what diameter? And wow - that is cheap - thin ones cost about 40p!

Are they reinforced? And also, would these be better for my Ghost train then the kinda messy sponsons that I have made?

Many thanks,

Andrew

hi mate ask scotty (tricat)he came up with the idea ,if you check out his gallery he has drawn up some instructions on how to make them and also has a cpl of videos of his boat sailing.they dont need rienforcing from what i understand .checkout tricats gallery .as he says 2 yrs of hard sailing speaks for itself .ill be giving it a go soon once ive got my new gas mono on the water(this weekend hopefully).sorry but i had to show her off please forgive me guys .

Hi Cowana,

Good try on your GRP moulding Technique, and has shown you what it is all about. At least you have had a go and now know more of what it is about in trying to make a GRP Moulding! However, from whatyou say, I should think this weighs a fair amount compared to just five ounces of a 'Foamy' Float! Of course a 'Foamy' is far from ideal in it's shape and lack of volume, but they really are perfectly useable and dead easy to set up and then 'adapt for each sailing condition.

Thanks to our inexperienced 'Resident Expert', but the best person to speak to is 'tricat'! He has by far the most experience of using them on this site so far, and he has done some excellent drawings of their shape and fittings required. They are also very cheap, so just trying them out is not exactly going to break the bank!

I would like to thank Dick L for bringing to my attention this Class on Scale Models, but making a model that large is just too much for over here I think! The 2M Class over here has little following as it is, as it requires a lot more equipment to transport them over here! In the UK these days, people just want to sling the boat in the back of a car, rig up the swing rig, switch on and off you go within a minute! Even a MINI40 used to take half an hour to assemble and rig up! Whilst the idea of super size models sounds good, over here in our cramped little country they are not the easiest size to use. And of course, what is built as 'Scale' to one, is not sometimes seen as that by some others! Building to Scale can sometimes have pitfalls when trying to build the beams strong enough and keep them scale too. There is 'Scale' and useable 'Scale', ..but then is that 'Scale'!

In the USA I think you have a little more 'room' in which to live, build and then use such models because your country is so much larger than here. Because of the Fuel situation for one, (at £5 per gallon as near as damn it), people go for small cars, and therefore would need a trailer to transport such models. And some small cars are forbidden from using trailers! In a majority of small gardens where do you put the trailer and build the boat in the first place? And how long would the mast be too? Sounds all very expensive for me unfortunately, but I do like the idea of big models. I have built boats from a fleet of 365 3" three masted ships up to 54 feet Ferro Cement boats amongst many others in all forms of materials, and everytime you need more room to build them than you think!

However, my eyes are turned over to you Dick L, and maybe you and MultiFast could build one between you and show us why we need to emigrate over there!! With over 100,000 'ethnic' Britons emigrating each year now, maybe that is the answer! Know any good Estate Agents over there?

Hi Cowana, FOAMY FLOATS ?I am getting a little worried that foamy floats could be two things,
one a float made of foam polstyrene,or foam [closed cell soft foam].The first is the one used to get
a shape of a hull cut and sanded to shape,then as described by IDEALIST and I believe MULTIMAN to make a mould from this by whatever method they are using.The second is the one is a very cheap way of using ,rather than making a float.The insulation floats come in two types,the first has
a 12.7mm hole down the middle.The second has a 19.05mm hole down the middle[Do NOT use this type.]It is weakened by the larger hole]The first type[12.7] IS ok and as stated by Martno1fan,they have been used for upto two years before they need replacing.Just to correct one thing it was my mate who came up with the idea of using them for using with a 1M hull conversion.The other thing
is the volume [untouched]will support about 6.97lbs[3.16kg] This is ok for a 1M if ,like mine weigh about 3.75lbs [1.7kg] I don't think they would support a mini40 in anything but a very calm day.
As to needing any support,the only time we have thought about it was on a hot day [24C] they started to droop[wilted????]I then thought that if the sketch showing the float attachments had the plastic pipe lengthened to run from just behind the rear crossbeam to just forward of the front crossbeam, it would stop the middle part of the float from drooping,and maybe still allow the rocker
to be changed.I have not been able to apply this to my multi as it has been well below 24C since
that day.Normally they flex and bounce around but seem to retain the shape you bend them to
and do not distort even in really strong gusts.Hope this usefull to you.Regards Scotty

I made the Ghost Train at just over 1 meter long, and it is a lot lighter han my IOM. I will some insulation and see how it goes! Shall I seal up the hole at the back? Point the back? I saw your useful diagram about what to do for the front (bow, I mean).

Hmm - I just realied now that I built the mast for a 48 inch boat (or whatever it is meant to be), while the boat is 1 meter...

Oh well - thanks for all the help about floats!

Right!

I have just returned from B&Q, with a 2 meter bit of insulation.

It is 63mm wide (diameter), and the hole is 16mm. I now need to mke it into sponsons. One question I havefr trict, is on your pictures, on diagram 'fittings 2', on the cross section sideview, what is:

The rectangle with the solid black outline,

The shaded item that is inside the rectangle

and also, what is the plastic tubeyou mentioned? Is this the black rectangle? Also, can the yellow thing be made out of 1mm aluminium?

Many thanks,

Andrew

Multiman -

I am finally on the same "wave length" as you and realize your personal background details and who you are....... Duh !

Anyway, I am proceeding with what will be a monohull version of a VOR60 (sorry - it's not a multihull) that will resemble at scale, the boat "HUGO BOSS" which in it's stark black and white color scheme should be outstanding. I had seriously thought of a 1/10 scale multihull, but the closest to a decent size might be the 40 footers that provided in-shore spectator appeal during the various stop-overs of the big monohulls. I am not quite ready for a 2 Meter sized multihull.

I would be concerned that going smaller than a 40 foot (original sized) boat would limit ability to get radio under decks for a catamaran, and sill have room for a truly scale (at a distance) appearance. To better give the other readers an idea of what a VOR60 looks like when scaled down to 1/10 of original size, the following photo can show relationship. This one happens to be a French boat, but painted/detailed with HUGO BOSS colors is easy to imagine.




As noted above - this scale "COULD" be feasible if kept to "real" multihull designs ranging from30 feet on up. I do agree with you that travel will become an issue, and acknowledge that we have plenty of space to sail and work in backyards over here. I would guess most anyone moving here would find more than adequate space, lower cost of living than UK or Europe, and some level of weather that meets your liking. Housing costs right now are down a bit (buyer's market) but expected to rise with summer on the way. Obviously we do have some things that are not likeable, but that is to be expected anywhere.

Now, taking on a 2 Meter multi build, adding the scale hardware like the above monohull, and it too would be a head-turner and gather spectators and interest at any pond - or even on it's cradle. I will have to keep bugging you to try and convince it would/could be the first UK boat of that size for that class. For those with a 1 Meter sized trimaran, look around and see what might be in that size range as a real boat (only 10 times bigger) !

Regards

Oh my! What a great looking boat!!!! Monohull it may be, but look at all the detail!!!! Just think of the 1/10 Multis like FUJI and the like!!!!!

There was a small Class of I think America Cup boats. These were however not Radio Controlled, as the skipper lay down inside them!!

Any ideas on the rudder foil?

The bottom of the rudder is angled backwards slightly (so if a plate was put on the back it would pull the back down).

Should I just glue a bit of plywood to the bottom so t looks like the attached image of the black boat? (obviously on my rudder sketch, the angle has been emphisised.

Does the foil have to be an areofoil? If so, can someone draw me a crosssection?

Many thanks,

Andrew

Many thanks,


Andrew

HA ! I thought you would like the size. !

Yes, it would be a problem to transport - but my goodness, set up with minitaure Harken winches, travellers and blocks, along with static (non-working) bits and pieces you must admit it would be a wonderful sight.


Here is a photo of a rudder foil on a scaled down 1 Meter US boat (State of Washington) built from the Mini40/F-48 plans obtained from Mike Friend (a fellow UK multihull enthusiast) It is "PULSE" and I believe it was UK Championship in late 1990's as I recall. You can see that there isn't a need for huge foils, just enough to start downward pressure as water flow moves over the foil. At slow speeds, (light wind) you don't need the foil, so very little negative angle is required. As wind picks up, boat speeds up and more water/pressure takes place to begin to try to force the stern down and keep bows up.

In my old 1 Meter, I had a small foil that had only 1 degree negative angle. Some will use up to -3 degrees. Hope this helps.

Thanks Dick!

So it is just a piece of flat material.

Tricat - I have bought the pipe insulation, designed the bows (as you showed with your picture), and expoyed in the things to connect to the crossbeams.

Thanks for all your help!

Hi Cowana,The cross section shows where a slit for the triangular fitting will fit and be locked in by as mentioned,by taping up the the thin saw cut made to let the triangular fitting be slotted into place.The shaded area is where I just tape up the cut end so secure the fitting in place.The tape will not come off as it will be trapped inside the foam tube,with the fitting in place.The tubing mentioned is ordinary plastic pipe used in plumming of 1/2"[12.7mm]dia.should be a close fit to the hole in the foam.The triangular fitting must have a minimum width of 5mm otherwise it has too much freedom
for the cross beam to slop around resulting in the float doing the same,although once under pressure
it is held steady by the side pressure.Well done Cowana I see you are pressing ahead ok,hope the info is ok for you.Just noticed notes on the foil.The angle refers to the water surface as Dick says it only needs a small angle of negative angle otherwise you get something like a submarine[Yes OK I've done it and found out the hard way!!!!!????]In those days I had no contacts to put me right
Regards Scotty

multiman i dont know who you are nor do a care yet you still try to pour scorn on me when i was trying to help out a mate.Did you say you used to make comercialy available boats? i wonder why you still dont?.theres a word for guys like you but its not allowed on these forums so this one will need to do POMPOUS!!.good luck with it andy sorry you failed with your grp floats ,but maybe THE EXPERT will help you out on how to do it? i doubt it though but you never know.By the way multi i think i realise who you are and i doubt very much your english .seems to me your just here to cause trouble to me.by the way andy the foil on the rudder needs to be the shape of an airplane wing but upside down that will give you the shape you need .

Hi Cowana,

In the UK MINI40 Class they were many different styles of Tailfoil on the rudder and at a load of different angles. Some boats did not use any at all, and I have proved even in a gale that my CHEETAH Catamaran didn't need them!! You certainly don't need them in the light wind stuff, but even at 10 degrees of negative angle with the foil upside down to a wing, it didn't seem to impair it's performance when sailing against the same two other boats in such airs!!! It really is a case of whether you personally want them on your boat or not, their shapes and Negative angles!!![img][/img]

Oh dear, Oh dear, Martno1fan!!!

It seems to me that if you look over the past few pages and see how much help and information I have given out on this FORUM, it is BY FAR AND AWAY, MORE THAN YOU!!!!

You have not even built a Multihull, as for me I have nearly 40, and I have been building full sized Catamarans from 26' up to 44', and F1 Cats that do 150 mph as well as those models. So 'Yes', I can call you INEXPERIENCED on these matters compared to me, and most of the others on here !!! The majority of people on here HAVE built and used Multihulls, so 'Yes', I do find it a little galling when you keep piping up on matters you have only picked up from others, and not from your own personal experience!!! OK?

So far in your favour though, is that you have put on here some great Videos! But are even those yours?

But please, stop calling people 'MATE', as I for one AIN'T one of yours !!! OK?

haha im not disputing your experience just dont like your attitude MATE!!!also i see nothing wrong in pointing a mate which andy is in the right direction since we were online at the same time when he posted that question about the floats.also look at the amount of posts ive made on the gas forum then tell me youve helped more people than me.im allways willing to help out fellow builders and by the way i have experience at building full size boats also as im a time served boat builder.if i come across information i feel may interest people interested in building multis ill continue to make it available and i see no harm in that whatsoever.your the one who seems to have this high opinion of himself not me this is or was a fun thread till you showed up andy and myself were swapping ideas and info thats what this forum is all about.you seem to have another aggenda i beleive ?.by the way why dont you stop hiding behind that name and lets know who you really are or is there a reason you wont?.

Here are some pictures of my trimaran so far, with Tricat's floats.

I know it isn't the best boat ever, and it would be no good racing, but... you try building a trimaran for less than about £20!

Should be fun to sail! The lines going from the top of the mast to the front of the sponsons are because when I tilted it on its side, the front dropped because the boat twisted. These lines are tight enogh to stop the twisting, but loose enough to not bend the mast any more. They are not nearly as tight as the shrouds, and do not support the mast at all.

More pictures

Andrew

Hi Dick,Just thought about your comment about transport !You can see my problem with my stripped down multihull,I nearly need a trailer !??[].But I must admit that is some yacht !!!!

Hi Cowana,You ask what to do with the transom end of the floats.I usually cut them at a slant just to make them look like a modern
stern,and use a bit of the cut off to plug the hole.I don't glue this in but do trim it to look better.!!!?[there is not much you can do to a tube.]There is another transom I used by cutting the end to the same measurement in [4"]BUT instead of starting at the edge of the circle you start just outside the centre hole in the pipe so as to eliminate it,in other words a smaller wedge.Then glue up just like the bows,this should give you a slight taper,with a small oval transom with no hole.Be warned though it will collect water in that hollow centre of the tube,If so just cut an old biro pen up as a tube and shove it through the transom as a drain hole.You seem to cracking on with your multi quite well looking at your photos.Oh yes,if your floats start to part at the front just force contact adhesive into the joint and reclingfilm them this time sticking tape to one side of the joint,then dragging the tape across till the joint can be seen tight shut.leave to cure.I've looked back at my notes and read that a 48" mast would carry afair size sail,and even thought that 54"could be carried,but then as I have mentioned we went onto the flexytop swing rigs of 39" to 42"which give ample drive in all conditions except
downright nasty weather.Hope the info helps.Regards all Scotty

Hi Cowana,

Good job! It does not matter what anything costs, as long as you give it a go and have some fun out there!! And don't think just because it's cheap you don't stand a good chance in racing it!! Tricat and Mr X for two have proved that their M1M Cats and Tris take some beating!!! The cheaper the better is my motto! That is why I have not attempted to make GRP mouldings for the M1M Class so far!

At least you are getting on and building a boat!

Tricat -

I do agree with you on the soon-to-be-needed-trailer, especially if your fleet grows as quickly as mine!

I also understand and recognize that the larger scale-sized boats have limited appeal for a variety of reasons. Here in the U.S. it seems the limit is the amount of money most will allocate toward the hobby/sport - and is to be expected. Like full size yachts, only so many many can afford to play the MaxZ-86/VOR60 & 70's game. I would expect the same with r/c yachts at the upper sized end.

That said, I have offered a suggestion to interested persons that the larger class boats "could" become syndicates where (as example) you and several of your friends could band together, build a 1/10 scale ORMA tri, and share expenses, racing duties, repairs, etc. - no different than if you all agreed to go together and as a group buy a 10 meter cat! I have also lobbied hard to resist rules that prevented sponsorships - allowing builders to find other sources of revenue to play the game. Nowhere does it say only one radio, so you could relegate one to steering, one to main sheet and jib trim, and perhaps one to handling spinnaker duties. Regardles, you MUST STOP thinking in terms of normal sailing yachts that are most common today. Instead of a single engine, stunt flyer, consider a huge Liberator bomber, B-52, etc. owned and flown by several in the r/c flying world as a comparison.

Finally, the beauty is the 1/10 class allows for interested persons who may not enjoy "Racing" to participate in building to scale. There are a lot of people out there who enjoy scale building, but stay away from r/c sailing since we mostly concentrate only on racing! With hardware available at 1/10, there is no reason why you couldn't build to a real boat size of 10 meters or so, as scaled down to 1/10 it's size, you would be close to a 1 meter multihull anyway. It is just we (class) encourage you to build to make it look like a "real" boat - including winches, tillers, blocks, etc. Anything to make it of visual interest. If you/they have a desire to race, nothing prevents them from doing that - either as one design - or as a handicap class if someone is willing to spend the time to develop a handicap system. Regardless of what size is built, the intended effort is for "eye-appeal" first, followed by performance if one is so inclined.

Do chat this up with friends as there may be some not reached by internet discussion boards who might have an interest. I am happy to field any questions.

Many thanks for your comments and thoughts.

Hi Dick,Yes I agree,even over here there has been a swing towards scale sail.It seemed to really get going in around the year 2000,first with small scale usually kit models,then all of a sudden the scale 6m yachts arrived.The club I was in had about 10 of these plus all the other scale models.I used to race 36",1M's marbleheads and 'A' class,but gave up racing for health reasonAs I used to race dingy's I could not stop sailing just like that,so I made a 36" model of a Sydney Harbour 18'
skiff complete with wings.I had of course added some floats to the end of the wings[A Trimaran!!??]
It was mildly successfull,and occasionally sprinted past 1M.It had no ballast and the floats were out of sight under the wings,so were in the wrong place to keep it upright in the gusts of any power.It was the that I met multiman who made a mould of the hull.Although it was lighter it still did not sail as I would have liked.I still have it,but it needs radio fitting again.That's how Multiman,Mr X and myself got to know each other and still do swap ideas to see if we can improve on what we already have.I love the grace of the 'A' boats etc.,but I'm afraid I love the shear speed of the multihulls,and without doubt think that the nicer they look makes them even better !I am at the moment trying to design a new flexy top rig for the multi with a barn door main and a masthead jib of about 1000sq inches,but have got to waite till I can check my centre of lateral resistance again on the multihull.
I am at the moment also putting it back together so hope to sail this weekend.Regards Scotty

Hi Dick -

I am home for the holiday weekend, then hit the trail again early next week.

In the meantime, the pond was free of ice, a nice sunny Sunday, and a very light breeze. I took your old trimaran to the pond after church, and did a float test to check if I found all the leaks. Looks like I still missed one just forward of daggerboard trunk. I guess dropping it in the parking lot last fall wasn't the best idea!

Before pulling the boat, I verified that the leak was a slow one and proceeded to reach up and down the pond for a bit. Tried to reach you by cell phone, but no answer! Anyway, changing over to the old (new) sail design seems to have improved pointing ability and reduced weather helm a bit. Perhaps it's better balanced. Also, I changed out your rudder for one with a bit more area, and without the foil. No difference in bow-down handling - she remained on even keel when hit a by a few tiny gusts. With more side area, it was a bit more responsive (or so it seemed) and I only got caught in irons once. I did modify my tacking to make a larger turn, instead of trying to tack it like my old monohull. You may be right in a bit more rocker to the main hull might improve tacking response - but all I can say is that it handled like a different boat ! What a change. I still want to borrow/try your original sails for this cat, even if they are too big. In today's winds the boat would have been a rocket - instead it was only a jet ! Hee Hee ! [8D] Even the geese were impressed!

Not sure if you will read this today - if not I will email you with my schedule - I should be back next weekend for a few days before traveling again. Sure wish they would hurry up and hire a replacement so I could stay in office and have some personal time to "play" - now when I get home, wife has a list of things to do. sigh !

regards, call me if you read this - I'm able to make it back to pond later this afternoon - if not call me on cell.

Tricat & Multiman - (and others)

Just a quick question on your thoughts .............

Today I was approached regarding the 1/10 scale class but for a multihull syndicate instead of monohull. Here's the issue. I already have an F-48 nearly complete. The idea was to move up to a 2 Meter, and if successful, possiblly even a 3 Meter to round out my "fleet". Unfortunately, an ORMA 60 scaled down to 1/10 puts it almost in the middle of the Mini40 and the 2 Meter!

The Mini40 (or F-48) is 1.5 meters in size, while the 2 Meter multi is (obviously) 2 Meters. My quick conversion seems to indicate a 60 foot ORMA tri will scale down at 1/10 size to about 1.7 meters (rough calculation for discussion) - so the question - do I go against the 2 Meter class in order to have a 1/10 scale multi - or do I forego the multihull in favor of a monohull?

With a few minor changes and a bit of enlargement, I can come in with a boat that would closely resemble Groupama, Sodebo, or any one of a number of the ORMA 60 crowd using my Mini40/F-48 plans. With a bit more of work, I suppose I could have a catamaran configuration with graphics to resemble "Orange" - the other option is to drop down to the 40 footers like Alingi but that will give me a boat at (about) 1 meter which I already have (and could replicate the old Formula 40 class at that size).

If the 2 meter class of multihulls are dying in Europe and UK - I have no urgent need to support them here - mainly because I think once we get going we will begin to pick up more scale builders than multihull racers. On the other hand, if the 2 Meter class is merely in a lull between builds by owners, I would hate to turn my back - even though I see it less popular here than even there in the UK.

Currently, I am thinking a 1/10 scale multihull - while waiting to see how the monohull builders handle canting keels and asy spinnakers. I would ignore the 2 Meter class and look towards the "scale" class in which to start. This would follow my "love" for multihulls and at the same time support the start-up of the 1/10 Scale Class, thereby providing one more boat to the fledgling class. Since we arren't planning to begin racing after the second boat hits the water, it would seem this thought would be the best to pursue. Yet, I continue to be torn with the thought of building a potential monohull - if for nothing more than looks, ease of transportation and setup (compared to a trimaran)

What say you ? (anyone welcome to join in here.)