Substitute for Ether
#401
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From: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Maybe you got a bit of flying and running in making the best of the weather, I am imagine days like this will be few and far between and then the ground will be covered with that fluffy white stuff.
Can't wait to hear of your results with your home brew biodiesel.
Your comments on the Canadian Tire Cetane boost working as well as the AMSOIL Cetane Boost got me thinking again.
I did some poking around to find the auto ignition or self ignition temperatur of the various ignition improvers we have been using.
methyl ethyl ketone peroxide aka 2-butanone peroxide, MEKP - 109 deg C chemical formula C4H16O4
Octyl Nitrate aka 2-ethylhexyl nitrate - 130 deg C chemical formula C8H17NO3
amyl nitrate aka 1Pentyl nitrate - 208 deg C chemical formula C5H11ONO2
iso-propyl nitrate aka 2-propyl nitrate, IPN - could not find one C3H7NO3
1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene - 210 to 240 deg c C9H12
Quite a range from around 100 deg C upwards to near the same auto ignition temperature of kerosene itself. So it makes sense that the addition of a compound with a lower autoignition temperature would mean you require lower compression but there must be something else going if Andy's observation of the trimethylbenzene mix and that with octyl nitrate seemed to work the same.
From here http://www3.telus.net/dieselcombat/diesel_fuel.htm this snippet regarding ignition improvers
quote
" has the effect of further lowering the self-ignition temperature of the fuel but more importantly reducing the lag time for ignition to commence once this temperature is reached."
some previous references I have noted mention the addition of tetra ethyl lead or ferrocene to the diesel fuel that the FAI team racers use, allows a higher compression setting by controlling "knock" (detonation ??). In other words modifying the way the fuel burns. These addititives are also used with gasoline as anti knock additives and so is trimethylbenzene.
I am not in a position to test as my test engine is down for a rebore, but in light of Andy's comments concerning the trimethylbenzene and the octyl nitrate seeming to work much the same, what effect would we get it we used a mix of both of these cetane boosters. Say 1% of each or 2% octyl nitrate 1% of the other. Would this let us run a slightly higher compression and have a positive impact on throttle ability?
And another thought, fuel formulas we see usually have around 2.5 to 3 % amyl nitrate. This has a fairly high auto ignition temperature. Perhaps when we substitute octyl nitrate we should be using less say 1.5 to 2% as it has a much lower auto ignition temperature. I have been using around 2.5% just because it seemed right but now I am wondering if this was too much.
I think the comment made early that kerosene is still king is a pretty good observation. It is relatively inexpensive, easily obtainable, and clean right out of the bottle - no fuss no muss. I ran my old PAW 2.49 on B85 biodiesel with no added lubrication for a total of around 1 hour running time. The wrist pin is wore out as is the connecting rod big end, compression is down but it was to start with. I don't think the B85 as is has the proper lubrication properties even though it feels oily and a there was a lot of oil coming out of the engines exhaust.
I wish I had more knowledge of organic chemistry, it might help more sense of some of this.
More testing to do. I have a PAW 1.49 that I think I might get out try some other mixes with before the cold cold weather sets in.
cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada.
Can't wait to hear of your results with your home brew biodiesel.
Your comments on the Canadian Tire Cetane boost working as well as the AMSOIL Cetane Boost got me thinking again.
I did some poking around to find the auto ignition or self ignition temperatur of the various ignition improvers we have been using.
methyl ethyl ketone peroxide aka 2-butanone peroxide, MEKP - 109 deg C chemical formula C4H16O4
Octyl Nitrate aka 2-ethylhexyl nitrate - 130 deg C chemical formula C8H17NO3
amyl nitrate aka 1Pentyl nitrate - 208 deg C chemical formula C5H11ONO2
iso-propyl nitrate aka 2-propyl nitrate, IPN - could not find one C3H7NO3
1,2,4-Trimethylbenzene - 210 to 240 deg c C9H12
Quite a range from around 100 deg C upwards to near the same auto ignition temperature of kerosene itself. So it makes sense that the addition of a compound with a lower autoignition temperature would mean you require lower compression but there must be something else going if Andy's observation of the trimethylbenzene mix and that with octyl nitrate seemed to work the same.
From here http://www3.telus.net/dieselcombat/diesel_fuel.htm this snippet regarding ignition improvers
quote
" has the effect of further lowering the self-ignition temperature of the fuel but more importantly reducing the lag time for ignition to commence once this temperature is reached."
some previous references I have noted mention the addition of tetra ethyl lead or ferrocene to the diesel fuel that the FAI team racers use, allows a higher compression setting by controlling "knock" (detonation ??). In other words modifying the way the fuel burns. These addititives are also used with gasoline as anti knock additives and so is trimethylbenzene.
I am not in a position to test as my test engine is down for a rebore, but in light of Andy's comments concerning the trimethylbenzene and the octyl nitrate seeming to work much the same, what effect would we get it we used a mix of both of these cetane boosters. Say 1% of each or 2% octyl nitrate 1% of the other. Would this let us run a slightly higher compression and have a positive impact on throttle ability?
And another thought, fuel formulas we see usually have around 2.5 to 3 % amyl nitrate. This has a fairly high auto ignition temperature. Perhaps when we substitute octyl nitrate we should be using less say 1.5 to 2% as it has a much lower auto ignition temperature. I have been using around 2.5% just because it seemed right but now I am wondering if this was too much.
I think the comment made early that kerosene is still king is a pretty good observation. It is relatively inexpensive, easily obtainable, and clean right out of the bottle - no fuss no muss. I ran my old PAW 2.49 on B85 biodiesel with no added lubrication for a total of around 1 hour running time. The wrist pin is wore out as is the connecting rod big end, compression is down but it was to start with. I don't think the B85 as is has the proper lubrication properties even though it feels oily and a there was a lot of oil coming out of the engines exhaust.
I wish I had more knowledge of organic chemistry, it might help more sense of some of this.
More testing to do. I have a PAW 1.49 that I think I might get out try some other mixes with before the cold cold weather sets in.
cheers, Graham in Embrun near Ottawa Canada.
#402
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Graham,
After the test runs on the Amsoil and Motomaster CBs, I did the same for MEKP the next day. Strangely, the results were not as good despite the MEKP seeming superior according to your information.
After that I went and phoned Shrader who make the Canadian Tire product and their tech guy Phil, explained that the only reason that the trymethyl stuff is listed is because of its nastiness, mandated by law if it's in anything above a certain percentage. It's a common chemical found in crude oil and goes along for the ride in many products unintentionally. That's why it's found in Mineral Spirits and also in Octane boosters. It's in those products not on purpose, just that it does no harm and would be just another expense to take it out.
So it's NOT the trimethyl that's doing the cetane boosting. Having said all of that, Phil couldn't offhand tell me just exactly what WAS in their cetane booster. With my email address in hand, he has promised us with an answer. When I suggested octyl-nitrate he agreed that it might be the ingredient at work but he wanted to make sure. Interestingly, when I told him about amyl-nitrate he said that it was NOT a good cetane booster. He was puzzled when I told him that AN was the traditional ingredient, used for over 60 years. It just might be the high AI temp of AN compared to ON that threw him off.
Another monkey wrench in the works is that forever we're told that adding more than 2 to 3% of AN was bad, made things worse, not better. Yes, that DOES happen with a standard kero/ether mix. But I've added up to 10% of Octyl Nitrate to an all kero fuel and the result was a much smoother run, with a much lower compression setting. This is a very good thing for full bore but again it takes the CR far too low for good idle.
Has anyone ventured to try 10% AN in an all kero fuel?? I would sure love to get ahold of some amyl-nitrate to test side by side with the others.
About mixing the Amsoil and the CT products, I did that with no difference noted from either ingredient alone. They seemed to operate as if they were the same thing.
About detonation and knock. As I understand it, we want our fuel to burn within a predictable time frame. Knock, or detonation is not a burn as in fire but an explosion as in an extremely rapid, virtually instant burn, so rapid that the piston doesn't have time to "go over the top" and thus we have great stress on the parts. So an anti-knock additive along with an ignition improver is what we want. We want easy ignition at a lower pressure/temperature but we don't want the burn to happen too fast.
The biodiesel fuel needed more time for all the soap to come out. Tonite I filtered the mix through several paint filters and now have a nice, clear solution, ready to try if the weather holds out. All I need is above freezing and I can still run engines.
I agree about kerosene. Cheap and available everywhere. It's the dang ether. And so we search.
After the test runs on the Amsoil and Motomaster CBs, I did the same for MEKP the next day. Strangely, the results were not as good despite the MEKP seeming superior according to your information.
After that I went and phoned Shrader who make the Canadian Tire product and their tech guy Phil, explained that the only reason that the trymethyl stuff is listed is because of its nastiness, mandated by law if it's in anything above a certain percentage. It's a common chemical found in crude oil and goes along for the ride in many products unintentionally. That's why it's found in Mineral Spirits and also in Octane boosters. It's in those products not on purpose, just that it does no harm and would be just another expense to take it out.
So it's NOT the trimethyl that's doing the cetane boosting. Having said all of that, Phil couldn't offhand tell me just exactly what WAS in their cetane booster. With my email address in hand, he has promised us with an answer. When I suggested octyl-nitrate he agreed that it might be the ingredient at work but he wanted to make sure. Interestingly, when I told him about amyl-nitrate he said that it was NOT a good cetane booster. He was puzzled when I told him that AN was the traditional ingredient, used for over 60 years. It just might be the high AI temp of AN compared to ON that threw him off.
Another monkey wrench in the works is that forever we're told that adding more than 2 to 3% of AN was bad, made things worse, not better. Yes, that DOES happen with a standard kero/ether mix. But I've added up to 10% of Octyl Nitrate to an all kero fuel and the result was a much smoother run, with a much lower compression setting. This is a very good thing for full bore but again it takes the CR far too low for good idle.
Has anyone ventured to try 10% AN in an all kero fuel?? I would sure love to get ahold of some amyl-nitrate to test side by side with the others.
About mixing the Amsoil and the CT products, I did that with no difference noted from either ingredient alone. They seemed to operate as if they were the same thing.
About detonation and knock. As I understand it, we want our fuel to burn within a predictable time frame. Knock, or detonation is not a burn as in fire but an explosion as in an extremely rapid, virtually instant burn, so rapid that the piston doesn't have time to "go over the top" and thus we have great stress on the parts. So an anti-knock additive along with an ignition improver is what we want. We want easy ignition at a lower pressure/temperature but we don't want the burn to happen too fast.
The biodiesel fuel needed more time for all the soap to come out. Tonite I filtered the mix through several paint filters and now have a nice, clear solution, ready to try if the weather holds out. All I need is above freezing and I can still run engines.
I agree about kerosene. Cheap and available everywhere. It's the dang ether. And so we search.
#403
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Here's the MSDS for Trimethylbenzene. Not much to go on.
Appearance: colourless liquid
Melting point: -43.8 C
Boiling point: 169 C
Vapour density:
Vapour pressure:
Density (g cm-3): 0.876
Flash point: 48 C
Explosion limits:
Autoignition temperature:
Water solubility: slightly soluble
Doesn't seem TOO nasty,
R36 Irritating to eyes.
R37 Irritating to respiratory system.
R38 Irritating to skin.
More,
Stability
Stable. Incompatible with strong oxidizing agents. Flammable. May form explosive mixtures with air.
Toxicology
Typical STEL 35 ppm. Typical TWA 25 ppm. May be harmful by ingestion, inhalation or through skin contact. Skin, eye and respiratory irritant.
Toxicity data
(The meaning of any toxicological abbreviations which appear in this section is given here.)
ORL-RAT LD50 5000 mg kg-1
IPN-RAT LDLO 2000 mg kg-1
IHL-MUS 8147 ppm acute
IPN-GPG LDLO 1566 mg kg-1
Risk phrases
(The meaning of any risk phrases which appear in this section is given here.)
R36 R37 R38.
Transport information
Personal protection
Safety glasses, adequate ventilation.
Appearance: colourless liquid
Melting point: -43.8 C
Boiling point: 169 C
Vapour density:
Vapour pressure:
Density (g cm-3): 0.876
Flash point: 48 C
Explosion limits:
Autoignition temperature:
Water solubility: slightly soluble
Doesn't seem TOO nasty,
R36 Irritating to eyes.
R37 Irritating to respiratory system.
R38 Irritating to skin.
More,
Stability
Stable. Incompatible with strong oxidizing agents. Flammable. May form explosive mixtures with air.
Toxicology
Typical STEL 35 ppm. Typical TWA 25 ppm. May be harmful by ingestion, inhalation or through skin contact. Skin, eye and respiratory irritant.
Toxicity data
(The meaning of any toxicological abbreviations which appear in this section is given here.)
ORL-RAT LD50 5000 mg kg-1
IPN-RAT LDLO 2000 mg kg-1
IHL-MUS 8147 ppm acute
IPN-GPG LDLO 1566 mg kg-1
Risk phrases
(The meaning of any risk phrases which appear in this section is given here.)
R36 R37 R38.
Transport information
Personal protection
Safety glasses, adequate ventilation.
#404
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From: Barrow in Furness, UNITED KINGDOM
Been busy lately so testing went down the chute.
I had made up a litre of modified olive oil but used 15cc of glycerine instead of 5cc. This followed Stewarts idea of using the olive oil and also using 20cc of glycerine... courage failed me so I went 5cc less than Stewart !
Today I got chance to test the modified olive oil.... it was a great success ! Mechanical noise from the engine is just the same as when running conventional 30% ether mix with 24% castor. It was quieter in this respect than the ordinary modified veggie oil made from cheap cooking oil.
Engine used for testing PAW 2.49, non-RC carb and open exhaust ports.
Fuel mixes used today...
Olive oil, kerosene, ignition improver and 10% commercial ether mix (which gave a castor content of 8% )
The mix was made up by adding 2 measures of kerosene to 1 measure of modified olive oil. This mix was then used to dilute some 30% ether comercial mix down to 10% ether content.
The olive oil/kerosene mix was about 1 litre in quantity and I added 2.5 % of ignition improver (see below) to it before using this combined mix to dilute the commercial mix. So the mix was roughly..
30% oil (olive and a small amount of castor) 60 % kerosene and 10% ether plus a bit of ignition improver.
This mix would start just by priming with a finger over the carb and then a quick spin of the electric starter..... starting was easy. The mixture ran well and the engine sounded powerful and comfortable.... no mechanical noise at all.
The next mix used was just modified olive oil, kerosene and ignition improver.
Olive oil one measure to two measures of kerosene and 2.5% ignition improver.... no ether or castor content.
This second mix was put in the tank and the engine started easily with the starter motor while still hot from the previous run. If the engine had cooled down then a high percentage ether prime would have been needed to get it started.
This mix ran well with no mechanical noise and just required a 1/8 turn increase in compression and a slight fiddle with the needle. The engine sounded powerful and comfortable .
The engine was given around 8 runs of several minutes at a time with a couple in the middle of the sequence being totally non-ether and no castor.
Modified olive oil looks to be a better bet for lubrication than the modified cheap cooking oil, I was quite impressed with it.
I have some castor on order, should come in a day or two, and I want to compare a 10% ether mix made with olive oil at 25 - 30% against one made with castor.
Regarding ignition improvers... some are calling them cetane boosters. I reckon the way to regard them is not as a cetane booster but an ignition improver which acts by lowering the auto-ignition temperature of the fuel, thus the WHOLE of the fuel content ether/kerosene, etc will ignite with lower compression and temperature.
In the UK the commercial diesel fuels use isopropyl nitrate. The PAW website states that this is a MUST for diesel fuels but can be substituted with 2-ethylexhyl nitrate.
The ignition improver I am using is based on 2-ethylexhyl nitrate and is sold as a fuel additive for diesel cars.
Andy.... I would be very wary of relying on the bio-diesel for lubrication. You mentioned it was thinner than the cooking oil you started with. I think the viscosity will be too low for the purpose.
Normal modified cooking oil doesn't become any thinner and yet the mechanical noise from the engine is more pronounced. Having tried the modified olive oil, which is slightly more viscous, I wouldn't be tempted by the cheap cooking oil anymore.
Why make the bio-diesel anyway, apart from as an interesting exercise ? Kerosene is the base ingredient of commercial diesel mixes and is readily available, ordinary diesel fuel will also work as proved by chevy. I can't see an oil which has been modified to produce a fuel being any good as a lubricant.... too thin. The oils used in model engines and 2 stroke engines in motorcycles pass through the engine without being burnt off, thus they lubricate from start to finish of the cycle and also carry away with them heat.... the carrying away of heat when the oil is expelled is an important factor. The modified veggie oils pass through the engine without burning off.
Reg
I had made up a litre of modified olive oil but used 15cc of glycerine instead of 5cc. This followed Stewarts idea of using the olive oil and also using 20cc of glycerine... courage failed me so I went 5cc less than Stewart !
Today I got chance to test the modified olive oil.... it was a great success ! Mechanical noise from the engine is just the same as when running conventional 30% ether mix with 24% castor. It was quieter in this respect than the ordinary modified veggie oil made from cheap cooking oil.
Engine used for testing PAW 2.49, non-RC carb and open exhaust ports.
Fuel mixes used today...
Olive oil, kerosene, ignition improver and 10% commercial ether mix (which gave a castor content of 8% )
The mix was made up by adding 2 measures of kerosene to 1 measure of modified olive oil. This mix was then used to dilute some 30% ether comercial mix down to 10% ether content.
The olive oil/kerosene mix was about 1 litre in quantity and I added 2.5 % of ignition improver (see below) to it before using this combined mix to dilute the commercial mix. So the mix was roughly..
30% oil (olive and a small amount of castor) 60 % kerosene and 10% ether plus a bit of ignition improver.
This mix would start just by priming with a finger over the carb and then a quick spin of the electric starter..... starting was easy. The mixture ran well and the engine sounded powerful and comfortable.... no mechanical noise at all.
The next mix used was just modified olive oil, kerosene and ignition improver.
Olive oil one measure to two measures of kerosene and 2.5% ignition improver.... no ether or castor content.
This second mix was put in the tank and the engine started easily with the starter motor while still hot from the previous run. If the engine had cooled down then a high percentage ether prime would have been needed to get it started.
This mix ran well with no mechanical noise and just required a 1/8 turn increase in compression and a slight fiddle with the needle. The engine sounded powerful and comfortable .
The engine was given around 8 runs of several minutes at a time with a couple in the middle of the sequence being totally non-ether and no castor.
Modified olive oil looks to be a better bet for lubrication than the modified cheap cooking oil, I was quite impressed with it.
I have some castor on order, should come in a day or two, and I want to compare a 10% ether mix made with olive oil at 25 - 30% against one made with castor.
Regarding ignition improvers... some are calling them cetane boosters. I reckon the way to regard them is not as a cetane booster but an ignition improver which acts by lowering the auto-ignition temperature of the fuel, thus the WHOLE of the fuel content ether/kerosene, etc will ignite with lower compression and temperature.
In the UK the commercial diesel fuels use isopropyl nitrate. The PAW website states that this is a MUST for diesel fuels but can be substituted with 2-ethylexhyl nitrate.
The ignition improver I am using is based on 2-ethylexhyl nitrate and is sold as a fuel additive for diesel cars.
Andy.... I would be very wary of relying on the bio-diesel for lubrication. You mentioned it was thinner than the cooking oil you started with. I think the viscosity will be too low for the purpose.
Normal modified cooking oil doesn't become any thinner and yet the mechanical noise from the engine is more pronounced. Having tried the modified olive oil, which is slightly more viscous, I wouldn't be tempted by the cheap cooking oil anymore.
Why make the bio-diesel anyway, apart from as an interesting exercise ? Kerosene is the base ingredient of commercial diesel mixes and is readily available, ordinary diesel fuel will also work as proved by chevy. I can't see an oil which has been modified to produce a fuel being any good as a lubricant.... too thin. The oils used in model engines and 2 stroke engines in motorcycles pass through the engine without being burnt off, thus they lubricate from start to finish of the cycle and also carry away with them heat.... the carrying away of heat when the oil is expelled is an important factor. The modified veggie oils pass through the engine without burning off.
Reg
#405
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From: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
Ahh! I misread the MSDS for the Canadian Tire Cetane stuff. - .1 to 1% is the 1,2,4-trimethylbenzene.
However Stoddard solvent is listed as being 60 to 100% of this product.
Guess what Stoddard Solvent is? Trick question, I could also ask - guess what is also primarily Stoddard Solvent? Andy, think back to your putting a throttle on a very small diesel for someone and while holding in your hand, flipped the prop and it ran for a short while.
Answer WD40! Autoignition temperature of Stoddar Solvent is typically listed as around 210 Deg C
WD40 60 - 70 % Stoddard Solvent and 10 - 30 % Pertroleum base.
I wonder if WD40 would work as well as the Candian tire Cetane Boost product, that is of course there is some secret chemical in it that is not listed on the MSDS that is doing the actual Cetane boost / ignition improvement.
Of course through out our discussions of model diesel engine fuels with respect to Cetane Boosts and ignition improvers we are only thinking of the equation from our point of view. The point of view for someone in industry whose primary focus is auto and truck diesels may be very differnet with quite different requirements.
This has me chomping on the bit, need to find some time and nice weathe to try some of these ideas.
cheers, Graham in rainy, wet, cold Eastern Ontario.
However Stoddard solvent is listed as being 60 to 100% of this product.
Guess what Stoddard Solvent is? Trick question, I could also ask - guess what is also primarily Stoddard Solvent? Andy, think back to your putting a throttle on a very small diesel for someone and while holding in your hand, flipped the prop and it ran for a short while.
Answer WD40! Autoignition temperature of Stoddar Solvent is typically listed as around 210 Deg C
WD40 60 - 70 % Stoddard Solvent and 10 - 30 % Pertroleum base.
I wonder if WD40 would work as well as the Candian tire Cetane Boost product, that is of course there is some secret chemical in it that is not listed on the MSDS that is doing the actual Cetane boost / ignition improvement.
Of course through out our discussions of model diesel engine fuels with respect to Cetane Boosts and ignition improvers we are only thinking of the equation from our point of view. The point of view for someone in industry whose primary focus is auto and truck diesels may be very differnet with quite different requirements.
This has me chomping on the bit, need to find some time and nice weathe to try some of these ideas.
cheers, Graham in rainy, wet, cold Eastern Ontario.
#406
Thread Starter

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Reg,
Only one reason for making biodiesel fuel and that's for the fun of doing stuff and finding things out. You can read about things and say, OK, but then you can do the thing and say, I'll be darned. A lot more fun.
Look at the fun your having making lube oil. Hey, lube oil along with biodiesel. And WD40 as an ignition improver. [X(][>:][X(]
I like your test of olive oil. Good for the arteries so it's GOT to be good for engines.
I just got a gallon of coconut oil real cheap. Going to sacrifice a litre to make biodiesel. Never know. And then there's olive oil for fuel. [8D]
Graham,
I know what you mean. Got lots of time, it's the *&%$# weather.
WD 40 eh? What you say that WD40 is mostly trimethylbenzene? Well, I've got lots of that. Damn rain.
Only one reason for making biodiesel fuel and that's for the fun of doing stuff and finding things out. You can read about things and say, OK, but then you can do the thing and say, I'll be darned. A lot more fun.
Look at the fun your having making lube oil. Hey, lube oil along with biodiesel. And WD40 as an ignition improver. [X(][>:][X(]
I like your test of olive oil. Good for the arteries so it's GOT to be good for engines.
I just got a gallon of coconut oil real cheap. Going to sacrifice a litre to make biodiesel. Never know. And then there's olive oil for fuel. [8D]Graham,
I know what you mean. Got lots of time, it's the *&%$# weather.
WD 40 eh? What you say that WD40 is mostly trimethylbenzene? Well, I've got lots of that. Damn rain.
#407
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From: Ottawa,
ON, CANADA
ORIGINAL: 1705493-AndyW
WD 40 eh? What you say that WD40 is mostly trimethylbenzene? Well, I've got lots of that. Damn rain.
WD 40 eh? What you say that WD40 is mostly trimethylbenzene? Well, I've got lots of that. Damn rain.
Not only is it raining but the short term temperature forcast is for temps about 10 degrees below seasonal norms. I hope this doesn't mean a long snowy winter!
cheers, Graham
#408
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Graham,
Alright, Canadian Tire's, MotoMaster cetane booster, as made by Shrader is mostly Stoddard Solvent. And WD 40 is mostly Stoddard Solvent, And, a quick trip to Canadian Tire got me a jug of Pennzoil Gas Mileage Treatment. Ingredient? Stoddard Solvent.
What is it, this Stoddard Solvent?
Here,
http://hazmap.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/ha...lAgents&id=179
We are told, it's a mix of Aliphatic and alicylic hydrocarbons, that sometimes, (but not always) contains benzene.
And here,
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/pr...3/icsc0361.pdf
We are told that it's a,
"Colorless liquid with a kerosene-like odor, Stoddard solvent is a mixture of straight and branched chain paraffins (48%), naphthenes (38%) and aromatic hydrocarbons (14%).The odor threshold is 1 to 30 ppm. [ACGIH]
So, the ubiquitous WD 40 and a common gas treatment might act as an ignition improver in our little diesel engines. Who would have thought? Well, I always wondered what was in all of those slick looking products on the shelf at Canadian Tire. Most of them just say petroleum distillates. Maybe most of them are made from the same basic ingredient.
But right now, the only product that I'm sure works as well as Amsoil cetane booster is MotoMaster's cetane booster. The other stuff will be tested as soon as possible. If it's still raining tomorrow, I may be getting pretty wet. [X(]
Alright, Canadian Tire's, MotoMaster cetane booster, as made by Shrader is mostly Stoddard Solvent. And WD 40 is mostly Stoddard Solvent, And, a quick trip to Canadian Tire got me a jug of Pennzoil Gas Mileage Treatment. Ingredient? Stoddard Solvent.
What is it, this Stoddard Solvent?
Here,
http://hazmap.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/ha...lAgents&id=179
We are told, it's a mix of Aliphatic and alicylic hydrocarbons, that sometimes, (but not always) contains benzene.
And here,
http://www.ilo.org/public/english/pr...3/icsc0361.pdf
We are told that it's a,
"Colorless liquid with a kerosene-like odor, Stoddard solvent is a mixture of straight and branched chain paraffins (48%), naphthenes (38%) and aromatic hydrocarbons (14%).The odor threshold is 1 to 30 ppm. [ACGIH]
So, the ubiquitous WD 40 and a common gas treatment might act as an ignition improver in our little diesel engines. Who would have thought? Well, I always wondered what was in all of those slick looking products on the shelf at Canadian Tire. Most of them just say petroleum distillates. Maybe most of them are made from the same basic ingredient.
But right now, the only product that I'm sure works as well as Amsoil cetane booster is MotoMaster's cetane booster. The other stuff will be tested as soon as possible. If it's still raining tomorrow, I may be getting pretty wet. [X(]
#409
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Aha,
Here,
http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidpl...ite&type=names
we find out what petroleum distillates means.
STODDARD SOLVENT.
Here,
http://chem.sis.nlm.nih.gov/chemidpl...ite&type=names
we find out what petroleum distillates means.
STODDARD SOLVENT.
#410
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From: Barrow in Furness, UNITED KINGDOM
Andy,
I go along with your views.... making stuff for yourself is fun, and hey, we might discover something.
So far we have discovered that our model diesels will run with very little or even no ether at all in their fuel.
The trick to using these low or non-ether fuels is not to be afraid of using a starter motor to get the diesel going.
I am concerned though that the bio-diesel will fail as a lubricant, Graham found that his engine keeled over with little and big end failure after an hour running bio-diesel without any other lubricant.
I know you are just itching to get out there testing but premature engine failure isn't going to make for a happy day !
When I get the litre of castor oil I ordered I want to do some extended testing.....
The engine is an old PAW 2.49 non-RC. It is in very good condition but I don't actually have a use for it so this engine will be offered up as a sacrifice ! It will be used to protect my other PAW's !
First I want to do extensive runs a 10% ether mix using castor as the lubricant at 24%. If the castor will mix then I will also do long runs with a non-ether fuel using 24 % castor again. If it won't mix then I will try it with a 5% ether mix just so I can get the castor to disperse into the paraffin.
Once the castor based tests are done then I want to do the same but using modified olive oil as the lubricant. I aim to run the engine for long periods so that I can establish that the modified olive oil is a lubricant that will survive long term use.
When I did the testing yesterday the PAW ran for an hour or so. The only time it was stopped was to fill the tank again and it never cooled down between engine runs. That was using a 10% ether mix and a non-ether mix, both made with modified olive oil. The engine didn't, and after cleaning it up doesn't, show any signs of wear.
Only a looooong test period will prove that the modified olive oil is up to the job, although it is looking promising so far.
I am looking to establish a good base lubricant that is easily available and will mix readily with kerosene and has been proved to give long term protection to the engine... so... gotta go do it myself
Having some proper castor oil to play with will also give me a chance to see what is needed to get it to disperse in kerosene. Getting the castor involves an 80 mile round trip to my "local" hobby shop.
If modified olive oil is OK long term then it would be much more convenient to use !
Reg
I go along with your views.... making stuff for yourself is fun, and hey, we might discover something.
So far we have discovered that our model diesels will run with very little or even no ether at all in their fuel.
The trick to using these low or non-ether fuels is not to be afraid of using a starter motor to get the diesel going.
I am concerned though that the bio-diesel will fail as a lubricant, Graham found that his engine keeled over with little and big end failure after an hour running bio-diesel without any other lubricant.
I know you are just itching to get out there testing but premature engine failure isn't going to make for a happy day !
When I get the litre of castor oil I ordered I want to do some extended testing.....
The engine is an old PAW 2.49 non-RC. It is in very good condition but I don't actually have a use for it so this engine will be offered up as a sacrifice ! It will be used to protect my other PAW's !
First I want to do extensive runs a 10% ether mix using castor as the lubricant at 24%. If the castor will mix then I will also do long runs with a non-ether fuel using 24 % castor again. If it won't mix then I will try it with a 5% ether mix just so I can get the castor to disperse into the paraffin.
Once the castor based tests are done then I want to do the same but using modified olive oil as the lubricant. I aim to run the engine for long periods so that I can establish that the modified olive oil is a lubricant that will survive long term use.
When I did the testing yesterday the PAW ran for an hour or so. The only time it was stopped was to fill the tank again and it never cooled down between engine runs. That was using a 10% ether mix and a non-ether mix, both made with modified olive oil. The engine didn't, and after cleaning it up doesn't, show any signs of wear.
Only a looooong test period will prove that the modified olive oil is up to the job, although it is looking promising so far.
I am looking to establish a good base lubricant that is easily available and will mix readily with kerosene and has been proved to give long term protection to the engine... so... gotta go do it myself

Having some proper castor oil to play with will also give me a chance to see what is needed to get it to disperse in kerosene. Getting the castor involves an 80 mile round trip to my "local" hobby shop.
If modified olive oil is OK long term then it would be much more convenient to use !
Reg
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Something that I thought about a while ago, but perhaps deserves a mention......
When playing about with lubricants other than castor oil I reckon it is vital to ensure that the engine doesn't run with a lean mix.
A chief benefit of using castor oil is that it will protect the engine against a lean mix and the very high temperatures generated much better than any other oil, including synthetics. Nothing has quite the same protective qualities that castor oil provides.
It will be far safer to run the engine slightly rich, but NEVER lean when using alternative lubricants. This means we need to remember that the engine "unloads" a bit in flight and the mix will go a bit leaner as it will when the tank level drops low.
If playing with "modified" vegetable oils it would not be a good idea to subject them to operating conditions that only castor oil could survive ! [
]
Reg
When playing about with lubricants other than castor oil I reckon it is vital to ensure that the engine doesn't run with a lean mix.
A chief benefit of using castor oil is that it will protect the engine against a lean mix and the very high temperatures generated much better than any other oil, including synthetics. Nothing has quite the same protective qualities that castor oil provides.
It will be far safer to run the engine slightly rich, but NEVER lean when using alternative lubricants. This means we need to remember that the engine "unloads" a bit in flight and the mix will go a bit leaner as it will when the tank level drops low.
If playing with "modified" vegetable oils it would not be a good idea to subject them to operating conditions that only castor oil could survive ! [
]Reg
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I have never seen my diesel get hot. If you lean it out too much it just quits. It is not like a glow engine in that regard - that is why I think Castor oil is a waste of money.
The fun thing about thease diesels is they will burn alot of different stuff so we can all have fun doing it our own way.
I've got about 20 more flying hours burning pump diesel and used oil (Black Brew) and it is working great for me. This stuff may be too messy for most people but it does run great. I haven't even been cleaning my plane. It looks like it has been in a forward combat aerodrome in WW1 for months[8D]
I will be trying it in a PAW .061 soon.
I love running this diesel. People always come up and ask about it, one guy called me "skywriter" due to the white contrail.
I fly for long time and when no one is around. I fly for 23 minuets ( 7 minuet reserve ) land and fill the tank through the fill port while the engine idles and take off again without ever shutting the engine off! Fuel cost is a non issue anymore!
The fun thing about thease diesels is they will burn alot of different stuff so we can all have fun doing it our own way.
I've got about 20 more flying hours burning pump diesel and used oil (Black Brew) and it is working great for me. This stuff may be too messy for most people but it does run great. I haven't even been cleaning my plane. It looks like it has been in a forward combat aerodrome in WW1 for months[8D]
I will be trying it in a PAW .061 soon.
I love running this diesel. People always come up and ask about it, one guy called me "skywriter" due to the white contrail.
I fly for long time and when no one is around. I fly for 23 minuets ( 7 minuet reserve ) land and fill the tank through the fill port while the engine idles and take off again without ever shutting the engine off! Fuel cost is a non issue anymore!
#413
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A chief benefit of using castor oil is that it will protect the engine against a lean mix and the very high temperatures generated much better than any other oil, including synthetics. Nothing has quite the same protective qualities that castor oil provides.
It will be far safer to run the engine slightly rich, but NEVER lean when using alternative lubricants. This means we need to remember that the engine "unloads" a bit in flight and the mix will go a bit leaner as it will when the tank level drops low.
It will be far safer to run the engine slightly rich, but NEVER lean when using alternative lubricants. This means we need to remember that the engine "unloads" a bit in flight and the mix will go a bit leaner as it will when the tank level drops low.
#414
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From: OAKEYQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Reg,
From my readings, mosy if not all vegitable oils will form varnish as the temps go up , but the amount and at what temp varies. Vegi oils like canola, peanut and other cheap oils commonly used in comercial cooking tend to be on the low end of the list. Olive oil (maybe others) tends more to castor but with a lower viscosity, modding the olive oil increases its viscosity some( which from my tests seems to be enough) as well as its ability to form larger chain molecules( ie form varnish)
Now apparently modding olive oil is not a new idear, it was used dureing WW1 as an alternative to castor oil in times of shortage.
There are other vegitable oils with similar viscosity to castor due to similar saturated fat levels, but these oils tend to "Dry"/ form varnish at too gigh a rate to be of use to us- they are used in paints as driers!
Castor is the only highly/fully saturated fat vegi oil that doent dry, and the funny thing is that olive oil even though being one of the least saturated vegi oils , modds to be similar to castor.
You noted previously that with the cheap(cooking) oils mechanical noise was higher - i found this also, but with modded olive oil the motor ran as if on castor, I also found this, but also found the olive oil still had the clean running properties of the cheaper oils as well as the easier starting qualities but not so much as the cheap oils- viscosity related I think.
Anyway I dont think that we need be too concerned with lean runs so much as whether the viscosity is sufficient for the job, and as I said previously the viscosity required is dependent on materials and fits and construction/design of the motor in use- motors with large brg surfaces will get away with lower viscosity oils as the loads are distributed over larger areas.
Motors with small dia wristpins should probably stick with useing castor , wereas motors with substantial brg surfaces will do ok on allternative oils.
Stewart
From my readings, mosy if not all vegitable oils will form varnish as the temps go up , but the amount and at what temp varies. Vegi oils like canola, peanut and other cheap oils commonly used in comercial cooking tend to be on the low end of the list. Olive oil (maybe others) tends more to castor but with a lower viscosity, modding the olive oil increases its viscosity some( which from my tests seems to be enough) as well as its ability to form larger chain molecules( ie form varnish)
Now apparently modding olive oil is not a new idear, it was used dureing WW1 as an alternative to castor oil in times of shortage.
There are other vegitable oils with similar viscosity to castor due to similar saturated fat levels, but these oils tend to "Dry"/ form varnish at too gigh a rate to be of use to us- they are used in paints as driers!
Castor is the only highly/fully saturated fat vegi oil that doent dry, and the funny thing is that olive oil even though being one of the least saturated vegi oils , modds to be similar to castor.
You noted previously that with the cheap(cooking) oils mechanical noise was higher - i found this also, but with modded olive oil the motor ran as if on castor, I also found this, but also found the olive oil still had the clean running properties of the cheaper oils as well as the easier starting qualities but not so much as the cheap oils- viscosity related I think.
Anyway I dont think that we need be too concerned with lean runs so much as whether the viscosity is sufficient for the job, and as I said previously the viscosity required is dependent on materials and fits and construction/design of the motor in use- motors with large brg surfaces will get away with lower viscosity oils as the loads are distributed over larger areas.
Motors with small dia wristpins should probably stick with useing castor , wereas motors with substantial brg surfaces will do ok on allternative oils.
Stewart
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From: OAKEYQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Greg,
You can find what your after here :- http://modelenginenews.org/faq/index.html#qa5 a good explanation on oils as applied to our motors, it kind of solves the arguement on sythetics vs castor debate and explains how and why.
Stewart
You can find what your after here :- http://modelenginenews.org/faq/index.html#qa5 a good explanation on oils as applied to our motors, it kind of solves the arguement on sythetics vs castor debate and explains how and why.
Stewart
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Since diesels don't seem to ever get hot then the main advantage of castor oil isn't of any use.
I can't really think of any modern engines of any type that use castor oil exept model airplanes so I conclude that other oils are better exept maybe for extreeme tempratures that a lean glo engine might see.
Treven.
I can't really think of any modern engines of any type that use castor oil exept model airplanes so I conclude that other oils are better exept maybe for extreeme tempratures that a lean glo engine might see.
Treven.
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From: OAKEYQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Treven,
Lean runs arent the only source of high heat, extreme frictional pressures also cause heat build up, this is particularly true in our diesels at the wristpin and to a lesser extent the bigend brg, places that Andy has found to fail in some of his tests with no/low lube fuels. So to say the benefits of castor arent relevent outside of lean runs is a misconception.
Re the other uses of castor, it is widely used in go karts and other competion 2 strokes as well, its non use in automotive 4 st's is due to its natural ability to form larger molecules , which over a short time would cause the oil to become a solid,but research is being done to stabilise vegitable oils for use in automotive 3st motors due to the looming shortage of mineral oils.
Stewart
Lean runs arent the only source of high heat, extreme frictional pressures also cause heat build up, this is particularly true in our diesels at the wristpin and to a lesser extent the bigend brg, places that Andy has found to fail in some of his tests with no/low lube fuels. So to say the benefits of castor arent relevent outside of lean runs is a misconception.
Re the other uses of castor, it is widely used in go karts and other competion 2 strokes as well, its non use in automotive 4 st's is due to its natural ability to form larger molecules , which over a short time would cause the oil to become a solid,but research is being done to stabilise vegitable oils for use in automotive 3st motors due to the looming shortage of mineral oils.
Stewart
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As you pointed out Andy was using no lube or low lube.
Even castor won't help if it isn't there.
High friction would only be the case if there wasn't enough oil in place in which case what kind the oil is that isn't there won't matter.
In a car for example, if a bearing gets hot it is from not enough oil and then the damage is already done.
If your diesel has enough oil in it to start with then as far as I can tell you can't starve it of oil by running it lean because the engine will quit first.
I don't see the advantage of cator in a diesel yet- at least not for the price. In the long run I may learn differently the hard way....
Treven.
Even castor won't help if it isn't there.
High friction would only be the case if there wasn't enough oil in place in which case what kind the oil is that isn't there won't matter.
In a car for example, if a bearing gets hot it is from not enough oil and then the damage is already done.
If your diesel has enough oil in it to start with then as far as I can tell you can't starve it of oil by running it lean because the engine will quit first.
I don't see the advantage of cator in a diesel yet- at least not for the price. In the long run I may learn differently the hard way....
Treven.
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From: OAKEYQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Treven,
If the type of oil used to lubricate a device wasnt important we wouldnt see the range of oil products on the market, oils vary greatly in there ability to lubricate at extreme pressures, this is why EP rateings are given for oils.
Stewart
If the type of oil used to lubricate a device wasnt important we wouldnt see the range of oil products on the market, oils vary greatly in there ability to lubricate at extreme pressures, this is why EP rateings are given for oils.
Stewart
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I agree with that Stewart. I still would like to know what else uses castrol oil besides model airplanes. I still think that diesels don't have the high temps that glo engines can and high temp is very hard on oil. For low temps there are many more oil choices.
Genrally EP rating are given for hypoid gear oil and grease. I haven't seen them given on engine oils.
Genrally EP rating are given for hypoid gear oil and grease. I haven't seen them given on engine oils.
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From: OAKEYQueensland, AUSTRALIA
Treven,
Most motor oils will give there EP rateing in there API or product sheet as its quite common for motor oils to be used in transmissions/differentials were the EP rateing is an important design factor.
I noted above that castor is used in gokarts and competion 2st's eg motorcycles , Klotz sells most of its benol to these users- modelers are only a small fry user. Go karters and other 2 st users have found that nothing gives protection like castor, but it does comand higher maintainance in the form of varnish removal- but if theres varnish then there would have been high wear rates with an alternative lube oil.
Stewart
Most motor oils will give there EP rateing in there API or product sheet as its quite common for motor oils to be used in transmissions/differentials were the EP rateing is an important design factor.
I noted above that castor is used in gokarts and competion 2st's eg motorcycles , Klotz sells most of its benol to these users- modelers are only a small fry user. Go karters and other 2 st users have found that nothing gives protection like castor, but it does comand higher maintainance in the form of varnish removal- but if theres varnish then there would have been high wear rates with an alternative lube oil.
Stewart
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I will start looking for EP ratings on motor oil, thanks.
Racing go carts and motorcycles probably see very high temps. My temprature checks have been done with my infared gun and I will admit that I haven't had any hot weather yet to really run fair tests. Most areas are below 200*F but I have seen the cylinder head temp as high as 236*. But the only place that needs oil is the top of the piston down and those temps seem lower. Of course there really isn't a way to check the temp of the piston itself. The only info I have is quite a bit of run time on my LA .40 with used Dello 400 at 18% - time will tell. On a two stroke the oil only gets hot onece so there is no time for the oil to degrade over time like a truck engine. Every stoke gets fresh oil.
Treven.
Racing go carts and motorcycles probably see very high temps. My temprature checks have been done with my infared gun and I will admit that I haven't had any hot weather yet to really run fair tests. Most areas are below 200*F but I have seen the cylinder head temp as high as 236*. But the only place that needs oil is the top of the piston down and those temps seem lower. Of course there really isn't a way to check the temp of the piston itself. The only info I have is quite a bit of run time on my LA .40 with used Dello 400 at 18% - time will tell. On a two stroke the oil only gets hot onece so there is no time for the oil to degrade over time like a truck engine. Every stoke gets fresh oil.
Treven.
#423
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My Feedback: (19)
Treven is heading where I'm heading. Sure castor's properties sound good, but what is reality?
A lean run means what? high temperatures or lack of oil? Consider the fact the the needle also controls how much oil is going through the engine as does the oil percentage in the fuel. So what does a lean run really do?
Yeah, I've read the MEN page and it says exactly what I mean. It doesn't say that anything other than castor is useless, you just need to know what you have.
Castor work fine but is expensive, it smells nice too. Proper selection of two stroke oils should be fine too. Even regular crankcase oil works. if you want to cook up veggie oils that's fine except you don't really know what you have in properties.
A lean run means what? high temperatures or lack of oil? Consider the fact the the needle also controls how much oil is going through the engine as does the oil percentage in the fuel. So what does a lean run really do?
Yeah, I've read the MEN page and it says exactly what I mean. It doesn't say that anything other than castor is useless, you just need to know what you have.
Castor work fine but is expensive, it smells nice too. Proper selection of two stroke oils should be fine too. Even regular crankcase oil works. if you want to cook up veggie oils that's fine except you don't really know what you have in properties.
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From: Lake Lotawana, MO
I've just read this thread through and I must say it is the most exciting development in a long time.
The last most exciting discovery was John Deere ether. The reason why, independence.
I can remember having to always worrying about opening that can on the diesel fuel and
all of the ether angels escaping leaving the fuel dead. The solution used to be fly glow, very depressing.
Now we can just shoot a can of ol' JD (not Jack Daniels) into the can of fuel and cantinue to stink up
the field. So I read this and now I realize that if I heat the cylinder with a torch I can use that
flat fuel. I haven't heard anyone try it yet but it sure sounds like this research is saying that. Now
all I have to do is take that asbestos table pad and cut a hole the size of the cylinder and heat the cylinder,
not the plane.
OK, so now I sit here and wonder how long till Andy fires up that Bio-homebrew, because, this my friends
is the big jump. A single component fuel that doesn't smell bad, not that's a hell of an idea. Of
course many questions remain, 1. Will olive oil polymerize to become a true synthetic castor oil (castor
as you remember is the only oil that becomes thicker when heated) 2. Will the Biodiesel process ruin
the olive/synthetic castor and cause it to loose it's unique properties. 3. Will the new oil both burn
and lubricate. And finally what will it take to make it work.
On to other issues, as I recall Stoddard Solvent is another name for mineral spirits, the stuff we clean brushes
with. This is the reason that your motor will start with a shot of WD 40, which is a mix of mineral spirits, and light
oil with propane as a propellant.
Has anyone noticed that solidified varnish coating on an engine after using the modified vegetable oils?
If the conversion process is indeed making a synthetic castor this might be a sign.
Well I think I have to get involved in this. I think that the Russian MK-17 is about the right research tool.
My last one got a bad case of bent nose. Anybody have one that needs a new home? I'll pay a fair price.
Andy I really look forward to hearing about your research. Perhaps there'll be a day when I can come
home from the flying field and not smell of kerosene for the next two days.
Best regards, Randy
#425
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My Feedback: (19)
OK, so now I sit here and wonder how long till Andy fires up that Bio-homebrew, because, this my friends
is the big jump. A single component fuel that doesn't smell bad, not that's a hell of an idea. Of
course many questions remain, 1. Will olive oil polymerize to become a true synthetic castor oil (castor
as you remember is the only oil that becomes thicker when heated) 2. Will the Biodiesel process ruin
the olive/synthetic castor and cause it to loose it's unique properties. 3. Will the new oil both burn
and lubricate. And finally what will it take to make it work.
is the big jump. A single component fuel that doesn't smell bad, not that's a hell of an idea. Of
course many questions remain, 1. Will olive oil polymerize to become a true synthetic castor oil (castor
as you remember is the only oil that becomes thicker when heated) 2. Will the Biodiesel process ruin
the olive/synthetic castor and cause it to loose it's unique properties. 3. Will the new oil both burn
and lubricate. And finally what will it take to make it work.
A single component fuel will never happen. Castor does not get thicker when heated(take a bottle and put it in the freezer). At a certain temperature castor polymerizes into a solid. Oil won't burn in our engines. Oil which has been esterified into fuel(the biodiesel process) will not lubricate the engine. It might be possible if we use anti friciton bearings on all rotating parts in the engine. Biodiesel doesn't have the properties to burn well in our engines anyway.
Single component fuel will only work if we have lube oil from another source, be it crankcase or oil injection as in motorcycle two stokes. Biodiesel could burn if we had high enough compression ratios. We simply don't have engines capable of burning straight B100 or any other oil.
There is no such thing as synthetic castor oil. Synthetic describes many things. Germany synthesized virtually all of their oils and fuels from natural gas during WWII.
The kerosene smell can be removed by washing with hair shampoo.
Treven, two stroke oil actually spends a certain amount of time in the engine. The only portion that gets replaced every stroke is the portion that doesn't settle on engine components. The rest migrates to the exhaust much more slowly.
http://www.maximausa.com/technical/oilmigration.html
Model four strokes do not have crankcase oil and have plenty of lubrication just from what gets past the piston ring. You wouldn't want to start one dry, but you wouldn't do that with any engine.


