Robert,

Honest discussion is what makes these Forums interesting. However the title of this thread and the first post was somewhat accusatory. A phone call at that point would have been the smart thing to do. Instead of the speculation that followed we would have had an explanation.

How many people actually did what I did and made the call? Had they made the free phone call they might have got their money back, like I did! In fact I made a profit on the deal. My can was only 9.6ozs short. I am getting a refund on the whole gallon!

Ed S

Ed,
I think Robert has some valid points, but I also agree that perhaps the title of the thread could have been worded differently. In all fairess none of us were involved in that. I will call tomorrow and speak with Laura. I am in a little bit of a different situation as I do not have measuring equipment. I also bought 7 gallons, six are still sealed and the 7th is the one you see in the photograph. All 7 are from the same batch number and assuming that your figures would hold true in my case that would be 67.2 ounces. I would really just want the fuel, my YS engines are hungry.

Somehow I doubt a single person from Canada calling to complain is going to get the same level of attention as a juicy Online Forum Exposé.

That said, I really hate to see a brand name getting dragged through the mud on the Internet every time somebody carries a grudge - justified or not. This one, however, seems systemic enough to be a genuine problem as folks from Canada down to FL are having the same problem. I wonder how long this "batch" has been like this? I can't imagine PM doesn't use some kind of automatic measurement or filling procedure. Do they eyeball the filling of every can?

Volfy.
As explained by Ed after speaking with them they use automated filling equipment. Anything could happen and this could very well be a just discovered and I am hopefully sure an unintentional error. I will know tomorrow after I call and see what the take is on 7 gallons without having accurate measuring equipment. You can see from my photos what the visual difference is after I added 3 ounces of castor to the fresh gallon can. After shaking the mixture I then transferred to the Wildcat plastic gallon container. Unless you are Superman, wouldn't know how you could eyeball the level through a metal can.

Olstoney,

They may be more available here than in the US because we are supposed to be using the metric system. From Walmart I purchased a 1 litre plastic bottle graduated in millilitres on the side. You could probably get one with fluid ozs marked on the side.

I will be making another bulk purchase in two weeks time. You can rest assured I will measure these.

Ed S

Glad to see that I've been vindicated and special thanks to Olstoney for posting the comparison photos. As to how I've dealt with this problem, I went back to the LHS that sold me the PM fuel and presented my findings. The store owner, a very reputable man who I've bought from for over 20 years, without hesitation insisted that I take a FREE gallon of fuel to make up for the POWERMASTER shortage. Furthermore, he discounted his remaining stock of PM fuel so as to not short future customers. Needless to say, he will continue to get most of my business along with great word of mouth advertising.
And to POWERMASTER(Laura) if you're reading this, I think that you have a great product and salute you for taking action to make things right. I am whole but my LHS is the one who took the hit (and heat!). If you'd like to square things with him, send me a PM for the store's name and number.
Final thought: I will continue to buy POWERMASTER fuel if my LHS continues to carry it.

Power Master 15% 18% oil

Gallon #1 short 7.3846 oz.
#2 short 7.3842 oz.
#3 short 8.5384 oz.
#4 short 12.00 oz.
#5 short 6.4615 oz.
#6 short 6.4615 oz.

Gallon # 4 was measured by volume and with those results the other 5 gallons were calculated by weight.

Power Master has assured me that they have fixed the problem and it was not their intension to short their customers.
Call Power Master with your questions.

A person might ask why PowerMaster didn't discover this problem themselves during "Quality Checking" ... which should check quantity.

Glad they are responding ... they have a good product !

Thats a dang shame! Such a good fuel! You can sugar coat the issue any way you like but people pay for a gallon and they are not getting it...hence customers are getting cheated. Its PM's job to make sure they are pumping the correct amount. If you payed $2.40 for a gallon of gas and got .95 gallons you would yell cheat....so why not for a gallon of 15-20$ fuel?

I called Powermaster this afternoon at 4:10pm. They were closed for the day (7:30am-4pm). I left a message on Laura's voice mail and will let you all know the outcome after i speak with her.

I am glad to hear that others are calling Powermaster. As somebody said earlier, one call from Canada probably will not do much. This may not be over yet. I have just checked three other sealed gallons that I purchased recently, all were short, one as much as 11 fluid ozs. I accept that these could have got "Loose" before the problem was discovered/pointed out.

Ed S

Ed,
I'm sorry to hear that, but this is getting hard to believe. There has to have been a real problem with QC on the filling stations as I can not fathom that this was intentional. My batch number was 3840 and I still have six sealed gallon cans. The question really is how long did this go undetected and how many "short" gallon cans are really out there?

Olstoney,

I have to admit I am beginning to lose faith.

I spent an hour or so gathering some facts and figures. These may help to make it easier to check.

The fuel I use is 15% nitro, 18% total oil.

I weighed a few empty cans, they were all within an ounce of each other at about 14 ozs.

I accurately measured a full gallon by volume. With the can it weighs 8lb 1.2ozs. A second weighed 8lb 0.6ozs. That is close enough for me.

1oz weight of fuel is 1.12 fluid ozs. So for every ounce weight less than say 8lb multiply that figure by 1.12 and the result will be the fluid oz. shortage.

My worst example, a sealed can, weighed 7lb. 6.6ozs. That is 9.4oz wt short x 1.12 = 10.52 fluid ozs. That is unacceptable.

As I said before these may have been shipped before the problem was known about. I intend to purchase some more in a weeks time. I will measure this shipment. I will not let this go.

Ed S

WOW!!! For the sponsor of this forum to get caught up in a mess like this is truly amazing and embarassing. I think we need to thank Mr3Putt for bringing this to light and a public apology from POWERMASTER is in order.

Just a side comment. If Powermaster was using plastic jugs, this problem would have been immediately apparent, and immediately corrected.

O.K. Guys,
I received a call back from Laura at Powermaster just after 3:00pm EDT, she spent every bit of a half an hour on the phone with me. Yes, there was a problem with the automated filling equipment that went undetected through several batches of fuel. The quality of the fuel was never compromised only the amount dispensed. In some cases gallon cans were underfilled, but some cases gallon cans were overfilled as well. Powermaster does know the batch numbers involved. Of course no one would complain if the can was overfilled or start a thread about that, now would they?

Laura assured me that once brought to the attention of Powermaster, the automated filling equipment was re-calibrated and re-tested. Additional safeguards have also been instituted including measuring every gallon dispensed by an employee with a graduated dipstick before the can is sealed. Laura assured me that Powermaster is committed to providing a quality product and first class customer service. I was assured that this type of problem will not happen in the future.

I did not request any refund or compensation, only that I receive enough fuel to compensate for the shortages that I may encounter out of the remaining six gallons that I purchased. Laura offered to ship substantially more fuel than what I could have been shorted in the morning. I offered to pay for the difference in the quantity that is being shipped, Laura refused to accept any payment. I will be contacted via e-mail tomorrow with the UPS tracking number, Laura told me to expect the delivery on Monday.

I am convinced at this point that this incident was indeed unfortunate. Powermaster will stand behind their products. If you had a problem please call Laura and she will take care of it. That being said, if you did not have a problem then IMHO you probably have no right to an opinion. I had a problem, I placed a phone call, I spoke with the manufacturer and the issue is being resolved to my satisfaction and more than what should be required. We all praise good customer service and recommend to others companies that give that to us. If my fuel arrives on Monday or Tuesday then I have nothing more to say about Powermaster other than thank you for the great customer service and for taking care of me[sm=thumbup.gif][sm=thumbup.gif].

I have read this thread with interest. I think it was great that PowerMaster was eventually contacted and allowed to react to the problem. Of most interest to me was the length of time it took to get satisfaction and the strength of loyalty each of you demonstrated during that time period. Many manufacturers would have lost the loyalty of most of their customers during that period of time, especially when those customers were told that some of the cans had more in them than they were supposed to have and that the QC from now on out is to dipstick each and every can.

Marc Jensen
Byron Originals, Inc.

Are gallon fuel cans slightly more than a gallon capacity to allow for expansion of the fuel if it gets warm? Otherwise overfilling a gallon can would make a noticeable puddle on the floor.

Of course they are, wouldn't a one gallon plastic jug do the same thing?

True to their word. I have now received compensation from Powermaster for the fuel shortages in cans of fuel I purchased. I am now satisfied that this issue was dealt with promptly and properly.

Ed S

Not to stir the fuel jug here, but just having read this thread today for the first time it concerns me. I concerns me for several reasons:

1) I've used Powermaster 20/20 for 2 or 3 years now. How much fuel could I have been shorted over that amount of time? I will never know.

2) No accusations here but is the metal can the reason they didn't discover the shortages or the reason they were able to get away with intentionally underfilling. I hope it was the former not the latter but a company could do this for years until a customer finally catches it then just say it is a mistake and compensate just the customers who come forward. If this were the case, they would still be money-ahead after being dishonest.

3) I tend to believe this was just a mistake but then if that is the case, what other mistakes may have been made? Wrong nitro content? Wrong oil content? If a company basically does mixing and packaging of raw materials and they can't get that done accurately, what the heck are they doing right? Just the billing?

#3 is actually my biggest concern and not just with PM but any fuel mfg. Oh well, I guess if you wanna know for sure you gotta mix your own.

I will continue to buy PM fuel but I believe they lost some credibility here.

aviti,
I was assured when I spoke with Laura at PM that the quality of the fuel was never compromised. As I stated earlier she did not have to spend almost a half hour on the phone with me explaining what had occurred and the steps taken to rectify the problems with the automated filler. The original thread starter and Ed Smith have both been taken care of. I will know in a day or two if that brown truck shows up here if PM has taken care of me. I sincerely believe that this was not intentional. How long this could have been going on without someone knowing about it is another question. Like I and some others have stated this never would have happened and could be solved by using plastic gallon jugs where the level could be quickly compared. I always used to use Wildcat 15%-18% Super Premium in my two strokes. When I started going to four strokes including my YS Engines I switched to PM YS 20/20. I had to transfer to a plastic gallon jug as my fuel pump cap will not fit the PM metal can. That is when I started noticing the descrepancies in the volume. PM knows the batch numbers involved and my seven gallons were in the questionable batch number. The first gallon was 6 oz short after the addition of 3oz of castor. The other six will be adjusted as needed to keep the additional castor ratio correct. Laura just requested that if you have a problem call and PM will take care of it.

Have just read this thread. IMHO, it demonstrates the need to go to the manufacturer (in this case PM) FIRST to bring the problem to their attention. Once they've had a chance to correct and compensate, THEN "go public" with the whole story and thus avoid all the veiled questions about the manufacturer's integrity.

Face it, guys, mistakes happen. Equipment malfunctions. Most manufacturers appreciate when someone points out to them an undiscoverd problem, and gives them time to correct it. So far as I know, only one perfect man ever walked this earth, and he sure was strong on giving others a second chance.

Things happen. I run Sig fuel, even though it is not available locally (I live a few miles from Powermaster). I run Sig because that is what I am used to. A friend, whose veracity I do not doubt, told me had a case of bad Sig fuel, which Sig replaced. So, as said, things happen.

There has been much speculation on the recent shortage of fuel in the metal cans. Yes, there was a problem with the fill timing device that shorted cans of fuel as well as causing overfill on some cans. We at Powermaster pride ourselves on making only high quality fuel, with each customer being 100% satisfied. Unfortunately, until we were notified by a moderator from RCU regarding the posts speculating on deceptive business practices, we were not aware of the shortages. We agree that it is difficult to visually check levels of fuel in metal cans; however, despite the higher cost of packaging in metal, we feel we are following the guidelines set forth by the Uniform Fire Code. In response to the recent shortage issue, we have changed our quality control regulations to include inspecting and testing the timing devices prior to each run of a batch of fuel. This is the same policy we have always had in place for testing of raw materials prior to blending. All customers that have contacted Powermaster with the issue of shortage have been compensated for the shortage without question. As I said, we stand behind our fuel 100%. Any customer that feels they have been shorted, please contact me at 1-800-847-9086 ext 2#, or e-mail at [email protected] for assistance. If you are forwarded to my voice mail please leave your name and number and I will return your call. We look forward to a satisfactory resolution to this inconvenience for our loyal customers.
Best regards,
Laura Hammond
Vice President
Powermaster Fuels