blip" when the esc is calibrating, the esc may read something other than the gyro's max/min output as it's end points.

the esc needs to see the true max & min of the gyro during it's startup routine (using full left/full right/full left inputs). you could try installing a power switch (or a plug) to the tail esc. it would allow you to power on & initialize the tail esc after the gyro is ready to go.

btw, i'm sure you already knew this, but you're tail will likely spin even with the main motor off once you get it setup correctly. this can make unplugging the battery unsafe, but you can use a throttle kill switch programmed to give full left rudder while you unplug. just make sure it's not active when you startup the heli.

-kev

Truglodite/Georges,

Thanks for your inputs ! ! !

Yes, I believe the ESC is setting its initial point before the TX/RX/Gyro is ready and stable. This is causing me all kinds of problems in trying to get set up. I did get the ESC to arm where it was stopped at full left and wide open at full right. At the mid-point, (neutral), it was, well, half speed. (With trying so much I can't even remember how I did it.....but..) That was great but at mid stick it would have spun in circles on the floor if I went to set it down ! So, I then went in and adjusted sub-trim until the prop was barely spinning at mid stick. This seemed close, but because subtrim was adjusted so far to get it stopped at mid-stick it seemed the RVU (throttle to rudder mixing), had to be adusted to the max in order to even be close.

So, closer but still not there yet. The power switch to the ESC may be the ticket here.

Keep the suggestions coming. I can't be the only one who has made this change !

I am interested in this too, because I ordered a GWS 5A ESC. It should be in my mailbox today. Although my radio is the 9C, I guess we will be in the same boat if arming the ESC is the problem. What if you held full left rudder for the whole startup, and then arm the GWS ESC by going full right and full left again?

Georges,

With my DX6, until the RX/TX establishes communications, (which takes approx 2 seconds), it doesn't matter what stick input I give it. For the first two seconds, the ESC is going to see whatever the "pre established" position in the receiver is prior to making the link. On top of that I have a gyro thats trying to power up as well.

I'm beginning to think I want to try the switch fix. That way I can power up the TX/RX and let it get "linked", let the gyro get stable, and then put power to the ESC with Full left rudder.....therefore setting the low point properly.

Wow....I had never imagined this would be so darn difficult ! I work in Mexico so I'm at work today.....but I'll be doing more investigation tonight. Time to go to the lab and see if the Tech's have a toggle switch !

since you're using a rate gyro you will in fact have to use revo mixing (throttle to rudder) to keep the tail straight; no way around that.

it's also possible the switch won't be necessary. however since you're unsure how you got it to work, it may be hard to repeat. a switch would guarantee good repeatable initializations. make sure to ask the techs for a lightweight switch. you don't need a high current switch, because the switch can be installed on the positive (red) servo wire of the esc (low current, as opposed to the esc battery wires).

btw, sorry you have to work today. they should give you holiday pay for being american.?[&o]

cheers
-kev

Kev,

The switch can go on the red servo wire? I didn't know that ! I assumed I had to cut the "main" power to the ESC in order to keep it disabled until I was ready. As it turns out, the techs only had "heavy" switches anyway. Guess I'll have to make a trip to Radio Rat for a micro toggle switch. I hate going to Radio Rat ! Why do they even bother asking if they can help when you go in? When it comes to anything but cell phones or batteries, (and batteries is pushing it), they are clueless ! O.K. ..... enough complaining !

Yeah, I hate working when the rest of the U.S. is enjoying a BBQ ! BUT, there are LOTS of Mexican holidays I don't have to work !

Thanks for the tip !

Scott

actually i'm sorry to inform you i was blowing smoke. the gws esc won't power off by opening the red servo wire. i was thinking about a setup i had on some of my other projects, where bec power to the rx was disabled using the red esc servo wire. you will in fact need a high current switch to turn off from the battery wires. again, sorry for the misinformation.[]

if you can't find a light enough switch at ratshack, i'd just go with a jst or micro deans plug.

-kev

You're right, but it doesn't have to be that big of a switch because the tail motor draws less than 2 amps, even though the ESC can handle more than that. Many mini switches can do 2 amps.

Also, didn't I read somewhere that the red servo wire need to be disconnected if the tail ESC has BEC?

yeah, you're only going to want to have one BEC hooked up. Also if you've got a fuse on the tail motor, make sure to put a switch that can handle more than the fuse. Those tail motors can draw up to about 7 amps on the stock battery in a stalled condition. But you're right, probably only about 2 amps max in normal, or even 3d flight.

As a side note you may also want to get a switch that fails in the closed position, although that may not be that big of a deal for you.

I'm using the BEC from my brushless main motor ESC to power the receiver. I just pushed the red pin out of the connector of the tail motor ESC and put a little heat-shrink over it. I had read somewhere its not advisable to have two BEC's running....and that's understandable !

O.K. ...... Still no real luck here with my difficulties. I did not make it to the Radio Rat yesterday as my night quickly became the property of others and the RS closed. I did however get a chance to try some other things and here is what I discovered.

Per Georges suggestion yesterday: I went in and checked for any mixing or offsets in the radio on channel 4. Its all clean...no problem. I then took the GYRO out of the system and guess what? ! The ESC armed so that the motor is dead full left and W.O.T. at full right ! ! So, it seems as though the GYRO is keeping me from fully arming the range of travel on the rudder stick. Its good to know the ESC can arm properly but then again why is the GYRO not allowing it to arm the full range??

I'm on week two of no air time at all. I'm gonna have to put my "ping-pong" balls back on when I get going again !

Any more suggestions at this point?

lol, back to the balls & sticks again eh?

the gyro will get in the way of the esc arming, because it too can let out erroneous rudder movements while it is initializing. the esc will read the gyro's random output as its end points. the switch will be the cure to your problems bro. after the gyro is armed & ready, turn the switch on and the esc is now ready to listen to the real endpoints cf the gyro.

Georges, is that 2A figure for the stock tail? if so, it might be a good idea to install a larger switch in case you ever go to DD.

-kev

sdmahr,

I found this post at HeliFreak.com


Truglodite,

I found the 2 amp figure over at RCGroups in a PDF made by a guy named Scott Helmann, where they use a 2 amp fuse to protect the 4 in 1 of the CP with the stock tail.

Georges,

Thanks for the info ! (Always nice to have more options to try ! !) I don't mind the blade spinning at power off.....as long as I'm not doing ground piro's ! !

I have two ESC's in my inventory. Both of them have different start-up procedures. The GWS requires the input to be "off the stop" at system power up and then you move the stick to "stop" to arm it. This keeps it from running should your stick be off the stopped position when you power up. (kind of stange as it actually has you power up off of stop, but whatever)

The other is a Great Planes product which requires the operator to power up the system, go full throttle, then back to stop. It offers a series of "beeps" that indicate throughout the initialization if it is successful. Thats nice....at least it is providing some feedback !

I'm going to install the switch and try both of them with different start-up scenario's and see which one will arm and operate properly. If this doesn't get it, I'll start playing with the throttle hold arming experiments.

What a crazy situation ! [][&o]

I installed the switch to power the ESC on and off. My hope was to power everything up, then power up the ESC separately to eliminate fail-safe position issues, etc. With both ESC's I cannot get them to initialize properly. Both of them, no matter what will only initialize with full power at mid-stick and off full left. It is "dead" from mid-stick to full-right.

What I have discovered is that WITHOUT the gyro in the system, both ESC's initialize with the FULL RANGE of the rudder stick. In other words full right stick is full tail motor power, mid-stick is half tail motor power, and full left stick is off....a nice linear run from end to end of the stick travel.

I'm not crazy enough to try and fly this thing without a gyro to assist. (its bad enough WITH one !). I guess the gyro is the culprit in this whole deal....unless somebody out there has any ideas from this point ! ! I'll be ordering a Head Holding Gyro and give that a whirl.

DOG GONE THIS HOBBY ! ! !