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Regarding 2.5mm rod ends and MK (red) clevis components.

I appreciate your concern...and I disagree. I have NOT had a problem using the Central 2.5mm titanium ends with the MK (red) components, specifically being too loose. My (3) most recent precision aerobatic models Brio, Focus Pro and Focus Pro each had the EXACT same combination with out any issues after 400+ flights. I do thread the components as far in as possible and due to my fabrication techniques require virtually no adjustment to properly align surface.

The MK package specifically indicates they are for 2.5MM hardware.

Edited 1/30/07 @2:45 CST: I have discovered that I have given incorrect information regarding my experiences with the MK 2.5mm rod adjuster with the NMP 2.5mm titanium ends. I actually used the NMP dual axis 2.5mm ends on the servo wheel of the ailerons and elevators (2 Futaba 9650 elevator servos) on my Brio and used the NMP 2.5mm dual axis ends on the aileron and 3mm dual axis ends on the elevator of my Focus models. Al Coomber of Central Hobbies recommends that the MK 2.5mm rod adjuster use either the 3mm NMP titanium pushrod end or use the MK 2mm rod adjuster with the NMP 2.5mm titanium ends.

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

David,

I also disagree. I'm using the same setup on my Mantis that I currently have and have over 1200 flights on it. I've never had a problem. I also ran them on my Eclipse previous to that, and I intend on running them on my new Black Magic's and I've never had a problem.

Rusty, plane is looking great. I'm still about 50/50 on making Phoenix, but I certainly hope to.

Arch

Just to add to the knowledge base here, the MK 2.5mm clevises are the correct size if you want to use the Hangar 9 titanium "Pro-Links". The links are 4-40 and self tap into the 2.5mm clevises and hold just fine. Attached pic of my electric Zeque with Pro-Link and MK 2.5mm clevis.

Hmm. I tested 6 pairs of 2.5 mm BB adjusters with the 2.5 mm titanium rod end threads. Dead positive that the thread size is 2.5 mm. These were brand new adjusters with no wear and no previous threading. In each case, after fully threading the adjuster to the max depth, I could separate the the adjuster from the rod end by pulling with my fingers.

Maybe I am unlucky, or there is some variation in the adjuster hole size? I've heard Troy talk about this. I think it is a known problem. Yes, the package says 2.5 mm, but in my experience you will not get a snug fit.

Edit: I don't mean to beat this to death. Obviously, we have had different experiences, and because of that I decided to take some measurements. I found that the hole size of a new pink 2.5 mm adjusters is 2.336 mm. On the titanium rod ends that I have, the diameter of the bare shaft is just 2.18 mm, and the diameter of the threaded portion is 2.337 mm. I also took the measurement of a 2.5mm screw, and the diameter is 2.54 mm. I have to conclude that the problem is in the titanium rod end diameter being far too small. The 2.5 mm screw that I have does indeed fit the adjuster snug, and I would have no fear of flying with this fit. However, I think I either received a bad batch of 2.5mm rod ends from Central Hobby, or you guys should double check how they fit before you fly.

David

Personally,Ive always used the 3mm MK links,with a steel 3mm threaded rod going into it ,and never had a problem----BUT--at the weekend a friend had a nearly-terminal experience with his Evolis when the 2.5mm link tried to come out of the threaded rod at the servo end of the MK thing with a yoke at the aft end,that operates the elevator via two external pushrods.
In his case, there was a sudden gross elevator trim change(Loads of extra down trim).
He managed to get it down safely, and the linkage pulled apart by hand on investigation.
I think I'll stay with two separate elevator servos at the back!

You must be very care when mixing hardware there is a difference in size on metric hardware: Japanese metric vs. European metric threads. What standard did the vendors follow?

Mark

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Regarding reliability of various control linkage combinations...

I have reviewed a number of photographs and made a few phone calls. I incorrectly stated that..."I have used the MK 2.5mm rod adjusters using the Central Hobbies 2.5mm titanium ends...". I was mistaken. I actually used the NMP dual axis ends (DARE25 $5.98, Central Hobbies)) on the servo ends for the ailerons and the elevator used the NMP 3mm dual axis ends. The NMP dual axis ends provide both rotational and linear action from one part. I also called Al Coomber of Central Hobbies to discuss further and he suggested that although a tight fit, the 3mm threaded pushrod ends are better for the MK 2.5mm rod adjusters or to simply use the 2mm MK rod adjuster as was recommended by the recent contributor from California.

Once again, I appreciate the feedback!

Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

Be careful with the Dual Axis ends that Central sells. My experience with them is that over time serious friction can develop between the actual little ball and the plastic arm. I've neve had such misalignment between the servo and the linkage as to "not" use the MK ball bearing device on the servo end. My opinion is that if you are going to pay for ball bearing stuff then use it all around. If you are going to use the NMP Dual Axis end, then just use metal-pinned Hayes clevis and a Goldberg plastic connector off the 6/32 screw. The Zeque is definitely "worth" ball bearing hardware all around. There is no way (again in my opinion) that the ball-link style connection is going to be the same or last as long as the MK stuff. It took me a long time to convert to BB, but they ARE the way to go. Also, ditto the loose fitting 2.5 mm problem with MK. I use the 3 mm ends now. However, once in a jam I used CA gell and a toothpick to coat the inner wall of the clevis, then threaded in without being able to pull out the titanium end.
Thanks,
Jim W.

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Wing...

Here is how I "fish" the servo wire from the servo opening to the center opening. The Zeque has a simple paper tube inside of the foam tunnel cut prior to the wings being sheeted.

First I use a piece of the yellow inner nyrod (sullivan brand) with a 1/4" hardware store screw eye on one end. I fish the nyrod from the servo to the center. I attach a piece of string, yellow, in this case and pull the servo wire through. See picture.


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

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Wing...

The next photos show blue 1" painters tape perpendicular to the aileron centerline AND centered on the plywood plate installed at the factory to mount the MK offset control horns with medium horns installed. I originally was going to use the long horns but it just did not look correct. I have drawn a line continuing from the edge of the servo case on to the tape with a clear drafting triangle. The dotted line is about 3/16 inside of the line which is the centerline of the horn based on the hole in the servo wheel I expect to use.

The other picture shows the servo wheel just before I dropped it onto the wing (see previous post). The hardware installed on the wheel is NOT going to be used, rather the NMP 2.5mm dual axis ends will be used. I understand the NMP ends to be designed for 24/7 operation in highly precision applications... The installed control horn is visible in the background ready for the custom made pushrods.

Once again, it should be noted that the use of these nifty little hardware components are as interesting to me as the airplane. I am intrigued by their precision and ingenuity.


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

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Graphics...

$3,650 airplane
$2,000 of stuff to make it fly

Looking at the custom graphics after they are applied...PRICELESS!

Ever since I saw Chip Hyde's "Dr. Jeckyll" in the magazine after the first time he flew it at the NATS, I began to understand and appreciate the impact of well executed graphics. No, I will never be on the US F3A Team and I recognize the fact that not everyone likes graphics, especially if they are for ADVERTISING. I like them and will continue to apply them on my stuff.

I get all of my graphics at BadBrad Graphics. Yes, BadBrad lives 15 minutes from me which is helpful. Yes, BadBrad treats me very right on price. But, that is NOT why I call BadBrad. It turns out that I used the same font, in the same colors for the last 15 years and Brad has helped me by being very creative and responsive in a variety of applications. Additionally, BadBrad has helped me with my trailer, my RV, contest signs, NSRCA banners, NSRCA stickers, custom logos, painting masks and is currently designing some graphics for my wife's KitchenAid countertop mixer (her idea)! I am told that he is typically 1/3 to 1/2 the cost of other fine graphics firms and usually ships within a week.

The Zeque graphics package required multi-layer custom cuts to be consistent with the quality of the over-all model. I have determined that my photo skills are poor and/or I need to upgrade my 3 year old camera to improve the quailty of the images.

The pictures are in no particular order. The little boy holding the wing is my 4 year old son-Chip. No, my wife came up with the nickname and it has nothing to do with the Chip you know but my Chip absolutely knows who the other Chip is. Please take a few moments to visit my RCU home page for other photos.


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

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Graphics continued...

These few photos show how I layed out the "Team Futaba" to match the "look" of the "Zeque" logo on the left wing. I used the same piece of yellow string from the servo wires and lined it up along the bottom of the Zeque. It was kind of along the hinge line but not really. The magic yellow string taped to the wing with painters tape helped. Using a fine point "Sharpie" I place a few dots along the graphics which were rough cut very square.

BadBrad suggests that I use a squirt bottle with water and a couple of drops of dish soap as a surface prep. I am not good enough and need something much more forgiving...Windex. Squirt the Windex on, spread it around with my hand, line up the graphic along the little dots and press it down in the center. Using a little squeegee I got at the local auto parts store (they come 3-5 to a package of various sizes) I move from the center to the edges. Spray the whole thing with Windex again (it helps release the alignment paper) and re-squeegee and set aside.

After about 10 minutes of sitting, I peel the alignment paper back on itself over the graphic and look for the devious little bubbles...press them out with my finger.

The pictures do not project the superb finish on the model or the 1, 2 and 3 layer graphics.


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

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Graphics...

More photos.


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

Awesome stuff Rusty. I wish I could join you guys in Phoenix and see those bad boys fly. Keep up the great posts please. Mike Mueller

WOW - Brad out did himself again! Very Sharp!

Rusty,

I absolutely LOVE the YS logo you have. I'm going to have to get a few of those.

Airplane is looking great. Take care.

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New camera, 7.1 megapixels.

Control linkages continued with photos of my Beryll to show another potential combination of hardware. The hardware consists of the previously mentioned NMP 2.5mm dual axis rod ends, MK medium control horn, MK ball bearing clevis and very cool SWB titanium turn-buckles with hexagonal center. SWB probably offers the best and deepest collection of super trick servo arms, rudder trays, engine stand-offs...

I will discuss further, just testing the camera and software.


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

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Fast and Furious efforts...

I am taking the model to Phoenix next Thursday 2/15, so this thread will be filled with pictures beginning Thursday or Friday because the airplane will be done Sunday evening. Several decisions have been made to simplify the completion and yet be consistent with my goal of having a maintenance free model.

1. I have decided not to add the PPG urethane clear coat to the engine compartment and belly pan. Troy Newman and I discussed the fact that the paint is an epoxy base all the way to the primer (including) and will save the weight. Base/coat clear/coat finishes are gorgeous and are prone to have the fuel seep between the clear or primer where you drilled a hole or enlarged a needle valve or exhaust hole. Mike Dorna, local F3A pilot and great guy was going to help me with this on Saturday. (More time with my little boys.)

2. Elevator pushrods- Mr. Suzuki, the designer of the Zeque, used the time tested single pushrod with a "Y" going to each elevator half. Plastic tubes captured the wire portion at the rear exit point and a plywood plate captured the pushrod at the servo end. Yes, effective, simple, not going to use this approach. Troy (mr. D.E.P.'s) will be installing the DEPS system when I arive in Phoenix. Thank you Troy!

3. I will be using a YS 1.60 DZ until the 1.70's arrive which is estimated to be prior to the 2007 NATS.

4. The aileron pushrod will be the SWB titanium turn-buckle, with hexagonal center and 4-40 left and right hand threads. This is very fast, very simple, light and strong.

5. Master wood worker and friend Bob Kohler, has volunteered to make me a Japanese style model cradle to hold the model while it is being assembled at the field. The Home Depot components will be assembled, urethane clear coated this weekend. BVM Models offers an very special rubber molding to protect the model from the stand. The tubing is available in their "parts" section for about $15.00. It features a 1/4" groove to accomodate 1/4" material. The Japanese pilots have gorgeous flight boxes and model stands. One can purchase them but are very expensive! ($250+ plus shipping)


Rusty Dose
Team Futaba
Team YS Performance

Rusty why not stick with the two servos in the stab. Offers double protection, and it much easier to set up than the DEPS. 2 servo may be a little heavier, but still is a good set up.

what about the trim changes using the deps??
i read some places here at the forum that the trimm may change if temp does, i have one set in my work shop and have to say that I almoste decide to use this on my new Oxalys but was a bit worry about this.
not that funny to get the plane up in a competition and find out that you have to use most off the first flight to trim the plane

Robert:

It not so much the extra weight of dual elevator servos, because the difference is miniscule, as the location of the weight. If the model is designed to balance with the elevator servo in the fuse, taking that weight and adding it to the tail of the model is going to have to be compensated for elsewhere. I like to stick with the design of the plane when first assembling, then you know what flexibilty you have for later changes.

Additionally, building the plane as designed means you don't have to start cutting holes in the stabs of a $3000 airframe. I have a little adversion to that, but maybe it's just me.

Mike

I'm flying an Astral XX with my install of the DEPS system installed and an I'm not having trouble with trim changes in Temperature.

Wood airplane, CF rods. We have had some cold temps the last month. I have flown it in conditions on the cold days of 50degs and yesterday it was 85deg F. Not a problem.

Troy Newman

Good Info Mike, i was looking at rusty pictures above and noticed that he already had the two servos installed, so for me Mr. Lazy I would just sitck with that set up. The DEPS system is not the easiest to install, it takes time and patience, two things I seem to lose the older I get LOL

Robert:

My bad; I had missed the picture of the stab with the two servos installed. I must be getting real old because I was sure the Zeque was designed for the servo in the fuse / pushrod elevator system and didn't have servo locations in the stab. I wonder what the chances are that somebody has posted a picture of the Beryll stab in the Zeque forum???

Mike, the Zeque is designed for the rudder and elevator servos in the fuse center. The exits for the elevator pushrods are built into the rear of the fuse. The pics above are Rusty's Beryll stabs. My Zeque over in the electric build thread has 2 servos in the rear but I put then into the fuse sides rather than into the stab halves.