Sealing hinge gaps
03-23-2005 | 09:00 AM
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From: Hastings, NE
Sealing hinge gaps
I believe that most pattern guys seal hinge gaps, so I am asking this question here. I am trying to seal the hinge gaps on a pattern plane. I used Robart hinge points. I did one aileron last night. The aileron was very free before sealing the gap and now it moves like it is in cold molasses. I sealed the bottom of the aileron. I cut strips of monokote to go between the hinges and moved the aileron all the way down (up really). I then ironed the monokote in as far down into the gap as it would go. The servo seems to move the aileron just fine with no chatter on either side, however, the aileron is very stiff. Where did I go wrong?? Thanks.
03-23-2005 | 09:23 AM
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From: Tuckerman, AR
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
I do mine the same way except I cover top and bottom on all the hinge lines. I'ts probably just the stiffness of the extra covering. Mine do the same thing when I'm done I'll work the control surface back and forth a little and it will loosen up. You shouldn't have anything to worry about it will loosen up over time.
03-23-2005 | 09:34 AM
#3
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RE: Sealing hinge gaps
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
03-23-2005 | 01:30 PM
#4
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RE: Sealing hinge gaps
JVB, next time consider using clear iron on film intended for park flyers. It is a little thinner and a bit more flexible. I use some mylar material that is 50% thinner than ultrakote, and its adhesive is activated at about 150 degrees. Will not harm painted surfaces, that why I use this stuff. Model Research labs shows it but other materials are equivalent.
To get the very best actuation with practically zero drag, do the following. Cut your strips and then crease them down the long axis. run the crease over a corner like your bench top, to set the crease in place and assure a straight line. Remove the backing, insert into the hinge gap, and hold it with a thin ruler (the steel blade variety works super). Then activate the adhesive with your edge trim tool, one side at a time. The ruller will automatically move the surface to max throw and will make the cease settle into near center. Try it works great
MattK
To get the very best actuation with practically zero drag, do the following. Cut your strips and then crease them down the long axis. run the crease over a corner like your bench top, to set the crease in place and assure a straight line. Remove the backing, insert into the hinge gap, and hold it with a thin ruler (the steel blade variety works super). Then activate the adhesive with your edge trim tool, one side at a time. The ruller will automatically move the surface to max throw and will make the cease settle into near center. Try it works great
MattK
ORIGINAL: JVB
I believe that most pattern guys seal hinge gaps, so I am asking this question here. I am trying to seal the hinge gaps on a pattern plane. I used Robart hinge points. I did one aileron last night. The aileron was very free before sealing the gap and now it moves like it is in cold molasses. I sealed the bottom of the aileron. I cut strips of monokote to go between the hinges and moved the aileron all the way down (up really). I then ironed the monokote in as far down into the gap as it would go. The servo seems to move the aileron just fine with no chatter on either side, however, the aileron is very stiff. Where did I go wrong?? Thanks.
I believe that most pattern guys seal hinge gaps, so I am asking this question here. I am trying to seal the hinge gaps on a pattern plane. I used Robart hinge points. I did one aileron last night. The aileron was very free before sealing the gap and now it moves like it is in cold molasses. I sealed the bottom of the aileron. I cut strips of monokote to go between the hinges and moved the aileron all the way down (up really). I then ironed the monokote in as far down into the gap as it would go. The servo seems to move the aileron just fine with no chatter on either side, however, the aileron is very stiff. Where did I go wrong?? Thanks.
03-23-2005 | 03:47 PM
#5
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote
Even the faintest gap lets air flow through.......which over time could cause flutter or worse seperation. I seal every hinge.......its easy and cheap to do.
I used 3M tape (Dubro is now selling it) to seal my hinges. Its really flexable and can be re-applied until you really smooth it out.
03-23-2005 | 05:07 PM
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From: Tracy,
CA
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
I think I gotta agree with sweetpea also.
I mean we're talking about a little money and a little work for our very expensive planes here.. It's so easy to do why wouldn't you. I don't know, but I dont want zero gap. Ever. That is where servo strain comes into play. I'm not trying to put any more resistance on my servo's than I have to.
8178, maybe that zero gap works on a kwik fly with an 1/8 balsa stab for that builder, but I don't think I'll transfer his build tactics to my 2 meter ships. I'm not going to give any of my planes a reason to flutter. I seal all gaps on all planes. It's easy and I have never once had flutter in any plane since I started sealing the gaps.
My .02
c ya
I mean we're talking about a little money and a little work for our very expensive planes here.. It's so easy to do why wouldn't you. I don't know, but I dont want zero gap. Ever. That is where servo strain comes into play. I'm not trying to put any more resistance on my servo's than I have to.
8178, maybe that zero gap works on a kwik fly with an 1/8 balsa stab for that builder, but I don't think I'll transfer his build tactics to my 2 meter ships. I'm not going to give any of my planes a reason to flutter. I seal all gaps on all planes. It's easy and I have never once had flutter in any plane since I started sealing the gaps.
My .02
c ya
03-23-2005 | 05:42 PM
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From: Agawam,
MA
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
This method is probably more complicated than it needs to be but here goes.
I use “Super Clear†Scotch packaging tape (because I already had it!) But working with this tape is kind of like working with contact cement…you get one shot at applying it.
So I use a six inch putty knife to position the tape. I do this by folding a piece of “Super Clear†lengthwise over the end of the putty knife and taping it down with regular masking tape. The “Super Clear†is sticky side out.
Deflect the aileron and carefully position the putty knife onto the hinges, then close up the aileron. Remove the masking tape from the putty knife and trim the “Super Clearâ€
It generally takes four pieces to seal the aileron. The tape is absolutely invisible, permanent and if installed right to the hinges, offers no resistance.
I use “Super Clear†Scotch packaging tape (because I already had it!) But working with this tape is kind of like working with contact cement…you get one shot at applying it.
So I use a six inch putty knife to position the tape. I do this by folding a piece of “Super Clear†lengthwise over the end of the putty knife and taping it down with regular masking tape. The “Super Clear†is sticky side out.
Deflect the aileron and carefully position the putty knife onto the hinges, then close up the aileron. Remove the masking tape from the putty knife and trim the “Super Clearâ€
It generally takes four pieces to seal the aileron. The tape is absolutely invisible, permanent and if installed right to the hinges, offers no resistance.
03-23-2005 | 07:27 PM
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From: Hastings, NE
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
Thanks for the replies. MTK, I did it exactly as you said. I used Robart hinges, so I cut my pieces to fit between them. Otherwise I can't get them to the center of the control surface or trailing edge. If you install your Robart hinges with the rounded hinge portion flush with the aileron, when moving up and down, the bevel on the aileron leading edge will go up and down with aileron movement. It doesn't stay exactly centered. I think that is why I have added resistance with the sealing strips. I do believe they will loosen up with use. I flexed them by hand several times and they move easier now. I more flexible covering material or tape would help also.
03-23-2005 | 07:30 PM
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From: San Jose, CA
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
I have a totally different way to use. Instead of tape, before you slide the surfaces on the hinges to the plane, put a very thin bead of clear silicone (aquarium glue) on the point of the "V." If using CA hinges, glue them now -- don't put the silicone glue on the CA or other hinges. Then once installed make a tool out of a popsicle stick by shaping one end into a point. Use this to smooth out the silicone glue and get rid of excess. This makes an invisible seal. I have used this on 2-meter pattern planes and my Formosa electric. If done right it is tight, easy to do, flexible, and light.
Don
Don
03-23-2005 | 09:34 PM
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From: Tracy,
CA
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
The only problem I have found with sticky tapes are that you have to do both sides. Otherwise you get and dirt or debris sticking to the tape.
I have never heard of the silicone trick. Can't say I'll use it but who knows. Here's a little trick when working with 100 percent silicones that maybe you may already know. I do alot of bathroom remodels which involves caulking in tub and shower surrounds and doors.. When I caulk in a set of shower doors to the wall I apply the bead of caulk then take my spray bottle with denatured alcohol and spray along the length of the bead. Then I finger the caulk. What this does is the silicone is going to stick to whatever you applied it to naturally, but it will not stick to anywhere that there is denatured alcohol. Maybe you may want to test it on your coverings first but it may help with any excess...
Chris
I have never heard of the silicone trick. Can't say I'll use it but who knows. Here's a little trick when working with 100 percent silicones that maybe you may already know. I do alot of bathroom remodels which involves caulking in tub and shower surrounds and doors.. When I caulk in a set of shower doors to the wall I apply the bead of caulk then take my spray bottle with denatured alcohol and spray along the length of the bead. Then I finger the caulk. What this does is the silicone is going to stick to whatever you applied it to naturally, but it will not stick to anywhere that there is denatured alcohol. Maybe you may want to test it on your coverings first but it may help with any excess...
Chris
03-24-2005 | 03:57 AM
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From: Lubbock, TX
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
The method that works for me is a little different.
I glue the ail/Elev with Robart hinge points first. Then cover the bottom of the wing/elev creating your hinge gap seal as covering the first time. Takes a little more patience and practice but have never had problems with it. The design does skew just a little as the different colors are placed into the hinge gap but no one has noticed. Have done this with all sorts of planes including 40%, Pattern Sport, trainer etc etc.
Ed
I glue the ail/Elev with Robart hinge points first. Then cover the bottom of the wing/elev creating your hinge gap seal as covering the first time. Takes a little more patience and practice but have never had problems with it. The design does skew just a little as the different colors are placed into the hinge gap but no one has noticed. Have done this with all sorts of planes including 40%, Pattern Sport, trainer etc etc.
Ed
03-24-2005 | 06:37 AM
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From: Haifa, ISRAEL
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
What I do is make sure there is NO hinge gap when gluing the alilerons\elevator\rudder to the stabilizers. after that I cover the hinge line with same base covering as the wings or stabs are already coverd with. By doing this there is no way to see the hinge line at all. on my Wideboy I actually coverd the wing and ailerons with one piece of covering (the hinges are on the top of the wing). there covering doesn't interfere with the movment.
03-24-2005 | 10:34 PM
#14
Senior Member
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
Patterflyer, the sticky tape idea is old, tried and true. Too control the stickiness try some talcum powder in the hinge gap after application
JBV the method I described will not work as well with thick hinges like Robarts. Works great on Radio Souths, or other plastic film types and Kevlar types. I've tried the silicone rubber type of seal and returned to the method I described. It woks best for me
MattK
JBV the method I described will not work as well with thick hinges like Robarts. Works great on Radio Souths, or other plastic film types and Kevlar types. I've tried the silicone rubber type of seal and returned to the method I described. It woks best for me
MattK
ORIGINAL: patternflyer1
The only problem I have found with sticky tapes are that you have to do both sides. Otherwise you get and dirt or debris sticking to the tape.
I have never heard of the silicone trick. Can't say I'll use it but who knows. Here's a little trick when working with 100 percent silicones that maybe you may already know. I do alot of bathroom remodels which involves caulking in tub and shower surrounds and doors.. When I caulk in a set of shower doors to the wall I apply the bead of caulk then take my spray bottle with denatured alcohol and spray along the length of the bead. Then I finger the caulk. What this does is the silicone is going to stick to whatever you applied it to naturally, but it will not stick to anywhere that there is denatured alcohol. Maybe you may want to test it on your coverings first but it may help with any excess...
Chris
The only problem I have found with sticky tapes are that you have to do both sides. Otherwise you get and dirt or debris sticking to the tape.
I have never heard of the silicone trick. Can't say I'll use it but who knows. Here's a little trick when working with 100 percent silicones that maybe you may already know. I do alot of bathroom remodels which involves caulking in tub and shower surrounds and doors.. When I caulk in a set of shower doors to the wall I apply the bead of caulk then take my spray bottle with denatured alcohol and spray along the length of the bead. Then I finger the caulk. What this does is the silicone is going to stick to whatever you applied it to naturally, but it will not stick to anywhere that there is denatured alcohol. Maybe you may want to test it on your coverings first but it may help with any excess...
Chris
03-25-2005 | 08:53 AM
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From: Hastings, NE
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
After more observation, I now see why the hinge sealing is causing me problems. I installed the Robarts with the hinge knuckle flush with the leading edge of the aileron. This places the actual pivot point behind the leading edge of the aileron. As the aileron moves, the leading edge moves up and down quite a bit. If the covering seal is tacked down all the way, it has to stretch or be pulled up a little to allow movement. It would cause the same problem if tape were being used. I tried a little strip and attached one side completely and only tacked the edge of the other side. This allows it to move with the aileron. Doesn't look quite as nice, but should be functional. Thanks again for all of the replies and ideas.
03-05-2012 | 04:59 PM
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RE: Sealing hinge gaps
I'm reviving this thread - Like above, I am trying to seal hinge gaps with robart hinges. Truthfully, I didn't do the best job with the hinges as it was my first time ever using them (I think I've FINALLY LEARNED my lesson and am done experimenting on my contest planes). Anyway, I am looking for some advice on how to cover up, uh I mean seal, an ugly Robart hinge gap.
I guess I left my phone downstairs, so maybe I'll post a pic tomorrow.
I guess I left my phone downstairs, so maybe I'll post a pic tomorrow.
ORIGINAL: JVB
After more observation, I now see why the hinge sealing is causing me problems. I installed the Robarts with the hinge knuckle flush with the leading edge of the aileron. This places the actual pivot point behind the leading edge of the aileron. As the aileron moves, the leading edge moves up and down quite a bit. If the covering seal is tacked down all the way, it has to stretch or be pulled up a little to allow movement. It would cause the same problem if tape were being used. I tried a little strip and attached one side completely and only tacked the edge of the other side. This allows it to move with the aileron. Doesn't look quite as nice, but should be functional. Thanks again for all of the replies and ideas.
After more observation, I now see why the hinge sealing is causing me problems. I installed the Robarts with the hinge knuckle flush with the leading edge of the aileron. This places the actual pivot point behind the leading edge of the aileron. As the aileron moves, the leading edge moves up and down quite a bit. If the covering seal is tacked down all the way, it has to stretch or be pulled up a little to allow movement. It would cause the same problem if tape were being used. I tried a little strip and attached one side completely and only tacked the edge of the other side. This allows it to move with the aileron. Doesn't look quite as nice, but should be functional. Thanks again for all of the replies and ideas.
03-07-2012 | 08:56 AM
#18
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RE: Sealing hinge gaps
Here is what I am up against. I guess it doesn't look that bad, but it does bother me. I also noticed, after your comment, that the barbs on the Robart hinges are completely through the thin piece of wood at the LE of the stab. So, I've got CA hinges that broke, and you can see I have 3 robart hinges PLUS a few misses in one of the stabs. What a mess, and of course the Rudder looks just as bad [&o]
At this point, I'm thinking about a 2M plane, probably when the Osiris becomes available. I was thinking I should try not to throw too much more money into this airplane, and thus have been putting off buying a new set of tail feathers ($70). Unfortunatly I used a nice set of Atx servos in the stab which are very small, and needed a mounting plate to fit right. Of course I didn't do the best job there, either. As a result, when I consider a new set of tail feathers, I also think about a new set of servos that actually fit. Total cost is about $200. Not sure how much any of this really affects my flying - any low score I get is due to pilot error, no idea how much this would affect the flying capabilities of the plane, or even if I'd notice it. I've got 2 contests at Intermediate under my belt, and was very happy with about 3 rounds of the second contest.
Or I could put more effort into repairing and setup, and gain some more experience with that and trimming. Not sure where I'd put new (CA) hinges - probably have to put them right on the inside edge of the stab/elevator.
At this point, I'm thinking about a 2M plane, probably when the Osiris becomes available. I was thinking I should try not to throw too much more money into this airplane, and thus have been putting off buying a new set of tail feathers ($70). Unfortunatly I used a nice set of Atx servos in the stab which are very small, and needed a mounting plate to fit right. Of course I didn't do the best job there, either. As a result, when I consider a new set of tail feathers, I also think about a new set of servos that actually fit. Total cost is about $200. Not sure how much any of this really affects my flying - any low score I get is due to pilot error, no idea how much this would affect the flying capabilities of the plane, or even if I'd notice it. I've got 2 contests at Intermediate under my belt, and was very happy with about 3 rounds of the second contest.
Or I could put more effort into repairing and setup, and gain some more experience with that and trimming. Not sure where I'd put new (CA) hinges - probably have to put them right on the inside edge of the stab/elevator.
03-07-2012 | 09:42 AM
#19
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RE: Sealing hinge gaps
Use 3M Blenderm tape if your single goal is to seal the gap for aerodynamic benefits. It's available at your local drug store. Also Du-Bro offers it so it may be at you local hobby shop as well. The tape sticks extremely well plus has stretch/flexible like properties.
If the above plus cosmetic cover-up is your goal use iron on Monokote or Coverite cut to size folded in V shape to fit the hinge groove then apply iron heat to seal the edges. A trim iron works great for this task allowing you to iron down inside the hinge groove.
If the above plus cosmetic cover-up is your goal use iron on Monokote or Coverite cut to size folded in V shape to fit the hinge groove then apply iron heat to seal the edges. A trim iron works great for this task allowing you to iron down inside the hinge groove.
03-07-2012 | 09:46 AM
#20
Senior Member
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
ORIGINAL: gaRCfield
Here is what I am up against. I guess it doesn't look that bad, but it does bother me. I also noticed, after your comment, that the barbs on the Robart hinges are completely through the thin piece of wood at the LE of the stab. So, I've got CA hinges that broke, and you can see I have 3 robart hinges PLUS a few misses in one of the stabs. What a mess, and of course the Rudder looks just as bad [&o]
At this point, I'm thinking about a 2M plane, probably when the Osiris becomes available. I was thinking I should try not to throw too much more money into this airplane, and thus have been putting off buying a new set of tail feathers ($70). Unfortunatly I used a nice set of Atx servos in the stab which are very small, and needed a mounting plate to fit right. Of course I didn't do the best job there, either. As a result, when I consider a new set of tail feathers, I also think about a new set of servos that actually fit. Total cost is about $200. Not sure how much any of this really affects my flying - any low score I get is due to pilot error, no idea how much this would affect the flying capabilities of the plane, or even if I'd notice it. I've got 2 contests at Intermediate under my belt, and was very happy with about 3 rounds of the second contest.
Or I could put more effort into repairing and setup, and gain some more experience with that and trimming. Not sure where I'd put new (CA) hinges - probably have to put them right on the inside edge of the stab/elevator.
Here is what I am up against. I guess it doesn't look that bad, but it does bother me. I also noticed, after your comment, that the barbs on the Robart hinges are completely through the thin piece of wood at the LE of the stab. So, I've got CA hinges that broke, and you can see I have 3 robart hinges PLUS a few misses in one of the stabs. What a mess, and of course the Rudder looks just as bad [&o]
At this point, I'm thinking about a 2M plane, probably when the Osiris becomes available. I was thinking I should try not to throw too much more money into this airplane, and thus have been putting off buying a new set of tail feathers ($70). Unfortunatly I used a nice set of Atx servos in the stab which are very small, and needed a mounting plate to fit right. Of course I didn't do the best job there, either. As a result, when I consider a new set of tail feathers, I also think about a new set of servos that actually fit. Total cost is about $200. Not sure how much any of this really affects my flying - any low score I get is due to pilot error, no idea how much this would affect the flying capabilities of the plane, or even if I'd notice it. I've got 2 contests at Intermediate under my belt, and was very happy with about 3 rounds of the second contest.
Or I could put more effort into repairing and setup, and gain some more experience with that and trimming. Not sure where I'd put new (CA) hinges - probably have to put them right on the inside edge of the stab/elevator.
I'd suggest you take the surfaces off the plane, dig new pockets in the LE of ele/rud and TE stab/fin and install fresh wood. CA the wood in place and re-finish, then install new radio south hinges, Then seal properly. It won't change the flight character much probably but it would give you peace of mind.
It's a simple fix that wouldn't take long to actually do.....
OR, iron down a strip of monokote in the hing line and call it a day
03-07-2012 | 07:37 PM
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From: Apopka, FL
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
ORIGINAL: 8178
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
03-07-2012 | 08:25 PM
#22
Senior Member
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
ORIGINAL: Bill Clark
I'm on your side. If your hinge job is precise you dont need to seal it. a .010'' gap will not let enough air volume through to cause flutter in my opinion. On 3D planes I seal them because getting +-50deg and no gap is tough. If you end up with a decent gap and sloppy linkages then yes its probably required
ORIGINAL: 8178
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
03-07-2012 | 08:45 PM
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From: Apopka, FL
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
ORIGINAL: MTK
It's not a question of flutter on a thoroughbred precision aerobatic model. Rather, a matter of model lock and grooving to a control setting. An .010" gap is too much gap on this type of model. Pattern is not about banging sticks all over the TX.
ORIGINAL: Bill Clark
I'm on your side. If your hinge job is precise you dont need to seal it. a .010'' gap will not let enough air volume through to cause flutter in my opinion. On 3D planes I seal them because getting +-50deg and no gap is tough. If you end up with a decent gap and sloppy linkages then yes its probably required
ORIGINAL: 8178
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
If you build the control surfaces with zero gap you do not need to mess with trying to seal them with MonoKote. See page 2 and 6 of this link: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/Howa...2434444/tm.htm
03-07-2012 | 09:15 PM
#24
My Feedback: (15)
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
Flutter from control surface gaps? Everyone should read Minnflyer's article:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...rticle_id=1289
Very well written article and addresses the myth.
Kurt
http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/a...rticle_id=1289
Very well written article and addresses the myth.
Kurt
03-08-2012 | 01:55 AM
#25
RE: Sealing hinge gaps
I use some type of industrial magic tape, 3M type of thing. About 7cm width- packing box size.
Flipped the plane inverted, deflected the surface away from the side indended to seal and ran a lenght of tape alone the hinge line, sticking to both the Stab and elevator/ wing and aileron. When you release the surface to neutral, the tape folds into the gap but doesn't stick inside the hinge line.
I did it as a quick fix years ago and it's never come off. Works great. Simple and invisable.
The bad news is that it's takes a good 15 seconds to do each surface perfectly!
Bummer ...60seconds lost.
Flipped the plane inverted, deflected the surface away from the side indended to seal and ran a lenght of tape alone the hinge line, sticking to both the Stab and elevator/ wing and aileron. When you release the surface to neutral, the tape folds into the gap but doesn't stick inside the hinge line.
I did it as a quick fix years ago and it's never come off. Works great. Simple and invisable.
The bad news is that it's takes a good 15 seconds to do each surface perfectly!
Bummer ...60seconds lost.
