not necessarily. you still have to put the 3 pos ECU calibration switch on a failsafe capable channel. may not be a problem for most but there are a few out there that are going to have to do some creative programming to move our 3 pos switch to channel 6-8 , Aux 1-3.

or we could just shell out the $$ for a new ECU and reap the benefits of its programming capability. remember the Old ECU EPROM is roughly 10 years old. pretty cool its lasted this long.

Duane / Dwayne?? any luck moving the switches on the JR Tx??

L8R

buck

ditto to what Randy M said

For the two cut off valves: One may be manual - Ball Valve. For the second you may use your engine cut switch on your transmitter. If you have manual trim on throttle that will work. If you have electronic trims you will have to use a cut switch.

I use the left slider on my JR10sx. It is set to go to idle right now, but when my ecu gets back, I don't think I will have to change anything. The ECU will do it for me. Am I thinking right here?

yeah bro'

if you're using the left slider to get your 3 beeps you'll be fine. once the new ECU is reprogrammed set your failsafe to the off position ( low tone position ). the new program will give you the two second delay if you get a hit for that long.

my guess is you'll know you're getting hit before the engine shuts down anyway

L8R

buck

Sound good to me, Buck!!

Buck, I open the transmitter it would be a headache to convert switches. So I will leave it on Ch8 or aux3, but you must set your failsafe to go to middle position not low. If you go low your ECU will shut off instantly, AMT reprogram the normal shut down time to 2sec instead of 6sec. Check it out you should see what I'm talking about.

Blinky

thanks for the heads up. set to middle position for failsafe. got it.

take care

buck

To clarify...yeah, it is the 'mid' switch position that must be the the FS pre-programmed position.....easiest is to use a slider or rotary to get the required 15-30%, hear the slow beeps and you've got the delay. But a rotary/slider may be a different/undesired location change for many of us....e.g., I wanna use the same position and the ease of a switch (see below). And, we do lose the 7-second preprogrammed cool shutdown...but that is of little consequence, I think, as by now, all of us w/ engines using the old ECU know the approximate cool shutdown RPM by ear. Just nudge the thottle a tad for 7-10 seconds before cutting the engine w/ the instant shutdown position.

Testing your FS by shutting the Tx off will immediately indicate the 'mid' position beeps, and on the EDT, indicates a center switch position...but w/o any noticable added ECU delay. So, the way to truly know you have the added delay you requested is w/ the engine running....now when the Tx is shut off, you have the ECU-added delay for FS before engine kill.

As Bruce explained earlier, the FS position for these updated old ECUs is not actually 'mid'. It has to be 15-30%. So, if you've a FS-programmable three position switch you wanna use....well then....you gotta P-mix it (w/Futaba, anyway) to get other than a default 50% at mid. Futaba says this is 'easy' (we'll see !).....I've talked w/ Dave at Hobbico Futaba Support and he will spoon feed me as to how to accomplish this on Futaba 8s and 9Cs.....which I will pass on here.

Ray

Anyone got a ball-park figure for what the ECU upgrade costs ? I've got a 3+ year old AMT280 sitting around somewhere...

So Ray

All this sounds fine assuming one is using a PCM capable failsafe receiver/transmitter combo . As I have read the rules, no where does it state that a PCM setup is a requirement, so now if someone is actually using a PPM setup, is this not what the newer rules are trying to address by putting the failsafe feature requirements as part of an ECU requirement.

No where in your explanations do I see this addressed and how it relates, Only how to setup a PCM enviroment to meet the rules, can you please explain the folowing scenarios for me?

Can you tell me what an AMT older ECU will do if being used with a PPM setup to satisfy AMA 2005 rules?

Can you tell me what an AMT newer ECU will do if being used with a PPM setup to satisfy AMA 2005 rules?

Hey, don't shoot the messenger....

Background: Last year, the AMA required all turbine pilots to FS-program their radios so that in event of link-loss, engines went to idle. For '05, engines must be killed within two seconds of a FS initiation. Should the link be re-acquired within that two second period, engines would not die if we could take advantage of this full delay....one available only if ECUs added some time to any radio hold period (Futaba has about a second hold before FS, JR less).

So, FS has been required for a year (where ya been?!); but now it's engine kill, which can be easily tested at events. All agree (or should!) that flying high-speed models w/o FS is nuts....ya wanna go into a hold or gentle pre-program mode, rather than have the wild gyrations PPM permits; and ya wanna have the engine killed at some point (the two seconds may be debatable....) to prevent a runaway and to preclude fires upon impact.

Bottom line: For good reason, a link-loss must kill the engine within two seconds....now if you can do that w/o FS and or PCM...then go ahead; OK w/ the AMA, I'm sure. Typical PPM, however, has been obsolete for flying turbines for over a year, though there may be other PPM methods (IPD, someone above mentioned a add-on device, etc.). Further, there may be other ECUs that somehow recognize inconsistant PPM Rx info, and can be programmed to kill the engine in that event. I dunno....I'm just an AMTUSA rep....

To your point: AMT ECUs- old or new- need FS (therefore PCM) to initiate an ECU engine kill...whatever the added delay. And, c'mon, you should be flying PCM for the other safety concerns alone!

Incidentally, folks, no need to have ECUs updated at all.....i.e., if you are satisfied w/ no delay (or just the built-in radio hold delay). That's what we've had all along. But w/ the '05 kill requirement, the full two-seconds makes sense for glitch protection....otherwise you FO w/ the least loss/interference...which you'd otherwise never even notice.

Ray

Not trying to shoot the messenger just concerned with misinformation...

Well thanx for clearing that up for me, I guess?? I stand corrected, I do fly PCM and I even flew the turbine demo for the AMA GRAND EVENT last year in front of Carl and Joyce getting a favorable write up on the event by Carl..

I guess I will have to figure out when/where AMA had dictated the exclusive use of PCM control for turbine powered aircraft. Guess I missed it. Surface models have always had a gizmo for throttle failsafe use programming with standard PPM control. Futaba sells one and list it as not for aircraft use. I still believe it makes more sense for a turbine ECU to be the brains of failsafe shutdown versus user programability

The same frequency module that works either a PPM receiver to an ECU is the same one that works with a PCM receiver to an ECU. SO I been in this long enough to know your not less prone to interferance only a preprogrammable crash mode!!!

It's the high speed glitch with extreme heading changes and loss of LOTS of altitude I preffer to mask out.

Here is another view... Not many people here have any experence of running out of range
with their planes... I have a RC car with a TV camera that I drive all over the hood and run out
of range all the time... In PCM mode if just holds and I run into a tree.. In PPM mode it slowly
gets gittery and I loose some % of control.. Sometimes I loose %20 somtimes I loose %80...
But I am still able to drive the car. IPD acts just like PPM but goes much further down the street...

In my Isobar with an old AMT I run PPM and if the ECU does not get good frames for some
time (not sure) the ECU shuts off the Engine... This has happen to me
years ago where I taxied over 100m down the runway and the engine quit... It EDT
said Switch failer witch means it ran out of range...
If I turn the transmitter off while the engine is running the engine quits very quickly...

Just because PCM has less errors and is the newest thing does not mean its better for
flying jets.. I would rather see 5 bumps or hits than one lockout.. There is nothing wrong
with a plane going crazy in the air because at least you know its the radio and you can still
kill the engine because it only takes a few good frames getting through..

With PPM I get bumps far more often than PCM but at least I know about it and either
land or go home.. I am not saying PPM is better... Its just what I perfer

Eddie Weeks

The idea that at least one valid frame will get through seems like a very bad assumption. Depending on the nature of the interference source you may get patchy interference (in which case you get lucky) or you may get totally swamped (as I was when I got shot down many years ago by an illegal CB setup that was blasting out enormous amounts of energy on my channel - no chance of my teeny little TX signal getting through all of that).

Ray,
I just recieved two of the latest (version 3.61) ECU's today from AMT and I am a little unclear on how to set up the failsafe. The instructions haven't caught up with the product yet and I would prefer not to "trial and error" anymore than I have to. My radio is a JR 10X.

Thanks,

Craig

No word from the AMA yet re a definitive answer as to a second fuel cut-off (para 8 in 510-A). Shameful that they can't interpret their own prose...and they think WE can understand it?! But, as I said earlier, no worries...the ECU pump shut-down is sufficient for the remote requirement in '05. I talked w/ CM and Illona...told 'em to just ask me !

For old ECUs, Futaba has come back w/ a P-mix procedure we are trying....this so that a three-position switch can be used to get the necessary 30% set point. Have to have that in order to utilize the added ECU delay in FS; easy if you use a slider or knob instead for engine control.

With a new AMT ECU, just set the FS channel to throttle, make the throttle trim center position the set point (around 30% should do it).

FS set w/ Old or new ECU: With engine in run position, turn the Tx off and you'll immediately hear the slow beeps/see the EDT switch poition go to center. There's no apparent delay added to your radio 'hold' in doing this......until ya have the engine actually running.....then the added ECU delay takes effect.

Ray

Old ECU potential programming for non-failsafe selectable 3 pos switch location.

Here's what I've come up with so far and will get you started for your particular situation.

ex. Kingcat w/Crow braking capability

dilemma Crow braking and brakes consume Aux 1,2,3 (all available 3 pos switches/sliders that are failsafe selectable)

how do I incorporate Aux 4/5 (only remaining 3 pos switch)

keep the smooth stop on Aux 3 (rt slider) but activate it with the snap roll button. (re: Jeteyez post)
mix Aux 3 - Aux 3 Pos 0 -20% (top) -20% (bottom) Pos 1 +100% (top) +100% (bottom)activate via Snap Roll button

your brakes still function via the slider but once the engine is in the run position, you have to utilize the snap roll button to activate your brakes otherwise you run the risk of inadvertently shutting down the engine.

keep the 3 pos switch on Aux 4/5 (deactivate the rotary knob via function 17 on JR radio)
mix Aux 3 - Aux 4/5 Pos 0 +150% (top) +150% (bottom) move the slider up and down to change number selections. listen for the low rate beeping tones and adjust %'s accordingly.

the above programming will require you to give up proportional brakes and may be awkward for thumb and forefinger guys. I guess you'll have to reach up with your left middle finger to activate your snap roll switch. In addition, smoke will have to be moved to Aux 5 (for example) and will likely have to be activated with the mix switch or some other Pmix derivative.

good luck

Buck

ok guys, tell me if i have done this correct. i have the old amt ecu (merc sp) and a jr 10x. i have throttle and aux 2 (3 position switch) both set on failsafe. i fired up the turbine and let it run a minute or so and than turned the transmitter off. the turbine immediately, less than a second, shut down. seems to meet ama regs, but is the too fast? seems the slightest glitch and the turbine will be off. however, i cant recall a hit ever on my 10x. any input is welcome. thanks in advance, barry

u2fast-

Well...that is what's expected w/ a JR radio (no noticable 'hold' delay before FS) and an older ECU that has not been updated for the FS delay. If not updated yet, ya gotta send it to Williamstown and ask for two seconds delay; Bruce will re-EPROM it (maybe $50). If just updated, then you are not setting/calibrating it correctly in the switch channel (and getting the slow beep), or not enabling FS correctly/whatever.

Firstly, has it been updated just recently for the FS delay?

Ray

Ok guys...for Futaba 8 and 9C using updated old ECUs.....here's how to retain the 3-position switch for the ECU switch channel. No need to go to a slider or rotary to get those three beeps, nor change that familiar emergency shut-down switch position. This works, both Bruce and I confirmed it this weekend, your number settings may vary ......

1. Set your ECU switch channel ATVs for about max. I use channel 6, which default is the 'G' switch, upper left, on the 9C. My ATVs are plus 129 (when switch is down) and plus 102 when up. (Center position has no ATV set...it is centered between the ATV extremes). You can insert a servo and 'see' it happen if you want.

2. Go now to your P-mix menu, pick one not already used. Set P-mix >ON, MAS >OFFSET, SLV >FLP (flap is default for CH6), LINK >OFF, SW >G, POSI >NULL, RATE > -39 gets the three beeps (it's 39% of the way up from low...again you may vary).

3. Now go to your FS menu, scroll to CH6 and put the 'G' switch in the center position, select FS (not NORM), then enable FS (push/hold the selector wheel/button for the 9C, hold the plus and minus keys down simultaneously on the 8). You'll see the percentage change to be around 47 (for mine, anyway).

To demonstrate this, turn on your ECU (hooked up to your engine), you'll find 'G' switch up is the run position (high beep, EDT switch icon up); the bottom/down 'G' position is low beep, EDT switch down. Go to mid 'G' and you'll hear the series of low beeps...and the EDT switch icon will go/stay down. Back in run position, shut the Tx off, you'll hear low beeps and see EDT switch icon go low after the Tx-off delay, proving FS function. Acid test: Turn the Tx off w/ the engine actually running (at any throttle setting). It will go to idle after the Tx hold delay, and stay at idle an additional ECU delay of a second, then shut-down. If yer real quick(!)....shut the Tx off, then right back on....the engine will go to idle momentarily, but return to the throttle setting w/ reacquisition of signal.

Ray

ray, no, i stated this is the old ecu. my question, with the no 2 second delay, of course i get an instant shut down, do you think this will be ok? it is quicker than 2 seconds. or do you think i might get regular shutdowns when flying because it is instant. i dont mind it being instant untill i can send it to amt for the upgrade. i am interested in hearing opinions of wether or not i would see a shut down problem. thx barry

u2fast-

I partially misunderstood your original question....

I dunno, but from what I've heard over the years- and ocassionally seen myself- we do have gliches (momentary loss of signal link) for a variety of reasons, with almost immediate re-acquisition. So, the idea of delaying a FS link-loss engine shutdown is, of course, to keep the engine running through these glitches; and w/ PCM you might never notice them if surfaces are not preprogrammed other than 'hold'. Seems obvious: If you don't have a significant loss of control, why have your engine off?! We gotta have FS shut-down in '05, and with JR, e.g., there is no Tx delay/hold, so you'd have an instant engine shut-down w/ even a momentary link-loss. Futaba, you get a second's grace because of the Tx hold; maybe ride over that glitch. Only way to get more- up to the two seconds allowed- is by adding an ECU delay.

The two seconds is arbitrary- perhaps it should be three or even one second- it's really a philosophical question. But the intention/effect is to have the flame out within a reasonable period w/ a sustained link loss that would cause a crash; engine off prevents runaways and fires.

Bottom line: I'd want the full two seconds, figuring the plane likely will not be crashing before then, but almost certainly will after some longer period of continuous loss. Depends on your viewpoint...maybe w/ Futaba some won't bother to go to the trouble of updating the AMT ECU. Almost a personal thing.

Ray Davis
AMTUSA Field Rep

Well...the 'definitive' answer to the earlier confusion re remote fuel cut-offs (is a second one needed, as implied w/ the solenoid wording?), is that simply put, "No. The ECU pump cut-off suffices."

Of course, that's the answer we should have received immediately upon first enquiry, but Para 8 musta confused the hell outa them, too! Finally, Don Lowe said the solenoid cut-off was, "ONLY ONE ALTERNATIVE". And, that's actually as close as I got....! The old wording said it all, "Two methods of shutting the engine off must be included. One of which must be operable by the pilot in flight".

Ray

Thanks Ray for clearing this up for the rest of us.

Craig

OK,here goes. I want to know WHY if you have the older AMT ecu you have to have a 2 second delay verses 0 delay?? The old system is as close to an instatanious shutdown as you could get. We have always delt with this fact( if there is a problem, your flamming) thing is flying PCM JR, I have only had 1 flameout I couldnt answer for in over 1000+ flights. Am I confused or if I am prepared to accept instant to 2 seconds is it ok with AMA to operate as I always have or do you still have to do a 2 second delay????? Ray Blair