Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
01-09-2008, 04:03 PM
#51
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
You guys crack me up some times. Go look around RCU. You will find 10's of thousands of NEGATIVE posts about manufacturers and products of our advertisers (and non-advertisers) throughout rcu from day one through today. They are bountiful and everywhere. To say we don't allow people to speak of a product in a negative way is BS. Anyone who wants to challenge me put up 10 grand and I'll find 100's of posts from this year alone already to prove them wrong. Any takers? LMK and I'll give you my personal attorneys escrow account and you can wire the money in and we'll have papers drawn up noting what is required for release of funds to me. I expect zero takers including the ones who claim we censor this stuff.
What we won't allow is users to say unsubstantiated statements like "XYZ company sucks". If you don't like a company say it but you better explain exactly why. Otherwise it is just bashing. Back it up or don't post it. Same goes with products. If you have a problem then post it but give details. Don't just say "This xyz plane (or car, boat, etc) is garbage." Give specifics of why you felt the quality was inferior and your posts will remain. Of the millions of posts here on rcu there are 100's of thousands that leave products in a less than stellar light. Wonder why RCU gets more posts and visitors then any other site? We do something right here. If we didn't everyone would leave and not just Al.
What we won't allow is users to say unsubstantiated statements like "XYZ company sucks". If you don't like a company say it but you better explain exactly why. Otherwise it is just bashing. Back it up or don't post it. Same goes with products. If you have a problem then post it but give details. Don't just say "This xyz plane (or car, boat, etc) is garbage." Give specifics of why you felt the quality was inferior and your posts will remain. Of the millions of posts here on rcu there are 100's of thousands that leave products in a less than stellar light. Wonder why RCU gets more posts and visitors then any other site? We do something right here. If we didn't everyone would leave and not just Al.
01-09-2008, 04:13 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Bob--I do agree with your last statement but,,,,there is a diplomatic way of stating one's view on a bad product. I have seen people come here and post that xyz product is a piece of sh$t, instead of pointing out the short comings of the product in a sensible manor as they see it. No one should be stopped from stating their views on a product even if they are not positive.
So far I have not been asked to change any view I have posted, had a few deleted d/t relevance after a thread has been cleaned up though.
Edit: I feel out right bashing without substantiation should not be tolerated under any circumstance.
So far I have not been asked to change any view I have posted, had a few deleted d/t relevance after a thread has been cleaned up though.
Edit: I feel out right bashing without substantiation should not be tolerated under any circumstance.
01-09-2008, 04:22 PM
#53
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
As a follow up to my last post...check out the product reviews in our magazine. There are many that are not exactly positive and many more that point out the good points of the products as well as the negatives in quite a lucid way. The forums have no value if information doesn't flow correctly. It also doesn't work if people just bash without backing it up and explaining why a company is bad or why the product is "garbage".
It is but a small fraction of less than 1% of the posts made here on RCU that are ever moderated. Probably somewhere between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 2000 average.
It is but a small fraction of less than 1% of the posts made here on RCU that are ever moderated. Probably somewhere between 1 in 1000 and 1 in 2000 average.
01-09-2008, 04:39 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Bear in mind as you chase the old timers away that much of the reason others come to a forum is to obtain knowledge from the old timers. Those with the experience pass on to those who don't. Those who don't have the expreience are the lions share of product buyers. They are the ones getting into the hobby and buying shopping carts full of stuff from all the advertisers based largely on what the old timers tell them to buy. Think not? Ask a couple of manufacturers how many containers of product have been sold based on my recommendations. That's $$$ to any advertiser and the only reason they are in business. Other old timers have the same ability simply because they have the knowledge, tell the truth, and convey it effectively. Most all of them have already been named somewhere in this thread. The guy you just helped out the door designs and makes engines. A tremendous knowledge bank wasted, and for what?
Andres
01-09-2008, 04:44 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
AndresAM---I can guarantee you that the person I think you are referring to (that made that statement) has no ties be it money or ownership in any RC company.
01-09-2008, 05:55 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
I think, that the wording used defines bashing, or telling of positive/negative experience.
If for example a carb has been quite contaminated with locktite: (happened to one of my customers) he could say:
1) that engine is a load of crap! I swung my arm out of function trying to start it and never got to run it right! (Etc, more offensive stuff)
or
2) I had a carb issue (explains ...). The dealer first would not believe me, but finally we solved the issue.
The first I would consider bashing.
The second is problem reporting which helps us all understand the products we have in use or plan to buy.
If for example a carb has been quite contaminated with locktite: (happened to one of my customers) he could say:
1) that engine is a load of crap! I swung my arm out of function trying to start it and never got to run it right! (Etc, more offensive stuff)
or
2) I had a carb issue (explains ...). The dealer first would not believe me, but finally we solved the issue.
The first I would consider bashing.
The second is problem reporting which helps us all understand the products we have in use or plan to buy.
01-09-2008, 06:20 PM
#58
RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
ORIGINAL: Bob Pastorello
It is NOT bashing a product or manufacturer to tell the world on RCU that a particular example of a product you BOUGHT was a piece o'crap. At least, not in MY opinion, for whatever minimal value that is.
If I buy, and use, a specific product that fails miserably to meet my expectations, or doesn't match my interpretation of the advertised performance..... well, telling my tale is NOT "bashing". And heaven forbid (providing the post doesn't get moderated) that someone actually posts THEIR experience that happens to match mine. Then, depending on day of week, phase of moon, height of sunspot cycle, relative humidity or some other unknown causative factor..... the whole THREAD may be locked tight. Because someone told their "trash" experience with an inferior product.
If an honest person cannot tell his factual negative experience with a product, what is the good of having the forum? Are we that paranoid and fearful of advertising revenue from a product that is going to disappoint the market? If so, that is VERY short sighted.
It is NOT bashing a product or manufacturer to tell the world on RCU that a particular example of a product you BOUGHT was a piece o'crap. At least, not in MY opinion, for whatever minimal value that is.
If I buy, and use, a specific product that fails miserably to meet my expectations, or doesn't match my interpretation of the advertised performance..... well, telling my tale is NOT "bashing". And heaven forbid (providing the post doesn't get moderated) that someone actually posts THEIR experience that happens to match mine. Then, depending on day of week, phase of moon, height of sunspot cycle, relative humidity or some other unknown causative factor..... the whole THREAD may be locked tight. Because someone told their "trash" experience with an inferior product.
If an honest person cannot tell his factual negative experience with a product, what is the good of having the forum? Are we that paranoid and fearful of advertising revenue from a product that is going to disappoint the market? If so, that is VERY short sighted.
Bob,
I agree with you totally. No quibbles at all with what you said.
However, I was talking about a whole different beast when I mentioned bashing. You've seen it. Everyone has. A guy starts posting about how bad his engine is. A lot of the time, it is evident that he doesn't know how to tune it, prop it, etc. Okay, no problem. The problem is when some members expect to post their beefs over and over and over. Their only intent is to bash the product. They don't care about getting help. They don't care that tech support is bending over backwards to help them. They don't care that we are trying to tell them in a kind way what to do to fix it.
I've had the competitors of some manufacturer who is getting bashed write me PMs asking that it stop. They know it isn't fair. They even tell me that it is the competition they are trying to help by getting the bashing to stop.
01-09-2008, 06:25 PM
#59
RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
ORIGINAL: AndresAM
What about the other side of the coin. People like the one who wrote this who come everyday to these forums and make advertising for some companies products whithout openly adimtting what the relationship with that company is? If bashing a company should be banned, this should be banned too. Nobody does this for free, there has to be some $$$$ involved.
Andres
What about the other side of the coin. People like the one who wrote this who come everyday to these forums and make advertising for some companies products whithout openly adimtting what the relationship with that company is? If bashing a company should be banned, this should be banned too. Nobody does this for free, there has to be some $$$$ involved.
Andres
Yes, that happens. It isn't fair if they don't disclose their financial interests behind their opinions and criticisms. I try to contact those people and tell them to put their links to products in their signature line as the rules say they must.
Most don't realize the need and are happy to do it. A few don't like it and consider it a form of harassment. Some get mad and leave.
01-09-2008, 06:35 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
ORIGINAL: RCadmin
As a follow up to my last post...check out the product reviews in our magazine. There are many that are not exactly positive and many more that point out the good points of the products as well as the negatives in quite a lucid way.
As a follow up to my last post...check out the product reviews in our magazine. There are many that are not exactly positive and many more that point out the good points of the products as well as the negatives in quite a lucid way.
CR
01-09-2008, 07:28 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Hi Charley, howdy.
You know, and I know, there are exceptions to that rule. Not many I must shamefully confess, but still.
When I find something good, I like to shout it out loud for the world to hear. I also have met people who would cloak their discovery and take it with them into the grave. And yes, then there are the ones that shout over baked air, and spoil it for the rest of us.
You know, and I know, there are exceptions to that rule. Not many I must shamefully confess, but still.
When I find something good, I like to shout it out loud for the world to hear. I also have met people who would cloak their discovery and take it with them into the grave. And yes, then there are the ones that shout over baked air, and spoil it for the rest of us.
01-09-2008, 09:14 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Hello Pe,
This is thread drift on a grand scale - but Marc engdendered it.
However, my point is that I've never seen a negative review on a publishing medium which accepts advertising. After all, if you got some bad reviews from a particular reviewer, would you send him/her more free products to review, or advert with them?
CR
This is thread drift on a grand scale - but Marc engdendered it.
However, my point is that I've never seen a negative review on a publishing medium which accepts advertising. After all, if you got some bad reviews from a particular reviewer, would you send him/her more free products to review, or advert with them?
CR
01-09-2008, 09:39 PM
#64
RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
To Andres and blw,
The hidden advertiser thing was aimed directly at me. Now I want to make this clear one last time. I do not own, share a partnership, am not sponsored, or compensated in any way by anybody involved in aero modeling. Was that clear and concise enough for everyone? There have been times I have been given free product for review purposes. Since a review was required and provided the product was not free, it was worked for. That's typical of most products used for review. The product is given and the recipient works for it. RCU provided a plane for review once. Does that mean I'm sponsored or paid by RCU? I sometimes buy a plane at a discount if I promise to review the plane. If I get a hundred or two hundred bucks off the price of an 8 or 900 dollar kit, so what? I put far more than what the kit was discounted into a review. If I like it, I write accordingly. I pay exactly the same for any engine I have as anyone else does. I've been provided two engine for review which were returned to the distributor when the trails were complete. Not BME engines by the way. Now if anyone has a problem with any of that it's just too damn bad.
I spend about 6 months of the year in some God forsaken armpit of a country, working with unmanned aircraft in hostile enviornments and make damn good money at it. My wife owns her own business and it's not hobby related in any way. She takes care of animals. That's all the sponsorship or ownership of anything I have.
The hidden advertiser thing was aimed directly at me. Now I want to make this clear one last time. I do not own, share a partnership, am not sponsored, or compensated in any way by anybody involved in aero modeling. Was that clear and concise enough for everyone? There have been times I have been given free product for review purposes. Since a review was required and provided the product was not free, it was worked for. That's typical of most products used for review. The product is given and the recipient works for it. RCU provided a plane for review once. Does that mean I'm sponsored or paid by RCU? I sometimes buy a plane at a discount if I promise to review the plane. If I get a hundred or two hundred bucks off the price of an 8 or 900 dollar kit, so what? I put far more than what the kit was discounted into a review. If I like it, I write accordingly. I pay exactly the same for any engine I have as anyone else does. I've been provided two engine for review which were returned to the distributor when the trails were complete. Not BME engines by the way. Now if anyone has a problem with any of that it's just too damn bad.
I spend about 6 months of the year in some God forsaken armpit of a country, working with unmanned aircraft in hostile enviornments and make damn good money at it. My wife owns her own business and it's not hobby related in any way. She takes care of animals. That's all the sponsorship or ownership of anything I have.
01-09-2008, 09:59 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Now that's worth loggin in to support! Go Pat!!! Just one of the reasons I left, losers with accusations they couldn't support. Hey Buddy, I just sent you an e-mail about the new engine I'm designing. If you respond I promise not to sponsor you! LMAO!! BTW Marc, I never expected you to hear of me or about me but while I'm here, why don't you check my old forum profile and take a look at the user reviews I did for this outfit. Then take a look at the ones the rest of the guys in the AMA forum did. Hey Bob!! Wanna help with with some input on a kick***** new engine buddy??
Al Lewis
Al Lewis
01-09-2008, 10:13 PM
#67
RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Pat: First I do admire your expertize along with others. Maybe this guy Andres from Columbia just used the quote to try and make some kind of point....which did not sound quite right. He did say "a person like this" I f he said this person is another story. Take it easy Pat ...we want you to stick around. Please Please think of the ones who enjoy you here and just don,t let anyone get under your skin. Maybe Andres will reword his post....and say he is sorry....I hope. Best Regards Capt,n
01-09-2008, 10:30 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Might be a case of the sand fleas putting him in a bad mood
Honestly, I would have said it the same way and not been so nice about it. A couple of people here have continually accused him of being sponsored, paid, etc., I know him well, he is not. It would get old hearing it all the time.
If he had an in I would have hit him up for some good deals, but unfortunately we both pay for toys the same way[
]
Honestly, I would have said it the same way and not been so nice about it. A couple of people here have continually accused him of being sponsored, paid, etc., I know him well, he is not. It would get old hearing it all the time.
If he had an in I would have hit him up for some good deals, but unfortunately we both pay for toys the same way[
]
01-09-2008, 10:42 PM
#69
RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Well most people who know S.S. (Pat) realalize that he has given good advice for years. Who cares about one little thing by Andres? You guys are getting to darn serious again. Get that attitude....NOT TO WORRY... That statement ...should mean something....Lighten up!!! Thanks Capt,n
01-09-2008, 10:47 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
Maybe each forum could use a 'box' where the moderators move their censored posts to. All yelling, bashing, etc. are freely allowed there. Go 'there' if one wishes. That would keep the forum clean for the rest of the community.
01-09-2008, 11:12 PM
#71
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
WOW!!!! saw this thread earlier today and signed on tonight to see this!!!!! This thread is growing faster than gas prices!!!!How about a few thoughts from a guy with over 2000 posts on RCO before it crashed. I was so happy to find RCU. I lived here for a long, long time. I even remember when Bob was known as aerobob and Taurus engines were "unknown". Since I have returned after a 2 year burnout, many of my friends have disappeared. Still love RCU, but things have changed
Things I have noticed:
1-Marc gave me a place to go when there was none. RCO died and there was no decent forum for me to read "the latest".
2-There are a lot more experts here now than ever before (please note the tone
just because you think you are an expert does not really qualify. However; more people are flying and more informed than ever before. So, are they really "experts" or just 14 year olds with nothing better to do?
3-Experts tend to tick off the guys who "really know what is going on"
4-Moderators are caught in the middle
5-Somebody is going to lose
So here I am-- RC Junkie and deep thinker with "Too much time." I do a lot more reading and a lot less posting.
Word to the wise--- it's a hobby---treat it like one. People will disagree with you if you promise the sun will rise tomorrow morning. You will disagree and a moderator is sure to make the wrong decision. I know-- I make those wrong decisions every day, and boy do I pay for them! BOTTOM LINE: smart people will figure out if the sun rises. I know it is frustrating.
How about a few thoughts from a guy with over 2000 posts on RCO before it crashed. I was so happy to find RCU. I lived here for a long, long time. I even remember when Bob was known as aerobob and Taurus engines were "unknown". Since I have returned after a 2 year burnout, many of my friends have disappeared. Still love RCU, but things have changedThings I have noticed:
1-Marc gave me a place to go when there was none. RCO died and there was no decent forum for me to read "the latest".
2-There are a lot more experts here now than ever before (please note the tone
just because you think you are an expert does not really qualify. However; more people are flying and more informed than ever before. So, are they really "experts" or just 14 year olds with nothing better to do?3-Experts tend to tick off the guys who "really know what is going on"
4-Moderators are caught in the middle
5-Somebody is going to lose
So here I am-- RC Junkie and deep thinker with "Too much time." I do a lot more reading and a lot less posting.
Word to the wise--- it's a hobby---treat it like one. People will disagree with you if you promise the sun will rise tomorrow morning. You will disagree and a moderator is sure to make the wrong decision. I know-- I make those wrong decisions every day, and boy do I pay for them! BOTTOM LINE: smart people will figure out if the sun rises. I know it is frustrating.
01-09-2008, 11:34 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
ORIGINAL: Pat Roy
To Andres and blw,
The hidden advertiser thing was aimed directly at me. Now I want to make this clear one last time. I do not own, share a partnership, am not sponsored, or compensated in any way by anybody involved in aero modeling. Was that clear and concise enough for everyone? There have been times I have been given free product for review purposes. Since a review was required and provided the product was not free, it was worked for. That's typical of most products used for review. The product is given and the recipient works for it. RCU provided a plane for review once. Does that mean I'm sponsored or paid by RCU? I sometimes buy a plane at a discount if I promise to review the plane. If I get a hundred or two hundred bucks off the price of an 8 or 900 dollar kit, so what? I put far more than what the kit was discounted into a review. If I like it, I write accordingly. I pay exactly the same for any engine I have as anyone else does. I've been provided two engine for review which were returned to the distributor when the trails were complete. Not BME engines by the way. Now if anyone has a problem with any of that it's just too damn bad.
I spend about 6 months of the year in some God forsaken armpit of a country, working with unmanned aircraft in hostile enviornments and make damn good money at it. My wife owns her own business and it's not hobby related in any way. She takes care of animals. That's all the sponsorship or ownership of anything I have.
I'm really fed up with your accusations and allegations Andres. If you lived in this country you would have been sued for libel already. So unless you can prove your allegations, which you cannot because there is absolutely no truth in them, why not just shut the f**k up and p/s$ off.
To Andres and blw,
The hidden advertiser thing was aimed directly at me. Now I want to make this clear one last time. I do not own, share a partnership, am not sponsored, or compensated in any way by anybody involved in aero modeling. Was that clear and concise enough for everyone? There have been times I have been given free product for review purposes. Since a review was required and provided the product was not free, it was worked for. That's typical of most products used for review. The product is given and the recipient works for it. RCU provided a plane for review once. Does that mean I'm sponsored or paid by RCU? I sometimes buy a plane at a discount if I promise to review the plane. If I get a hundred or two hundred bucks off the price of an 8 or 900 dollar kit, so what? I put far more than what the kit was discounted into a review. If I like it, I write accordingly. I pay exactly the same for any engine I have as anyone else does. I've been provided two engine for review which were returned to the distributor when the trails were complete. Not BME engines by the way. Now if anyone has a problem with any of that it's just too damn bad.
I spend about 6 months of the year in some God forsaken armpit of a country, working with unmanned aircraft in hostile enviornments and make damn good money at it. My wife owns her own business and it's not hobby related in any way. She takes care of animals. That's all the sponsorship or ownership of anything I have.
I'm really fed up with your accusations and allegations Andres. If you lived in this country you would have been sued for libel already. So unless you can prove your allegations, which you cannot because there is absolutely no truth in them, why not just shut the f**k up and p/s$ off.
CR
01-09-2008, 11:36 PM
#73
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
People will disagree with you
01-09-2008, 11:48 PM
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RE: Losing The Experts and Their Knowledge
ORIGINAL: Panzlflyer
Experts(?) dont like to be argued with imo, all who disagree must be dumb or new!
People will disagree with you
CR