Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

I'm not against electrics either. THey have their place in the sub .60 market. I love the fact I can toss my foamie in the seat behind me and go flying just about any time I want.

That being said, I've priced electrics for my large scale stuff. I DON'T buy (or mostly avoid) cheap stuff cause you get what you buy. For my Stuka I was looking at nearly $2000 to get electrics into the bird and that gave me about 7 minutes of flight time if I baby sat the throttle. The 20oz tank I am putting in it will give me at least 30-40 minutes of air time if I want it.


PS: I've seen PLENTY of dead stick landings with my foamies...


Oh and one thing that electrics will never beat... the sound. The sound of the Zenoah GT80 twin is something electrics can never match. I don't want a buzz, I want a roar. Electrics just cannot do that.

KentuckyColonel

Unless you want to pay an additional 2-300 bucks on a sound system in order to make it sound like it would if you had gas to begin with!

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Which only adds yet more weight, or drains the main power even more.

jmohn

The largest electric I have now is a KMP Stuka. The only reason I did this one is I already had the batteries and ESC. I have to agree .60 and smaller are perfect for electrics. The stuka does work great and I get excellent flight times, but I wouldn't do it again. Gas is the way to go on the big stuff. It is nice to not see a cylinder heat sticking out of the cowl, but the conversion can be a nightmare sometimes.


Jeff

kahloq

Well, the only real reason Im doing this CMP ME-109 as electric is because a buddy has the H9 1.50 p-51 setup as electric with an e-flite Power 160 on 12s 5000. My saito 220 powered H9 1.50 P-51 was being left behind quite badly relative to his electric one. The 220 costs $450 or so depending on where you buy it. I thought if I could get an electric power system for that or less, then Id give it go. I did an E-conversion with the kyosho .40 Corsair and it flies very nicely with a huge 3 blade prop....so.......its not the first plane ive converted either.
Here's the component cost for this CMP ME-109

Turnigy 6364 230kv motor: $63
Turnigy 100amp HV esc: $100
Zippy-R 5s 4800 x 2: $99 each
The two batteries are run in series for a 10s 4800 setup

So, $362. A saito 180 can be bought for about that price....so...price wise its a wash. As such, I have to disagree with the arm and a leg cost comparison because it isnt at all. Now, sure, either wait 1 hour for the batts to be recharged using two charges(which I already own anyhow) or buy a 2nd set of batts to fly while the first set is charging....which I also did.
So, you can add $198 if you want to the cost, but, that isnt really part of it to get the plane in the air. $362 is what it'll take.
I do agree in the short term, glow is cheaper to have mutiple flights per day as it costs about $30 for a gallon of 30%. So a saito 180 with 1 gallon of fuel cost is $410, but you can fly several times in one day. However, that gallon wont last all that long and you might get 10-12 flights out of it depending on how well broken in the 180 is and how big a fuel tank is in the plane. Also keep in mind for the cost for the saito 180(or any glow motor) is that you have to break in the motor with at least 2 gallons of fuel before ever flying it(or you should anyhow). So, add another $50 to the cost since one would probably use 15% for the break-in period to keep costs down slightly. So, now we're at $460 for the glow motor option just to get the plane flight ready(not including whatever servo you use for it....so another $20)

So, as I illustrated, it doesnt cost that much to do an electric conversion compared to running a glow motor or gas motor if you know where to buy the stuff from. I can see, obviously, if someone were to buy FLightpower or TP batts, that it would be extremely cost prohibitive for most ppl since a comparable 5s 5000mah TP battery is about $250 each. But, using decent Zippy-R or Zippy-H batts, motor, and esc from Hobbycity considerably lowers the cost. An e-flite 160 costs $170 and a CC 110hv esc would cost about $279 so if you use the BIG name brand stuff, your gonna pay out the nose. But it doesnt have to be done that way and Ive used Turnigy motors/esc's in the past with no problems.

In any case, an electric powered CMP ME-109 is gonna fly A LOT faster then any glow or gas powered setup and fly for about the same amount of time....6-8 mins. I know my KMP ME-109 with a saito 180 in it and an 18oz tank can only fly 7mins before running out of fuel. I know as I had to run the tank dry and deadstick the plane in as the throttle servo linkage crapped out at full throttle.

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

I think your leaving out a few things , good batterys need to be balanced and when stored for the winter stored in full charge and ideally at controlled conditions , in addition they can drain and need to be charged at leaste once per month at leaste this is what the e-flight guys tell me at our field . THen you have the life span of the battery , and ensuring that you test power (just like breaking in a 4 stroke) that you have a full charge and your getting max power . In addition I have seen guys try to save money on batterys only to spend twice as much the second time because the economy batterys dont hold up or provide the power as stated in the ads .
Now again , personally I have nothing against e-flight either and if you look at the CMP P40 conversion and the recent SKYSHARK p40 both posted on RCU , its makes e-flight look very very attractive . My problem is I think its still about 5 years away from -my goal =less weight more power for warbirds . I hate adding any weight at all to a warbird you will see that in every post I ever reply to on RCU . I dont care what the experts say (experts are people no longer willing to learn ) a lighter warbird flys better , and a weekend at the field with a better flying warbird is all I am looking for .

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

And it still sounds like an electric.

War birds don't hum or whine, they roar.

You also don't have to get a Saito, which we all know tend to be expensive. Go with a small gasser for $199 or so, and it becomes a LOT cheaper and even better sounding than the Saito.
I know my Moki powered H9 P-51 easily got 15 minute flights and that was with Glow. I usually landed with a little less than 1/4 of a tank when I was up for 15 minutes. If I had gone gas, it would have been a lot longer flights and a lot more gas left in the can.

That being said, the CMP Bf109 is a bit small for me, I build bigger. Electrics just can't do large scale as well as gas can.

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

I have a CMP P-51 with an outrunner from Nitroplanes. The .46 size motor 80amp esc and 18.2 5s 15c lipo cost me around $220.00

It yielded a marginal flight for around 4 min, with around 3 min of decent flight. The motor was drawing less amps than what it was rated for with a 12x6 @7,600rpm , so i didn't push its limits. The Batts take 75 min to charge. I'm just posting data and have drawn no conclusion at this point.

I haven't given up yet on electrics.

i have learned that the battery "c" ratings are a bit "pumped up" and impact the performance and battery price quite a bit.

I have 2 Nova/Rossi rear exhaust 60 engines that can put in this P-51 and make it very fast, hidden in the cowl, but these engines hard to get cheap unless you get lucky on ebay

Steve

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Steve I have one of thoase Rossi 60 Twins. Interesting little engines.

kahloq

If you've heard the H9 1.50 P-51 with an e-flite 160 in it, you might change your mind some. It isnt quiet and it sounds decent. But, not like a glow motor. I never said soemone had to use saito. I specifically stated "or whatever glow/gas motor you want". I used the saito just as a cost comparison since those are well known engines(OS arent that much cheaper if at all....magnums are though).
I also never tried to convince anyone that electrics is BETTER. I described WHY im doing this plane the way I am. I also simply showed that it doesnt cost an arm and a leg to do it. Period.
Sure, some cheaper batts are not up to par, but these Zippy-R packs are very well rated and you can get some bad packs even from the name brand stuff.

As far as a small gasser sounding better then a saito? Not even close. Weed wacker esque 2 stroke gas motors dont sound good at all except at idle. The MOKI 2.10 sounds decent on the ground and with the right exhaust, sounds ok in the air, but still has that high WHINE at high throttle rpms. yes I said whine...same term you used for the electric. 2 strokes cannot sound like a real airplane motor....a 4 stroke can sound closer sure, but still not the same unless using something like a MOKI 150cc to 400cc radial.

Again, im not saying electrics is better, not saying glow or gas is better or even 2 or 4 strokes are better then something else. They all have their uses and some ppl prefer certain aspects of their setup over others. No worries. Use what you want.

As a note, I own considerably more 4 stroke motors then i do electrics in larger planes such as this CMP ME-109. I have only 1 electric converted plane aside from this ME-109. The other 10 or so. 60 size and larger are powered by 4 strokes...and all but one are saito's. Only because I am familar with saito.

KentuckyColonel

To be honest, as long as it's a warbird, and in the air, I'm going to like it. And with a bigger electric motor, you can get a decent sound off the prop......but, I'm a fuel guy, and although I haven't got one yet, I do want to get a nice plane powered by a gas engine. Even if it sounds like a weed whacker!

kahloq

Oh I agree with you as well. Im not an electric guy really. I do want a larger warbird at some point and will not really really a choice. A gas motor would be needed and most of them are 2 stroke weed wacker sounding. Now, if saito made say a 400 size 4 stroke(gas or glow) that would be awesome. As it is, no one makes a larger 4 stroke single cylinder gas motor then the 220FG36 saito that i know of. I really want an ME-109 at 100"+
OS does make a 300 quad, but thats not gonna fit in an ME-109 cowl

jmohn

I did the maiden flight of my buddies H9 150 P51D with a Power 160 on a 12S setup. It flew great and sounded good to until another gas plane took off The setup was perfect and it flew fast and was easy to handle. I still think I would go with a gas motor setup in anything that large. I love electrics and have three 60 sized, two 90 sized and one 120 size conversion planes. Electrics are getting better everyday, but so are the gas motors. I think it's about even on which one is more cost effective. Another up side to the gas motors is you can have smoke


Jeff

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Evil

They are powerful little things.

You must have the Black head Rossi engines.

Back to the 109.

I'm preping my Leading edges for slats.

Steve

KentuckyColonel

Anyone post a video of this thing in the air yet?

Oosiksmith

My Feedback: (1)

Pictures, Steve, we need pictures.....just in case we need to copy you! That seems to be the M O for this plane; we're all waiting to see which motor is stuck in and if anyone is brave enough to come up with the procedures to make the Sierra KMP gear fit. I guess you are the test bunny for the slats.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Yep, black with all brass screws and connectors. Its a wonderful looking engine.

No clue what I am going to do with it though (I have all the original stuff for it too, including those very unusual mufflers (not the rectangle ones, the better round ones) as it is just too small for any of my planes!

kahloq

got some work done on the plane today

All switches, air fill chuck,retract air valve, shunt switch, etc are all contained in the cowl area. The chin piece will be removeable of course and held on with with a good deal of rare earth magnets(perferable) or screws like shown on the box.
The rx battery is all the way up right under the motor itself. It is a 2700mah 6v nimh. I am thinking about using 2 of these considering the amount of servos that will be in the plane. I will wait till the plane is done and checking balance to see whether I need to put it up front like the other one is.
Although it would be nice to be able to change batteries without removing the wing, my batteries are quite big and putting them up in the chin area wouldnt work and I wasnt so keen on cutting such large holes through the rear bulkhead where the ESC is mounted on in roder to slide them in and out through the chin.
I am sure Coastwatcher on RCGROUPS will decide to do that though.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

What are you doing for the ESC cooling?

Is the location of the receiver going to have issues due to all the EMF around it from the motor and the ESC?

j.e. johnson

Hi Kahloq,

I have been lurking but not posted here yet. That looks great but I have a suggestion....

I have cut the inlet to the chin scoop out on mine and the ESC (I have the same one as you) will fit flat in that area such that ram air will cool it. I am going to cut a scale exhaust slot at the back of the chin scoop and dremel a slot in the firewall for the air to pass through the firewall. I am going to glue some t-nuts to the scoop and mount the ESC on screws to this with rubber supports to keep it in the airflow and clear of the scoop bottom.

I have trial fitted it all and it will work.


What receiver are you using? I am on spectrum too but I would be a bit nervous about putting it in the nose with all that current and bulk. I was planning to fit mine in the wing with the remote receiver in the fuse.

kahloq

Its a 2.4ghz JR rx, so no EMF wont be an issue, however, I will be installing a 36" remote extension in the 2nd plug on the main rx though just to be safe.

The chin scoop will be opened up where the stupid black fake sticker is. This will blow air directly on the esc and is the reason i put the esc where it is. I noticed JE Johnson replied before I was able to submit this post so this answers his questions

I am still working on getting more throughput for air from the front area to the battery compartment to expel as much air as possible. I will also attempt to make the dummy exhaust stacks functional(to the point of opening them up to allow air to get out).
The esc is not blocking any stock hole in the bulkhead either so its not covering anything plus I drilled addtional holes in that bulkhead...one is directly behind the esc and one to the left of it.

vertical grimmace

My Feedback: (1)

Kahlog, When is the maiden? I want to be there. Let me know as I am interested in this plane. Oh and by the way, You are all wrong, I will be putting a miniature nuclear reactor in mine! I will be able to fly as long as I want and might be able to hit Warp! : )

SCALECRAFT

My Feedback: (13)

Vertical, with nuke power you can fly at night!

Pics to come on the slats and other modifications/corrections.

Steve

kahloq

Ill let you know. Still trying to figure out retracts, but while waiting on something for that, Im trying to get most of the rest of the plane done. I am hoping it will be ready at least a couple weeks before Warbirds over the Rockies so i can test fly it and get a few flights to become comfortable with it.
If it flies like my electric Kyosho Corsair, it will be a lot of fun, I just hope I get longer flight times then 5 mins. I am hoping to see at least 7 mins with a little to spare and this with it mostly at 3/4 throttle. If I have to keep chopping the throttle back just to conserve batts, then its not that much fun and if all i get is 5 mins, then I may consider buying a 2nd CMP ME-109 and putting that saito 200TI in it, although I'd rather get a bigger plane instead of a duplicate.

Evil_Merlin

My Feedback: (13)

Be aware, EMF can still be an issue. I've watched a Ziroli P-51 go from 100 foot to 0 foot in a few seconds. THe interference caused by the elecronic ignition did in fact mess with the 2.4 GHz radio installed.

Now mind you I'm not sure that the ESC to battery & motor connections could cause that type of EMF, but I've seen bad things happen.