Okay, I have to step in here because I feel that I started all of this with my resignation from RCU which I honestly didn't think anyone would notice. First off, neither Pat Roy or Bob Pastorello are sponsored or support sponsors in any way. Manufacturers who regognize their expertise, due to their experience and background, ask them to "test" their products. NO, that is NOT quid pro quo or anything like it. What it means is that their opinions are valued so much that they are sought out by people that don't share the same experience or expertise level. Basically not everyone that owns an RC company knows as much about this stuff as they do. They just have the money to invest so they can get your money. Next off, "experts" as you put it are not automatically upset by people that disagree with them. What does upset a lot of people are folks with no credentials that are spouting a lot of crap just for the sake of arguing. Perfect example, the DA-50 has a problem with running rich when inverted. Most of the owners of these engines have experienced this and know the problem exists. DA knows the problem exists and answers e-mails about it every day. We have people on here that swear it doesn't. I asked them to show me a video of their DA-50 flying upright, and then inverted so we could hear how great theirs runs. Seen any videos lately???? Me either. That sort of thing makes people mad. When I get into a metalurgical discussion with a 18 year old that tells me I don't know what I'm talking about, I get pi$$ed. Finally, when we folks that you call experts, I've never called myself that, spend 8-10 hours a day on here solving folks problems, to the best of our ability, get told that a bunch of clowns that are here for nothing more then their own benefit and gains, should be heard above us, well I guess we just figure that Marc should have them jump into the beginners forum and start solving problems and promoting products. I'm not an expert on this stuff and have never claimed to be. I design the tooling used to refuel and repair this nations submarine and aircraft carrier fleet. I have recently turned my hand, and expertise, in this field to designing a new RC aircraft engine for my personal use. It should be great. Will it ever make it to market? Probably not. I'm only doing this for myself and my friends. Point is, I have the professional expertise to do that, I'm pretty damn sure that the "preferred few" in the AMA forum don't. What do you guys lose by losing me? Not much. I've written quite a few "User Reviews" and answered a lot of questions for folks but there are people that will take up the slack. Many of them more knowledgeable then me. I don't have a problem with that. So let's do this. Let's all agree to disagree. Let's all realize that the mods can't always have all of the background or always make the right decisions. Let's all realize that there are some real self-centered *** here only for their own profit and advancement. Most importantly though, let's all realize that this is a great sport and there are a lot of folks out there that would like to enjoy it. Those are the people that need our help. I can help them without taking part in this particular money making enterprize. So can you but many of them will come here and there should be someone here with some experience to greet them and advise them. So let's all agree to this, I'll just slip off quietly into the night as I intended and you guys make friends with those "experts" left so that the sport can continue. If they get really pi$$ed once in a while, so what???? Who doesn't??? Keep the clowns at bey and try and get along with the good guys, who knows Marc, you might learn something new about RC planes.

Al Lewis

Al, I think you are missing my point. The term "expert" that I use is tongue in cheek. I am not talking aboput you, but instead the people who pi$$ you off.


It is impossible for me to agree with you more!!!

It is a fact that over 80% of people who switch jobs don't do it for the money. It is because they feel they are not appreciated and their services are not held in high esteem. I really think that is the case here, especially when you factor that ALL of this is voluntary. I also agree that it is a pain to have to wade through the crap from the 18 year olds to find the gems that are hidden here. It is the pain of huge growth. I just hate to see the "Good Guys" leave.

..

Absolutely not!

Whoever reviews a product has the option of saying that it doen't meet acceptable standards, does not fit well, has poor construction, Deficient instructions, etc. When that happens the person doing the review did not make the providing company happy. If you're doing a review for a magazine or internet forum, the review may not get published because it cast a poor light on an advertising company that spends dollars for ad space.

In my case, with engines specifically, the ones I review are the ones I buy outright for the most part. The ones I was provided to test did not meet minimum standards that I set for an eninge of a particular displacment. Be that in weight, power, or reliability. So the engines went back after testing and the information developed from the tests was given to the distributor to further improve the product. Those improvements are still being made.

When I bought my Taurus 52 it was in the hope that it ran at least as well as my previous Brisons. It did, and did it better. It also performed better than any other 50 I've ever had my hands on with standard exhaust types. It blew some uav people away as well. Everywhere that engine has gone and been flown people could not believe the power, smoothness, and reliability. No other engine in it's class has been able to match it's performance. So I told people about it and to date have not asked for or received any compensation for spreading the word.

Back to Brison. At the time it was an under rated company that was taking a back seat to a popular 50 that weighed a few grams less. What a mistake since they performed better and more reliably that the popular 50. I bought two of them full pop, and later bought a 105 twin due to the quality of the product. The 105 weighs less than the most popular 100cc engine and performs comparably if not better. I paid full pop for that one as well and had to wait for the ignition to show up from CH. So where's the added benefit to me.

I paid full for my 115 as well. It still has a greater power output that any other 100cc class engine currently on the market. The machine work is an art form. If you take the time to use the search forums and read more than the first page of every thread you would note there was a point I found that some people could not obtain a good tune in certain areas with the engine. That was something that I had not seen or experienced myself except after changing a baffle design in someone else's plane. The problem was easily corrected. Now I "trusted" those that were having problms to have been reasonably knowledgable in engine tuning, since I hoped that no rank beginner was going to run out and jump into 100cc planes. Well I was wrong on that count but still felt that the engine could be easier to tune for the average dummy and revoked my endorsement from the product. In doing so it likely caused BME much pain, undeservedly since he was spending tremendous time and dollars in attempting to correct the issue. I still feel that many that had or have problems simply don't know what they are doing, but that's where it is.

As for promoting CH, well, in the work I do I get to see the performance of various rc related products and know what works and for how long because the same stuff is used in my work. I learned about some ignitions the hard way when I experienced the problems when turning $100,000 plus dollar planes into lawn darts a few hours into the first flights. DA was the next ignition tested and performed extremely well and you people were told about it. Same goes with servos and engines. I get to experience the quality levels of each and know who makes the best. Contrary to popular belief, it's not one of the two most commonly sold. I'm not going to provide the test specifics or hours of use testing, loads, cycles, or anything else for you. You did not pay for the results so you may choose to use the information or not. Whether you elect to listen is up to you.

Fromeco; another company that has made a superb quality product line that I've promoted free of charge and paid full pop for.

JR; a company that used to provide the best servos on the market that I promoted and always paid full price for.

Hitec; a company that made a high quality, low price product I promoted from the first day they hit the American shoreline that ran into some problems at one time, causing me to switch to JR, then later back to Hitec. Paid full price for them too. Now they are back up to standards that are well above what you deserve for the money spent.

Futaba; the best servo product currently available to the average consumer. I pay full for them too.

With Wild Hare aircraft I found that they performed consistently good to great and cost well less that the other products on the market. Each succeeding version of their kits has been improved over the last, making them a better value still. With the improvements came better flight qualities, to the point I found they fly at least as good, if not better, than the more expensive "name" kits available. The performance is built into the design, and Wild Hare performs their own aerodynamic design changes instead of waiting for a manufacturer to do something different. He's the leader in the design market, personally developed the 50cc plane market, and not a follow on company as most others are in the 50cc and up class of aircraft. All the other companies came after Wild Hare in 50cc plane development, and did so because of his success. I have not flown a bad one yet, and generally if I get a free plane it's a prototype design that will never make it to maket in it's current form. You, the general public, gain the benefit of flight and assembly testing with a better product than I or other had with the tested kits and products.

Now if I get a free kit, or a hundred or two hundred dollars off one and put over 100 hours into the assembly, testing, documentation, photographs, and posting, I don't see it as quid pro quo at all unless I worked for about $2.00 an hour. I don't. My hourly rate for most everything I do is $70.00 so you can do the math and let me know how much I benefitted. You are the people that benefit the most for the activities of me and others that do the same things, not us. I've never, ever, been given or discounted an engine or radio product. If you're so blind or obtuse that you can't understand that then you truly need to go back to school and take some math and business classes, starting with the absolute basics. Hopefully you will obtain a passing grade.

I'm beginning to think Al Lewis and some others are correct in their thinking. You guys don't deserve to get anything for free. All you want is something cheap. You should have to pay for it all and suffer your lumps instead of achieving success. If you have to pay for it more than once, all the better since it substantiates the position taken in this post. You can choose to believe all the "name" competitors that promote products. Those guys ARE actually paid to promote them, and paid rather well, whether they work well or not.

Guys, this is getting way out there in a hurry. As a couple of posters have noticed, some language and name calling had to be edited. This thread was given some latitude for the sake of getting a few things back on track, but it looks like it is going downhill in a hurry. You know, some of this looked helpful for a while. Any thing else that will help clear the air? Any thing else that will help everyone get along better?

If you want a truely un-moderated forum in which to complain, just try usenet! There, you can post anything, any topic, anytime.... Just have to wade through the midget porno ads to get to what you want. The AMA forum on RCU is actually quite entertaining to anyone with a sense of humor. Much like any club i've ever belonged to, you get different people who either stand behind the AMA, or just want to do nothing but complain.

Ever since joining this forum it has been a haven of information for me, and it's certaintly my loss and I suppose that of several others like myself that so many of the experts that used to reside here have decided to seek other pastures.

To those that have left and to those who are still here, you all have been great and instrumental in one way or another in assisting me in learning what little I now know about our toys, and I just thank my lucky starts that I do know how and where to find a source whenever I need some expert advice.

Karol

Ditto, I'm here for information and entertainment.

Ummm I seem to recall all the experts told Columbus the world was flat
The world is full of experts that are flat wrong so it is plain silly to beleive everthing is fact
the greatest discoveries in the world came from someone who didn't buy what an expert had to say
Now some people on here just like to argue for the sake of arguing
There are a few threads that come to mind where there is no clear right or wrong because there are just too many variables involved
the Prop Myth
Castor oil vs Syn.
2 stroke oil and ratios
I'm sure there are more

Moderator ...please do not close this thread. Most ever thing here in a way is people trying to fix a problem. Losing Experts and there knowledge. Please let people have time to read and think about this and reply as that may make the whole difference on the outcome. I have seen threads closed before by just one person insisting that it be done. Maybe a quick vote should be taken before closing a thread. Come on Guys...we need to keep all the knowledgeable ones here. Best Regards Capt,n

I am new to gas engines. I wanted to thank all the experts here whose postings I have read and benefited from. That includes Al, Pat, Bob and others. I spent an hour on the phone with Captin John one night just talking airplanes, fields and gas engines. I really wanted to express my appreciation. I hope you guys will hang in here. Your knowledge is priceless.
Thanks,
John

I'm hoping if we keep this thread open and for long enough it might make some of our experts that are already gone and those currently thinking of leaving this forum recant.

I think it's imperative that they be told that 'we' do need them. After all, humble pie ain't so bad tasting after the first swallow

Karol

I agree, experts are no gods, though most in here are old and have paid their dues in the learning curve. This is not about inventing new stuff, it is about using the old and proven things we call planes and engines.
So, if you disregard their experience that they are willing to offer you for free, it is your choice to do so. Just don't have a negative attitude about it. A little bit of respect for each other goes a long way in Fora like this one.

If I considered myself an ''expert'', as you obviously consider yourself, and I honestly came to these forums to help people I will come here everyday to give my opinion whithout never mentioning anything about any manufacturer or brand for that matter. This will be the ethical thing to do from an unbiased ''expert''. The day I see you do that I will believe all your crap. Until I see that, sorry man, I don't buy it.

Andres

Andres=Troll

Andres: I see in a way what you are saying. Let me ask you this. How would you help anyone tune or work on a engines if the brand was not mentioned?? Even different models in bands behave and tune differently. Data on engines is needed to help. Right? How else do you suggest all this can be done to satisfy everybody? I am not trying to put you or anybody on the spot. That has been done too much already. Regards Capt,n

I don't see how you could do it without mentioning a brand name.A lot of information in these forums are given to achieve performance, life or what have you equaling a certain brand that is perceived to be the best.We have to set the bar somewhere and a name almost has to be attached so people know what is going on.

Andres: It's posts like that and phrasing like that which cause problems in the forums and make a good place turn bad in a hurry. It also gets thread like this which is a heated topic closed down pretty quickly. As far as I am concerned that isn't helping anyone.

The original context of this thread was in my mind designed to be more constructive than anything... sure there is some anger fueling some of the posts and thats hard to get away from... but it is in EVERY member's best interest to keep this thread going and keep lines of communication open.

I personally urge you to rethink your phrasing in your post so that you make your point clear but your not attacking someone that has clearly tried to help many in these forums.. maybe you don't agree and you are entitled to that opinion.. but a flat out attack isn't called for.

I am surely not the best example.. as I often have shown a short fuse over the last couple of years.. but the difference is after some thought I have made the effort to think before I post. Sometimes thats hard to do.... but if everyone did that this place would be about 5x happier

I recently learned someone else who we all know in these areas of the forum has moved on. He is a very easy going guy and I was sad to see it happen. I am hoping by the end of this thread the outcome is positive and it proves to be benefical to everyone.

Well said Pe.
I am by no means an expert (except on my own opinions), but over the last 35 years I have learned a thing or two. A LOT of the time it was from "ME" breaking or screwing something up, ya never forget those mistakes. I am always up for finding a new or better way to do something and that is what reading these forums accomplishes for me. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.

My feelings are that it's time to make this a lot easier for everyone, especially me. I originally came to this forum to help but I no longer feel my presence will be of any benefit to anyone. I have other more productive things to focus on, which are profitable rather than time consuming. Some other forums I'll still be involved in as long as it remains fun. This one is fun no more.

Andres, Kweasel, DR1, and the others who know themselves, thank you for helping with the decision.

I've recieved valued info from all the experts around here over the last few years. Also from the average Joe, like myself. After reading all this I have to ask, What is it the experts want? Thanks, attaboys, or what? I know I'm thankful of all the people that have helped me over the years and I continue to look forward to helping others, when possible, and recieving help when needed.

Pat Roy: I/we realize that its not fun right now for you. Feelings do not always stay the same. Please will you consider posting once in a while.....especially if these forums get more fun. Leave us with some hope. Best Regards Capt,n

Andres,
My words cannot express the sadness I feel that Pat is leaving this forum because of your personal agenda. I feel the forum has lost an irreplaceable asset of knowledge. Pat flies more hours in a month on gas engines than the average guy does in a year. Was it really worth it? What knowledge have you got to bring to the table for the rest of us?
John

I have tried to decide whether to contribute here or not. I may regret this posting. In my time on RCU, I have been jumped on by some of the real experts and by those that were obvious newbies. While I may have been licking my wounds, I did my best to respect those that I was dealing with. I have learned a lot on these forums, and have even searched for things written by Ralph, Al, Pat and others that I consider the true experts. I have even exchanged posts with some of these people and found them to be very humble and helpful, only to find later that they were the true experts. I chose my experts by the quality of their posts, not because they called themselves experts. I even contacted Ralph once, to get information for a friend who was interested in one of his engines. Ralph asked for the application and then recommended a competitors engine. That one act "earned" my respect. Even without his gesture, I respected him because that is what civilized people do. Isn't that what is missing here, respect??? One other thought, as I read through all this information in this thread, I found myself confused as to what the arguments really were saying. It seems to me that we are looking for a black and white solution to these issues in a gray world. Just my thoughts!!! I continue to seek wisdom from those with greater experience than me. Thanks to all who have taken the time to share their years of experience.

Andy

While we would prefer not to lose Al the title of this thread is losing the experts and their knowledge.

RCU has 250,000 active users of the site each month. We get 250 to 350 new signups every day. I am quite sure somewhere in these numbers there is a bountiful amount of knowledge by countless experts. Today's newbie is tomorrows expert. We've been here for 7 years and accelerating growth. I'm sure the next 7 will bring much of the same because the same people run the site with the same policies and mission. Not everyone will agree with it and we will lose some along the way but the 8000 new bodies in every month make up for the few that take their ball and go home.

A discussion forum at times requires having a thick skin. If I cut and run everytime somebody took a stab at me (and there have been 1000's and most of them 100x more brutal then what you have seen here) I'd have been long gone just 7 years ago within weeks of starting this site. I wanted to learn though and to help others learn so you take some of the bad with all of the good.

nuff said. peace out

marc