Cpt Crash

My Feedback: (12)

Wow, this thread's hitting a nerve. But there's plenty of evidence that the DSM2 system architecture is reaching the end of its service life. It only transmits on two channels rather than the multichannel setup used by other systems, and it can't hop away when interference starts to blanket parts of the bandwidth. Again, I only had one glitch with my system. But after a very long conversation with a tech at Horizon, reviewing all aspects of the installation and aircraft setup, they had no idea as to why my system lost comms. It was nice of them to send me a new receiver, but I really wanted to know why things went wrong so I could avoid replicating the problem. Since that answer wasn't forthcoming, I chose to try another system. I don't have anything against Horizon; I'd gladly buy any of their airplanes, engines, servos, accessories, switches, etc. Just not the radios. For now.

tyrick69

Right, cause how long did that 72MHz thingy last transmitting on only one channel?! Oh that's right, I almost forgot, people are still using it.

airbusdrvr

With that as a choice, we might then get the "real" answer instead of the preconceived answer the original poster wants.

crazytracey

I had a few crashes with Spectrum was using 2700 mah battery 5 cell and a ar 7000 receiver, upon my discovery to my problem with a flight log my receiver wasn't in a good spot and when i switched LiFi battreys I needed a new charger for theses, so I out of spite I charged my 2700 pack on the new charger and whent flying and no problems yet, so I cauck this up as my charge was bad and I add a capictior for back up, It pisses you off when you lose a plane cuss the radio or piolt which ever , but what did you do to cure the problem? I thought about all the fancey euipment, two batterys ect. but I decided to keep it simple knock on wood no problems yet

Nitro777

I lost 3 planes flying with a DX7.  Sent pics to horizon (of my set up) along with the radio, recievers and all the data I had collected saying that my batteries and switches were good.  And they agreed that they were good.  I even asked horizon if they wanted witness statements from a very seasoned veteran 2.4 spektrum pilot who has had no problems.  He was there helping me during 2 of my losses.   I'm not bashing Horizon.  They are a good company.  BUT they said they could find nothing wrong with my systems or set ups.  I asked if there was anything that would cause the problems that I had they simply said "we don't know".  I now fly Futaba 2.4.  Haven't had an issue.  I'll drive a Ford or a Chevy depending on which one satifies me the most.  The same goes for my radioes.  I don't bash Ford when I'm driving a Chevy and I don't bash Chevy when I'm driving a Ford but both have had there problems over the years just like Futaba and JR have.  Needless to say Spektrum may have a problem judging by what's going on at flying fields.  Futabas overheat but Spektrum still has no solid cause as to why people are losing signals.

dhooker

I have had two crashes since I started flying with Spectrum equipment, both instances were caused by either battery failure or in the first instance battery disconneted from received pack due to excessive roll during extreme manuevers. I have had to on occasion rebind a receiver but can attribute all instances to poor battery performance. I have seen others state that they experienced lock-out but in most cases from what I observed it was pilot/engineer error; failure to ensure your battery was well connected, properly charged or not so old that battery failed at the most in-opportunte time. I generally fly .60 and smaller aircraft on 4.8V but am in the process of installing 5 cell packs in all of my planes. No rush because generally all of my problems were my fault. Or just bad luck with battery age.

sgillmore

My Feedback: (50)

It's been said before, but it bears repeating in this thread. We also need to keep in mind the percentage of people using each system. I don't know what the numbers are, but the JR-Spektrum/Futaba/Hitec ratio is probably similar to the Windows/Mac/Linux ratio. From a statistical point of view, we're going to hear about more JR-Spektrum problems because there are many more of the systems in use.

Personally, I think it's a factor. ALL manufacturers will release a (hopefully small) percentage of defective units. JR-Spektrum probably produces more than the other two simply because they produce more overall units. Hypothetically, let's say I crash something using a X9303/AR7000 setup. There are so many people using DSM2 stuff, the odds are much greater that I'm going to find others that have crashed using a similar setup. A couple more see the thread, then it takes on a life of it's own. Kind of like "herd behavior".

I'm not saying that DSM2 technology doesn't have have any problems. Heck, it's an electronic device designed and manufactured by human beings. However, we should keep the number of reports in perspective. Personally, I use DSM2 (X9303) and AFHSS (Aurora) and have never had so much as a glitch on either. I think 75% of it is setup/installation and the other 25% is sheer luck. [8D]

fizzwater2

My Feedback: (61)

sgillmore - well said! Build enough of anything, and you'll find issues - be they design, installation, operation

I work in the navigation electronics business - our customers buy spares for that reason, in a complex enough system, eventually something will fail.

I remember when PCM and failsafe was first coming out.. crashed a lot of airplanes at first. Not so much any more.

rosek007

So basically what you're saying is it's ok if for eg. toyota makes 10 cars and ford makes 5 for toyota to have for eg 5 that the brakes don't work and ford will have 1 because they make less???? when exactly did we become a society of people that settle for that???, shouldn't they at some point get it right because they make so much more??? common sense to me states if you sell that much more than the competition at a higher price you should atleast do the r&d to ensure your product works before giving it to the public, unless you think they are a bunch of drones who will buy whatever you put out working or not and when it doesn't work make more off them by selling them the extra parts to make it work heck Steve jobs must get his business sense from JR why he was so succesfull with the iphone 4...It doesn't have a good signal either untill you buy the extra parts to put around the phone so it can get a signal...atleast he had the respect for his customers to give them the parts to make it work for free and don't keep shovelling the concept of buy more to make it work down his customer's throats... good point though I'm sure that will clear it up for a lot of people, meanwhile i'll herd off to fly with my considerable less expensive system and hope i don't get hit with a plane when one of those mass produced not well setup systems gets a lockout.



Kevin

Mike Wiz

My Feedback: (2)

Lots of people crash and blame all sorts of equipment where there are other reasons for the crash. Many times the reasons are negligence on the pilots part or an unwillingness to admit making a flying mistake. I flew Spektrum several receivers for 2 years without a single glitch. I did have one AR6100 that required me to rebind it on 2 occasions before I could fly. I have since switched to an Airtronics SD-10G but it had nothing to do with the reliability of the Spectrum gear. It was a transmitter feature and price point thing. That Spektrum stuff was as solid as anything I've ever used.

Rafael23cc

My Feedback: (6)

If you feel insulted that is your problem, I did not insult anybody. On the other hand, you seem to be personally insulting me with your comments.

Since chaning to 2.4, I have logged well over 750 flights on helicopters (hint: Metal, carbon fiber and plastic components; NOT wood) without an issue. Also I changed my battery system to a 7.2 regulated system. I threw away the 4.8 crap, because I knew it was not up to par for the 5 digital servos, 1 gyro, and 1 governor installed on my machines. I've seen a number of helicopters go down on 2.4, and the endstate is always the same, installation. So yes, I believe that gives me the experience to talk about installation problems, since mine are still flying and I've experienced others that are not. Sorry I was not there to see your airplanes fall out the sky.

You missed the point. By just shear volume of product sold, there is a chance that a certain percentage of the units will sneak by Quality Control and end up being defective. I used to work at a large company and that is the sad truth. The product is the best they can design, produce and it gets better every time they re-design it but that is at the prototype level. When you talk about mass production, they do not have time or resources to check every single unit produced, so there is a chance that some will end up defective. This cannot be avoided. How much do you want to pay for a receiver?

Rafael

sgillmore

My Feedback: (50)

Actually, I didn't say it was "OK". I was simply stating (IMHO) what I see as reality. I agree with Rafael23cc in that I think you missed the point, but I'm not sure how else to present it.

I do agree with you on one point...I love my less-expensive AFHSS radio (with more features). It's slowly replacing my DSM2 stuff. I just have to admit that I've never had one problem with my DX7, X9303 or any of the DSM2 receivers...other than cost...and I like to see these discussions as unbiased as possible. Going back to my Micro$oft comparison, that's where I think JR is. I think market share has made the arrogant and complacent.

rosek007

I don't think i missed the point at all, lets use the jr 9503 for eg...didn't they have to recall them all? I absolutely agree that when a product is being sold in high volumes there will be one, two a few or even a few hundred that missed the mark, But having a weakness in your system and ignoring it is and should be unacceptable not only to the JR owners but also to the folks that put their life in danger everytime they are at the airfield when someone there is flying with a jr cause you don't know when one of the the accepted lockous/brownouts are going to happen. If you or I should go up to the first 10 people we meet with a JR tx and ask how many lockouts/brownouts or crashes they have had with it and 10 people that have the fasst system and ask the same what do you think the result will be? Maybe thats the next poll WB1 should do...
I would but at this point I would be super biased because of my experience...

Kevin

Nitro777

Kevin, I asked that same question before about 10 Fast setups vs. 10 Spektrum set ups o a thread just likethis one not too long agoand nobody had the cojones to answer honestly. This question and topic will continue until JR/Spektrum and all the people using the systems admits that a obviuous problem is there and it needs to be fixed. It's that simple. Sometimes the truth hurts.

HunkaJunk

What is the obvious problem? I use the JR system with only the supplied single satellite receiver, I do not own a flight log. I have Many Many flights with very few crashes, the few crashes I have can't be blamed on the radio, If I blamed the few crashes I have on the radio, I would be shirking responsibility for pilot error or a failed component and make myself look like a boob.

I can assure you, if I thought there was even the slightest problem I would discontinue using it immediately.

I also assure you that every single one of my posts is 100% truthful. If you are saying I'm a liar you should find a way to make your point without doing so, as it only reflects on yourself. If there was an inherent problem I would see it, and so would the AMA. So until me, someone I know, or the AMA sees these unexplained crashes / lockouts, I cannot say there is any kind of a problem with DSM2.

Speedy-Gonzales

My Feedback: (202)

"sgillmore" has summed it all up here guys. What need is there for any other discussion? RC is a risk.....a gamble. I have lost some very expensive aircraft and went home without crying and started all over again! Much like a detective...not all crimes are solved. When they are solved.....make darned sure you do not do it again.

" We learn from our mistakes....that is why I am so damned smart!!"

sgillmore

My Feedback: (50)

To be clear, I'm not claiming that DSM2 doesn't have a problem. Only that I haven't experienced one. I believe that a lot of the lock-outs may be real DSM2 problems, but I also think it's fair to acknowledge the thousands of DSM2 systems that are working flawlessly. Everyone can then weigh the facts and the claims and make their own decision.

Across three clubs that I fly with, I'm only aware of one issue. A friend of mine, and very experienced R/C pilot, using two separate AR6110e receivers on two separate foamies experienced lock-outs inside a gymnasium (they seemed to work fine outdoors). He sent them in, Horizon applied a firmware update and they've been fine since. Definitely an inexplicable lock-out though that I'm not trying to defend. Even foamies can add up if you put nice gear in them!

sgillmore

My Feedback: (50)

Actually, I think you just summed it up nicely!

dougclind

@rafael
Well I do believe you have got it, Mr. Morden.
Yes I was being personally insulting to you and your response indicates I was justified in doing so. You don't think you insulted all of us who have experienced these unexplainable crashes when you make the comment about improper setup? I was right in throwing it back in your face because I and several others took the time to detail the circumstances and the setup. YOU didn't seem to have read those posts before you made that inane "setup" comment. Obviously most crashes ARE caused by pilot error and improper setup. That's not what this thread is about. It's all about when the setup WAS right and nothing SHOULD have gone wrong, yet it did. So when you jump in here shooting your mouth off about improper setup, you directly insult a lot of people. If you can't see that then it's because you just won't admit it.

I'll give you one thing though. You apparently are capable of cogent thought because your response to rosek007 was fairly good. The only thing I might add is that I really don't think this is a matter of defective units. The situations seems to be that a rx works perfectly for many flights, then locks up once, and then performs perfectly afterward. This seems to me to be an unanticipated failure mode, i.e. a design inadequacy. As both a ham radio operator, electrical engineer, and software developer I can totally see that happening. There may even be more than one hidden failure mode lurking in the background. And as I've pointed out before, I've seen it happen to a 2.4 Futaba system also. Maybe the 2.4 GHz spectrum is too crowded. Maybe something else. But I do believe there is something real here.

You know, it's almost like the UFO business. 90% or more of the sightings are explainable but there's that 10% or so by reliable witnesses that you can't deny. Probably the majority of lock ups can be explained by brownouts or some other setup problem. It's just that percentage of incidents that are outside of those reasons that we're talking about on this thread. That's why I get so ticked off when people ignorantly lump all the occurrences into the "improper setup" box. Especially when we take pains to explain that wasn't it!! Maybe, Rafael, you didn't intend on overtly insulting people but you did. And after having heard the same stupid comment by many people, I got totally fed up with it.

Nitro777

All right hunkajunk.  What about the 41 people who have had problems as the survey says.  Are you going to call that a lie??? Why are you so paranoid about being a liar unless you are one?  Nobody said you are so calm down.  I am sorry for generalizing and saying all need to admit that there is a problem.  Alot of people have a hard time admitting when something might be wrong, especially when the wrong hasn't occured to them.  Just because DSM2 hasn't failed you doesn't change the fact that 41 people in the survey have had problems.  Maybe the AMA or someone with the knowledge could research how many units were sold over a certain time span from horizon and futaba.  Then do a comparison of total failures between the 2 companies based on units sold.  I have a feeling that this information, if found, would shock alot of people.  Perhaps the AMA won't research in fear that some of the loyalty from certain manufacturers would disappear  if they came out with some shocking results.  Whether the results are in Futaba or JRs favor.  Instead of everyone speculating (including me) why don't we search for the undeniable truth on this issue.  I'm sure somebody impartial to all of this could come up with solid numbers.  Like I said I don't have the knowledge much less time to even start this type of research.  I already tried calling Horizon and they wouldn't give me the number of 2.4 systems sold over the past year.  I would expect them to be proud of that number.

MTK

I've flown JR since their beginning in this country, around 1980. Flew AM, then FM and quickly into FM/PCM. Frequencies were various but all in the 72 MHz band. I am a big fan of JR stuff.

However, this year I started flying the 12X and had problems immediately. The problems were not radio link related but they were problems nonetheless which Horizon repaired promptly. About 1 month ago I campaigned the same 12X TX with a Spektrum AR9000 RX which was purchased at the time the 2 for 1 sale was going on on RXs. The 9000 range was very poor not even half of what it should have been. The radio link was bad. Horizon replaced both RXs free of charge. That tells me that the AR9000 may have some problems...not every RX but some.

Other friends fly the AR9000 in 40% aerobats and have had no problems. I did

I have not flown the replaced AR9000 yet but will this weekend. We'll see what happens

rosek007

Well I do believe you have got it, Mr. Morden.
Yes I was being personally insulting to you and your response indicates I was justified in doing so. You don't think you insulted all of us who have experienced these unexplainable crashes when you make the comment about improper setup? I was right in throwing it back in your face because I and several others took the time to detail the circumstances and the setup. YOU didn't seem to have read those posts before you made that inane ''setup'' comment. Obviously most crashes ARE caused by pilot error and improper setup. That's not what this thread is about. It's all about when the setup WAS right and nothing SHOULD have gone wrong, yet it did. So when you jump in here shooting your mouth off about improper setup, you directly insult a lot of people. If you can't see that then it's because you just won't admit it.

I'll give you one thing though. You apparently are capable of cogent thought because your response to rosek007 was fairly good. The only thing I might add is that I really don't think this is a matter of defective units. The situations seems to be that a rx works perfectly for many flights, then locks up once, and then performs perfectly afterward. This seems to me to be an unanticipated failure mode, i.e. a design inadequacy. As both a ham radio operator, electrical engineer, and software developer I can totally see that happening. There may even be more than one hidden failure mode lurking in the background. And as I've pointed out before, I've seen it happen to a 2.4 Futaba system also. Maybe the 2.4 GHz spectrum is too crowded. Maybe something else. But I do believe there is something real here.

You know, it's almost like the UFO business. 90% or more of the sightings are explainable but there's that 10% or so by reliable witnesses that you can't deny. Probably the majority of lock ups can be explained by brownouts or some other setup problem. It's just that percentage of incidents that are outside of those reasons that we're talking about on this thread. That's why I get so ticked off when people ignorantly lump all the occurrences into the ''improper setup'' box. Especially when we take pains to explain that wasn't it!! Maybe, Rafael, you didn't intend on overtly insulting people but you did. And after having heard the same stupid comment by many people, I got totally fed up with it.
[/

I agree 1000%...like I said, I was like once couldn't tell me nothing bad about JR, but not anymore...i'm not saying any other manufacturer is better or worse i'm just saying if it was me and my improper setup it hasn't happened with another manufacturers product even when i'm using the same crappy batteries....

Kevin

rosek007

[quote]ORIGINAL: rosek007




Well I do believe you have got it, Mr. Morden.
Yes I was being personally insulting to you and your response indicates I was justified in doing so. You don't think you insulted all of us who have experienced these unexplainable crashes when you make the comment about improper setup? I was right in throwing it back in your face because I and several others took the time to detail the circumstances and the setup. YOU didn't seem to have read those posts before you made that inane ''setup'' comment. Obviously most crashes ARE caused by pilot error and improper setup. That's not what this thread is about. It's all about when the setup WAS right and nothing SHOULD have gone wrong, yet it did. So when you jump in here shooting your mouth off about improper setup, you directly insult a lot of people. If you can't see that then it's because you just won't admit it.

I'll give you one thing though. You apparently are capable of cogent thought because your response to rosek007 was fairly good. The only thing I might add is that I really don't think this is a matter of defective units. The situations seems to be that a rx works perfectly for many flights, then locks up once, and then performs perfectly afterward. This seems to me to be an unanticipated failure mode, i.e. a design inadequacy. As both a ham radio operator, electrical engineer, and software developer I can totally see that happening. There may even be more than one hidden failure mode lurking in the background. And as I've pointed out before, I've seen it happen to a 2.4 Futaba system also. Maybe the 2.4 GHz spectrum is too crowded. Maybe something else. But I do believe there is something real here.

You know, it's almost like the UFO business. 90% or more of the sightings are explainable but there's that 10% or so by reliable witnesses that you can't deny. Probably the majority of lock ups can be explained by brownouts or some other setup problem. It's just that percentage of incidents that are outside of those reasons that we're talking about on this thread. That's why I get so ticked off when people ignorantly lump all the occurrences into the ''improper setup'' box. Especially when we take pains to explain that wasn't it!! Maybe, Rafael, you didn't intend on overtly insulting people but you did. And after having heard the same stupid comment by many people, I got totally fed up with it.
[/

I agree 1000%...like I said, I was like him once, couldn't tell me nothing bad about JR, however that was 72mhz and i just can't trust to fly the JR 2.4...i'm not saying any other manufacturer is better or worse i'm just saying if it was me and my improper setup crashing my planes it hasn't happened with another manufacturers product even when i'm using the same crappy batteries and the same retarded installation....

Kevin

rosek007

you guys are getting waaaaaay toooo serious...have a laugh on me...er or rather JR...




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrJxV_q6qPM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R8fS...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o94BwTuKrb4

Just watch them all...hilarious...whomever these guys are they don't get paid enough...
Kevin

Rafael23cc

My Feedback: (6)

I did not think that we were talking radios in this thread, but since you brought it up. I agree with you that the FIRST BATCH of the x9303 radios (2.4 version) had a cable problem (have not heard the same from the 9503), but it was quickly taken care of at the factory and by the service center as soon as it was identified. So what is wrong with that? It conforms with that you are asking, you learn from your mistakes, and produce a better product from there on. It was not ignored, and handled properly and in a timely manner. I see no problem with that.

My father always told me not to purchase the first of ANYTHING. It is prone to have problems that nobody could have foreseen. He always advised me to give it 6 months to a year before purchasing a product. That way most, if not all of the bugs would have been worked out. In this hobby people HAVE TO HAVE the latest and greatest. Maybe that's the problem.

Rafael