That looks great! I had a heck of a time doing the lamination when I was working on a scratch-built Nieuport (due mostly to my own lack of skills) so I ended up making up an elevator and rudder of aluminum tubing.

Abu, I thought I noticed a Nieuport fuselage in one of your recent Snipe posts. What scale is it and how did you do those elevator hinges?

Your aluminum outlines look great and I thought about it but chickened out because there are reports of the Proctor plane somersaulting over on its back occasionally. My only concern with aluminum is that it might bend out of shape when the plane goes over. The Nieuport 11 rudder is especially vulnerable because the highest point is aft of the rudder post.

Edit: You clever dawg, the hinges are plastic tie straps, no?

It's a rather convoluted tale but here's the (semi-)short version: a couple of years ago I wasn't doing any building because I figured it would just be too hard here in Japan. But then my balsa addiction got the better of me and I said to myself "well, maybe just something fun and easy" and the Nieuport 11 structure looked simple. I had a set of the Joseph Nieto drawings so I enlarged those on the office copier to the size of a pot I was going to use for a cowl. I think it's roughly 1/6 scale but might be a tad bigger. And so I started building right on the drawings -- just to see what would happen. I got quite a ways into that build when I figured I really needed a practice plane (sound familiar?) and bought a Flair Legionaire and the build sort of morphed into the Legionaire. I was coming to the end of that when Chris offered me the Snipe and so both Nieuport projects have been sidelined for over a year. Now with a couple of other projects on the horizon with Chris, I'm not sure when I'll get back to the Nieuports.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_29...tm.htm#2904955

But then I could probably have the Legionaire ready in bare-flying state in a couple of weeks.

This is a fair concern. I was just having a devil of a time doing the laminations and wasn't at all happy with the result I was getting. The Snipe uses the lamination method on the stock rudder and elevator (with the laminated curves glued on either side of a thin balsa core). But I ended up making my own early-production rudder out of bamboo.

Yep. They were after all called "strap hinges"! I'm still testing these but it looks hopeful. Note that it's necessary to add a spot of epoxy at the point of final attachment to secure the strap to the aluminum ring.

Mike,
Yes, it is their 1/5 scale Lewis kit. There was a time that I provided design work for them, and in return aquired various parts/pieces to one-offs and prototypes. I was going to use this kit on my Proctor N-11, but opted to build the N-16 version instead, since I had their 1/5 scale Vickers kit on hand, and not many '16's get modeled.

The Williams Bros kits are great, but limited to certain scales. I'll send the 1/5th Lewis to you, PM your address to me.

John

Thanks for the offer John. I just sent you a PM. I'll document construction of the Arizona Models 1/5 Lewis Gun in the thread. I hadn't planned on using the Williams Bros offering because, as you mentioned, it would be too far out of scale. I was going to try a scratch-build because I didn't know about the Arizona offering. Lou Proctor wrote some brief notes on scratch building a gun on the plans.

not sure if anyone is interested, but i found this site this morning which also has links to other excellent documentation on the N 11.

http://www.nieuport-11.com/

Nice find, Summerwind!

It was raining yesterday so I took the time to work on the Nieuport. The kit calls out a piece of 1/4x3/8 balsa for both the rudder post and stabilizer trailing edge. The wood was very light and I could bend it like rubber. I sandwiched a strip of carbon tape between 2 pieces of Titebond buttered 1/8x3/8 stock as a substitute. This improved the stiffness dramatically with barely any weight penalty. I should also mention the little bamboo skewers in the kit. The strength to weight ratio of these little buggers is amazing. I am so impressed I went out and bought more at a local culinary shop. These would rock for pinning firewalls etc. There were 3 bamboo pieces in the stabilizer that where too long to avoid splicing two sticks together. I reinforced the splices by rolling strands of fiberglass removed from a piece of cloth around each splice. I stained the rudder and stab/elevators with Proctor medium oak stain prior to final glueing. The tail framing is now complete and the rudder is incredibly stiff. The stab can still be flexed back an forth when grasped at the tips. There will be struts attached but I still want to try and get it a bit stiffer. I also plan to assemble the top wing this week.

Work has begun on the upper wing and is progressing a bit slower than the lower wings did. In addition to the ailerons there is also the complication of internal structural rigging. I decided to use real cable for the rigging instead of the aluminum rod in the kit for scale reasons. In a previous trip to the Michaels/Hobby Lobby type craft store I stumbled across a great multistrand wire in the bead jewelry section. The brand names are Beadalon, Soft Flex and several others. Whats great about this stuff is its very flexible and its nylon coated so radio interference shouldn't be an issue. In the photo's below I've dry assembled half the wing to show the overall construction with a closeup of the aluminum torque tube aileron system. That funny looking brown piece is what the servo pushrod will attach to and has to slip over the rear spar before the ribs are glued to the wing.

I'm still working out the details for my rigging but have decided it will anchor in four places at the tips of the wing using the system shown in the photos. It works by crimping a loop in the rigging, passing it thru a hole in the spar, and anchoring it with a piece of a small paperclip on the other side. The anchor requires three small holes be drilled in each spar but stress shouldn't be an issue so close to the tips of the wings. You can also see a couple of fake turnbuckles I'm toying with.

The current idea is to pass the wire through the reinforced points in the webs of the wing ribs instead of drilling any more holes in the spars. The 4 wires will be connected together at the center of the wing with two real turnbuckles and tightened with the completed wing pinned down. Then all the points where wire touches wing will be epoxied and places where the wires cross one another will be tied with fiberglass thread and epoxied.

That looks fantastic! It was at the wing stage that I "gave up" on my Nieuport scatch build. I built a pretty reasonable "first try" of the top wing using a scale rib outline, a box-style spar, dowel leading edge, and aluminum tube tips. But I hadn't planned ahead on the cut-out for the aileron torque tube bellcranks (which I first cut of brass then later replaced with ply) and it was clear I was going to have to start over.

Although I've done some smaller stuff for static display, this is my first attempt at a flying WWI model and I'm learning a lot about how the structure works. Does anyone happen to have a pic or link that shows how the full-scale N11 wing is internally braced? I'm wondering if there were compression bars between the spars like on the Albatros and Nieuport 28 wing.

Don, at this point I like having the safety net (and convenient parts) of a well designed kit. At the same time it's fun to make a small change here and there to make it my own. One day I hope to scratch build straight from Wylam drawings. The Antoinette fascinates me and I would love to scratch that plane in 1/4 or 1/5 scale. For now this N11 is challenge enough!

I've really put the screws to the workers at the Nieuport factory this week. Our boys need planes at the front and orders are piling up!

I've completed the main wing except for some odds and ends like strut mounting blocks and final sanding. Substituting the steel beading wire/turnbuckles for the kit supplied aluminum rod was a big scale improvement but the wing isn't real stiff. I held off on gluing the wire in to see if it loses tension over time and I figure that once it's glued it will stiffen up a bit. My hunch is that the internal cross-bracing is most likely drag bracing on the full-scale plane. I'm hoping the four strut points and external bracing wires will provide most of the stiffness to the model. But...I'm keeping my options open in case I need to revert to the stock rod. I emailed Proctor for advice on this and I'll let the thread know what they say.

Next up are the ailerons. These must be built after the wing is assembled and removed from the plan because of those black lever arms being too tall when installed on the torque tubes to allow the wing to sit flat on the board. I was sailing along with such confidence when I got to the upper wing that I began ignoring the instruction booklet. Disaster was barely averted when glancing at the booklet I realized the top wing leading edge is balsa not spruce as it is on the lower wing. Unlike the rest of the airframe in this kit, the upper wing is kinda complicated and one needs to understand it completely before starting. Lesson to self: Always read the instructions!

Since the interplane V-strut outline is conveniently right next the ailerons on the plan I decided to glue those up as well. I plan to reinforce the v-joint with bamboo rod. I hope to find some nice heavy black cord to detail the compression bands soon.

I included a shot of my wall decor in my crowded building room. I hope to begin on the fuselage next week. Man, there sure are a lot of parts still in the box! I'm glad I chose the N11 for my first Proctor. Looking over the plans for my other Proctor kits the principle construction method is the same but much more involved than this one.

Anyone out there have a Proctor Nieuport 11 for sale?.

Joe of Proctor is working on a new batch of N11's right now.................
there is one on ebay, but it's your chance.......

http://cgi.ebay.com/Proctor-Nieuport...QQcmdZViewItem

i'd buy a fresh kit if you want one.
i have a wanted post for a N28, and the best offer i got on a 4 yr or older kit was $500.00..........i've ordered a new one from Joe..........it'll be a 4 week wait, but it'll be unfondled.

Time for a build update. The Nieuport elves were busy this weekend. Joe at Proctor responded quickly to my email about my wing stiffness using the cable instead of aluminum rod in the kit. He told me the cable should be fine and that the structure will stiffen up much more when covered and bolted together with the cabanes and external rigging. So I feel much better now.

The ailerons were framed up without much incident. I did reinforce the outer laminations with some additional 1/64 ply strips just because they felt a bit vulnerable hanging out in the breeze like they do. The ailerons slid into their sockets in the wings and work great.

Since its the beginning of the week it's time to start on the fuselage. I found out where all the parts go: the fuse! All the shaped pieces and even the pre-bent longerons fit EXACTLY to the plans. It builds up in the conventional sense in that you build each side, then glue horizontal members between the two sides. But there's one little twist, so to speak. The sides are slanted at an angle giving the pilot more elbow room at the top and narrowing toward the bottom where his feet don't need as much. Looking at the fuselage from the front, the fuse would look like a trapezoid in cross-section. Being faithful to this shape, the kit method has you build the sides with the top longeron hiked up in mid-air! This is really strange to me but the kit has gone together smashingly so far so I'm doing it! Stay tuned!

While watching parts glue together thoughts have begun to turn toward how this mount will look in finished form. I've been going over some of the more famous planes and am leaning toward this one. It was flown by Lt. Armand De Turenne while in Escadrille N48. I like it because its colorful but leaves the wings in clear doped linen so when its in the air you can see through the wings. The wings are outlined in dark brown. I think the insignia on the sides is basic enough I can paint it by hand so thats an added plus.

I like Belgian colors but haven't seen an N11 with a Belgian tail that jumps out at me yet.

The fuselage has knit together without any trouble so far. Photo1 Completing the fuselage sides requires blocking up the front and back and clamping down at least one longeron in order to get the aft section to lay flat on the plan. Photo2 Next, the firewall and servo support shelf are built as a unit. This step is the secret to getting the front of the fuselage straight every time. Photo3 Each fuselage side is glued to the firewall assembly. This stage practically builds itself because the parts are so accurate you don't have to sand or adjust anything. Photo4 The last step in constructing the basic fuselage has you pin the fuselage to the top view of the plan while allowing the firewall to hang over the edge of the build-board. This step isn't difficult but can be a bit fiddly trying to get the exact same shape as the plan. Persistent commitment to accuracy will pay off here with a straight tail group and nicely fitting parts later.

I added 1/4" segments of aluminum tubing for rigging the entire structure with bead wire at each of the perpendicular connections. More on that next time.

Mike,

Your N11 is coming along nicely! I have one flying, I flew it at Rhinebeck this year and at Gerry Yarrish's MWM in CT as well. I'm traveling so I can't post a pic, but there's one of it on the Proctor site.

One trick I did with the rudder was build a removable frame that, while in storage, holds the rudder outline from warping. It's basically a copy of the old frames that used to surround wooden tennis rackets.
I had some warping trouble with my N11 and my GTM DR1, but the frame solved it. When I get home I'll take a pic and post it.

The plane flies great, very docile in the air, though take-off is a challenge. I'm using a Saito 90 twin and it sounds great as well. You will enjoy flying this plane. I also have a thread going on my 1/3 scale N28 over at RCscalebuilder if you're interested.

Cheers and please keep posting!

Whit

You're really moving along on this. Did you find any need to recess the firewall for your engine, and what did you finally decide to use?

You've probably seen this Belgian N.11. It's on my list of possible color schemes for mine.

Jim

Hello Whit,
Thanks for the info! Interesting that your GTM rudder warped also. I thought I was in the clear using Glenn's lamination method in place of the Proctor reed outlines. You Hudson Valley guys are spoiled with Rhinebeck in your backyard. I don't get over to RCSB much anymore since they blocked my access for not paying their "donation" fees. Great site though!

I'm feeling reassured in your reporting how well this plane flies. My expectations were that it would be a bit squirrelly on the ground. Fortunately, the field where I fly has a large grassy area thats always well groomed and works for WWI skid draggers.

Jim,
I'm going to use my trusty SuperTigre 61 2-stroke. I know its not going to sound as nice as a 4-stroke but I have the engine ready to go and it doesn't require any firewall mods. Besides, that 61 pulls like a truck with the right prop. I hope I don't have to add lead to front but I'm not wagering anything on it.

The Belgian mount you posted is interesting. The personal marking on the side reminds me of Chinese Tangram pieces.

I'm frankly as surprised as you guys at how fast this plane is coming together! Last night I was trying to think of why this build is going so well. First is, that most of the parts are already cut out for you and fit perfect. Second, is that it just feels like I'm building a real airplane in miniature. Third, so far I haven't hit a single snag with this kit that would normally suck some of the enthusiasm out of it. I've managed to maintain a pretty good pace because I'm really enjoying seeing it come together. Sorry if I sound like a Proctor fanboy .

wphilb,
I am kind of surprised that your GTM rudder warped.I covered my rudder a couple years ago and it hasn't changed.I liked the method so much I used it on my DVII for the tail and ailerons as well as my current Albatros.

Regarding using alum tube for the outlines,it does look good but is near impossible to repair. I bought a crashed Ponnier that has alum. tube on the rudder and I am going to have to make an all new outline for it.

The DR1 I have was purchased from Glenn and was his flying display model for many years, so at some point it warped either from storage or differential heat? I built another one from his parts, by his design and used the compression "tennis racket" frame for storage and no problems and a couple of years strong. The Proctor N11 also started to warp, but I built a similar frame and no issues. I think the issue is going from hot summers to cold winters and basement storage?

Rhinebeck can spoil you, want to build a DVII and need to measure something? Just get in the car and drive a half hour and take all the pics you need! The event itself is a "yearly don't miss" for my family and I.

Regarding the N11 on the ground, a friend of mine greatly helped my ground handling by pointing out that I had some play in the rudder cables. I put a turnbuckle on one side and tightened it up and that made a great bit of difference. You still need to be on top of it on take-off, but not bad. I don't spend much time on the ground, get it in the air directly. Once there she's a real pleasure, one of the easiest bipes to fly I have. Landing is like a DR1 in that you want to minimize roll-out and get the tail planted ASAP.

Whit

If I could add my $.02, I have built and flown two of the Proctor Nieuport 11 aircraft over the years. I used 2-stroke .60 engines on both, with 14/4 props and had no issues with take off or flying authority. As with any WWI aircraft, make sure it is balanced a bit nose heavy and keep the speed up on landing. Right rudder during takeoff and cross controlling during flight was pretty much necessary for scale competition. I take off my WWI aircraft with a slow build up of throttle, coupled with right rudder and a bit of aileron for balance. The Proctor designs are excellent flying machines. I watched Whitney perform very well with his plane during the Connecticut Biplane Event this past September and it brought back many memories. This post has me back on my 50% framed up 1 1/2 Strutter...Laser .70 for power. Happy holiday season to all. Regards, George

George,

Thanks for the kind words! It was a fun meet.

Here's a pic (I hope) of my N11 : [img]

It has a Saito .90 twin with a McDaniels OBG and I really enjoy flying it

Whit

Nice looking Nieuport Whitney! Thanks for sharing. Did you use sheet aluminum for the bands on your interplane struts? Did you have to add any extra weight to get it to balance?