With a couple of mixes, it's knife edge is great. I have recently added a little up thrust and the hover is awesome. I am working on the torque roll. Hoping to really dial it in and translate to Giant Scale stuff.
It is a plane that flies well, not crashes well. I have not run it in, but it is built light.
Lately the best flights are with the Kokam 340 pack, back as far as you can in the compartment. Good for about 5 min. The only other pack I have tried is the Apogee 860 and flight time is really great at about 15 min.


Derek

Apogee 830 not 860

I just now got done flying my new hell raiser( great x-mas present)and i have a few Q's for anyone that is experienced with the hell raiser. I cant seem to get the C.G. back far enough to get a hover right. Im running a thunder power 1320 mah it fits right in there very nice but it wont move back far enogh for my taste, any tips. other than that it harriers very nicely and flys very slow and it is an all around great plane.

Dear Mike,

First, great plane [sm=thumbup.gif]! We just had our maiden on my sons Hell Raiser... what a blast! Two clicks on the elevator and she was trimmed perfectly. I have a few engineering thoughts you might want to consider... and some comments about the Hobby Lobby site setup.

First, we ordered all the goodies that HL recommended. This was our first electric foamie, so we assumed it would all be there based on the ARF Nitro kits we have put together. There are several items that required an extra trip to the LHS to complete the material list:

1. Foam Freindly Spray Adheasive.
2. Hinge Tape.
3. Wheels (2 inch)
4. M3 x 10 mm Button Head Screws (motor mounting).
5. Tail Skid. (Dubro #853)
6. 5 minute epoxy.

If you want builders to really have all they need, these items should appear on the recommended buy list that comes up. You might want to get them to add this stuff on the webpage and/or include them in the accessory kit. It's real frustrating for the novice builder to hit the wall during a build like that (on Christmas day ).

Second, a few comments you might consider to improve the instructions, kit and design.

a. We were not pleased to glue our servos into the cabane. Everywhere else, they screw mount (nice). We fasioned a double tee bracket from popsicle sticks with mounting surfaces that sandwich the cabane and allow screw-mounting. See photo. It's really tough, and adds that little touch of class. I'm sure with a little thought, you could put these parts, or variations of them, in the ply panel. They are very small and add very little weight. We left the lower half of the cutout between the servos, and did not use double-sided tape. For those using a single servo, you could still drop out the center piece, and put screw holes on the centerline for that install option too.

b. The battery mounting is very vague. You do not define the recommended install location very well, and the only surface worthy of battery velcro is the side wall. We put it there on the sidewall, as the ply section does not provide any flat surface to adheare to. It warps the fuse wall when you do that. A good photo of the recommeded location of the RX, ESC and Battery would really help people out a lot. We placed the RX where you said, then had to move it forward because the wires from the recommended ESC were too short to reach the battery compartment (all stock hardware as recommended).

c. When we installed the ply front structure, there was no tabs in the very front of the front fuse panel to position it. Ours was just a smidge off (high maybe 3/32 inch) on the first step (step 10), so when we rolled the other side over and glued it (step 11), there ended up being a twist and bow in the fuse. You don't even notice it till the glue is all set up and you can eyeball the lines. It seems to fly okay, but there is concern that this error will be detrimental as we become more proficient at flying precision stuff. Once you discover this error, you can't undo it and make it right. Some tabs on the very front would prevent this problem.

d. We can't get the CG back far enough. The bulkhead won't allow moving the battery any further rearward. Suggest you provide a battery mounting surface that allows the battery to pass into the second compartment for those that want to dial-in the CG or play with tail-heavy conditions.

e. HL recommends air scoops. We bought them, but have no idea where to put them. Do we need them? Your instructions don't even mention installing these things. Either have HL take them off the site, or give us instruction on location and cutouts.

f. Creating hinges from tape is a trick I learned way back in my control-line days. So, we knew how to do it, but your instructions don't address it at all. You might want to show the proper way to fabricate and install them.

g. You may want to consider putting a warning everywhere you apply the thin CA. We accedentally dribbled a little on some foam and found that it ate it up instantly. When you are making the control links, one slip and you have big messy holes in your model.

h. Everywhere you say "glue it", but you don't make it clear with which glue. We found the foam-safe CA that came in the kit would take hours to set in some cases. We reverted to using 5-minute epoxy everywhere, which seems to make a really super bond and beefy jounts.

I hope this doesn't sound picky, and you see it in the light we do. Maybe the experienced foamie builders have all this knowledge, but I'm sure there are a number of customers scratching thier heads like we did. I am an engineer, so I look for perfection in design. You have an awesome product here... don't get me wrong. I can tell from this thread you are improving the design, so I thought I would throw in my two cents. My son's is flying and we are starting to build mine now . The second one will be way better. This thing rocks!

Best regards,

I also bought and installed the air scoops because they reccomended them. I have since taken them off and filled foam back in. They are worthless.

Just fill the back half of the plywood with velcro and place it as far back as you can. It works great on 830 and 340 pack. Best on 340. If your pack is too big, you may need to cut out some ply, or if it was mine I would stick with the smaller packs. I have not tried a 1320 but I think they are way off reccomending it.

Also, I chose the 1 aileron servo and glued it in. It was a TS-5 that was not good enough. I had to pull it out and it wasn't that big of a deal. I filled in the cabane support and put one HS-55 in the middle of the bottom wing underneath by gluing a ply piece just like the other servos. Works great. And added some micro dubro hardware and adjustments can be easily made.

Derek

Everyone is recomending really small batteries like the Apogee 860. I am running on a thunder power 1320 3s my hell raiser runs freakin great. Is it easier to adjust the C.G. with a smaller batt, another thing is that it would be kinda boring with such a small battery because of such short flight times. can any body help me decide wether i should get one for the heck of it?

Tyler

Thunder 860 mah

or

Kokam 340 mah

Thunder 860 mah

I posted building notes on rcgroups.com as well.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=315529

I'm flying with an AXI2208/34, TP1350, and 2 aileron servos. Flies great (although I'm a 3d beginner) and has a lot of power. The latest kit includes a double firewall, and recommends taping the sides of the fuse.

If you want to experiment with radical cg's I guess a smaller bat pack would allow that without tearing into the fuse. But the vid's I've seen of ProBoone flying 3d using TP1350's makes me believe radical cg's aren't necessary.

Hobby Lobby is still recommending the air scoops but I don't see the need...
Clark

For all those flying this with the recommended hardware from HL, set your Jeti controller to HARD TIMING... it is recommended for the AXI motor, and boy this thing must have 15-20% more thrust now... hard to judge, but hover was around 3/4 throttle, now it hovers at just about 1/2 stick! (using the TP1350, AXI 2208/34).

I guess Mike is busy. He has not commented on our build comments and suggestions. We had to built a third, after TylerMan (my maniac 3D son) splattered his into a heap of twisted crap when he got too cocky. We are getting this build down to a science. It takes about 16 hours to do it right. We have done MANY mods to make the build WAY better. We still stuggle with getting the fuse straight... my biggest beef. Every one gets a little better.

New problem to watch for in flight... I see a "twist" in the top wing at moderatly high speeds, where the leading edge on one side catches the wind and dives and rocks the top wing out of position. When you have this happening, drop the throttle and it will let go and fly right. When it happens, the ailerons won't make the plane respond to roll commands. It took mine in, and it looks like it is due to the weak center cabane, allowing the top wing to twist on the Yaw axis.

We have a new tweak that makes the cabane and wing really tight and this twist almost non-existant. Just take an ice-cream stick and pierce the top wing all the way into the fuse following the back edge of the cabane. Cut to flush on top, and let it go into the fuse 1/4". Then, epoxy the hellraiser out of it. This reduces the top wing twist about 80%. The only way to do it better is to put in more criss-crossing flying wires.

Just got done building my 2nd Hell Raiser and i bought a thunder power 730 mah to go along with it. I thought that this plane flew good with a 1320 but dang!!!!!! it hovers and pulls out of the hover alot faster than it did before makes it about an ounce and a quarter lighter. I would recomend getting a batt this size to anyone who wants more performance out of their hell raiser. you get about 6-7 min. flights on the 730.

Tyler

TManici,

As for your building comments I sent similar ones to Mike, I do disagree with a couple issues. I also am allergic to glueing a servo into place for the kaban, so I used strapping tape to hold it in. I think some of your wing twisting is being caused because your mods keep getting heavier and heavier and your flying with a 1320. You should really try an Appogee 830 in this like Mike recommends and get your weight back down. Mine is sitting at 10.5 AUW. I love it.

Larry

Larry,

I felt that the mods were adding too much weight too, but the mods are very minor as weight goes. I think we are talking about 0.25 oz's on mods! That's nothing. Yea, that heavy battery is probably part of the problem, but I make these comments because anyone buying the Hellraiser from Hobby Lobby is probably buying that battery for it, because it is recommended there.

I want to know how you get all the way down to 10.5 oz AUW though [sm=thumbup.gif]. My son's bare-unmodified plane with a TP760 weighs in at about 12.8 oz, and 14.0 oz with the TP1320. There is a huge differnece here. It flies like a bat-out-of-hellraiser on the 1320, and a noticably better on the 760 with half the fly-time. There is a disconnect here somewhere. Let's fuigure this weight thing out... did you do anything to lighten the structure?

Hi All,
Sorry I haven't been able to keep up with your thread. I took a vaction, had my computer crap-out and I'm now busy making kits to catch up with orders.

Thanks for your comments on the kit. Your words don't land on deaf ears!
I have made some improvements on the model that reflect many modelers comments.

I started out on my Ultimate 3D ( HellRaiser is just the print scheme on the plane) as an indoor model so weight was everything. As tests progressed it proved itself to be a good outdoor flyer as well.

The first models were coming in at 9oz AUW but as it was flown more and more outdoors it was necessary to add ply structures, landing gear and more carbon and the weight climbed.

You walk the fine line between performance and durability and I think I have done that.

As for what Hobby-Lobby recommends. I have no say in that. They know what I recommend and we have different views on the subject and I respect that.

Kit changes to date: I have increased the size of the opening in the ply landing gear former to allow the 1320 cells to pass through and be fastened with Velcro to the side of the fuse as well as the doubled firewall.

I'm trying to address the high speed wing twist problem. I have no problem with it myself as it was designed to be flown slow and thats how I fly mine,but now I make them for you guy and I will fix the problem!

The planes C.G. and hovering. I like the smaller cells to get the C.G. right for how I like the plane to feel and hover easier, But I have seen guys with 1900s up in the nose of the plane and had it real nose heavy hover the thing like its nothing. There are some very talented pilots out there!

I'm glad so many guys are enjoying the plane and hope I can to design kits that are as well receive as this one is!

Thank you to all,
Mike Glass
www.horseflyhobbies.com

Hey Mike, hope you had a nice vacation.

I have not seen it anywhere, including your own site. What is the recommended setup (hardware list) and what should it weigh with that setup? What are the variables that may make the weights inconsistent? We need a goal... and reason to question our builds. In three planes, our AUW varied from 13.8 to 14.6 ozs (all with TP1320 and other parts the same). This is a long way from the weights others boast... should we question the accuracy of their scales? 0.8 oz variation sounds minute, but that is really significant (nearly 6%) when the only variable I can see is how much epoxy we use from one to the next.

I have to say, even at these apparently high weights, the plane performs extremely well. Fairly agressive climb out of a hover, and hovering just over half stick. I can only imagine how much better it would be to shed 2-3 ozs.

Regarding the wing twist... I assume you have seen this if you are trying to address it. I know, I am flying it too fast, but as a novice to 3D, it gets away from you now and then, particularly on down-line exits. That's how I munched mine, coming out of an inverted flat spin. If this happens in a dive, cutting the throttle is not enough to offset the aceleration of the dive. When it happens, control seems to be very latent and unresponsive.

After the repairs, I saw it twist again flying level and straight away from me at low altitude. It was weird to see the top wing contorted all out of place. That's why I added the stiff vertical member to the back of the cabane. That was a good fix, but probably not as good as a second set of crossing fly wires to box in the wings. I didn't have any extra CF rods, nor was there a good anchor point for a second set towards the rear of the lower wing. It flies again, but with a good bit of fibertape. As many have said, this plane does not crash well... but that's the tradeoff for lightweight and great performance. We just gotta learn to be better than gravity.

Kudos on a great aircraft... keep up the good work. We tell everyone what a great ship it is, and go buy one!

TManiac,

I think some of the weight issue maybe in the glue. I tried using safe CA and it did not work at all, so I switched to GWS glue. It is like contact cement but drys hard and much lighter than epoxy. I am almost out of it, so if anyone knows of a replacement without buying a GWS plane to get it, I would be very interested. The only epoxy on the kit is on the landing gear and firewall. I also added a steerable tail wheel that I really like. And of course an 830 Appogee pack.

I must not be pushing this as hard as you because I am getting longer flights (again could be the weight). I use a 10 X 3.8 APC slow flight it will pull 9 amps and 20 oz of thrust. I only use a single aileron servo HS-55, Electron-6 receiver with case removed and CC 10 esc. I am going to recheck my weight tonight, just to be sure I am not misleading you.

Larry

Thanks for the help Larry.

I went back thru this thread, and many are reporting weights in my class (around 14 oz). I have a hard time believing that the glue is at fault, but... I have been wrong before . We did use epoxy on every joint. I tried several glues, but none of them "stick" as well as the epoxy. It's not like I have gobs running everywhere... we screeded off all the excess and wiped inside joints to leave small fillets for a nice look. Yea, it was probably overkill, but it won't come apart for sure.

We are getting great flight times too, well over 15 minutes unless you go all out 3D. Even at that, it still goes well over 10 minutes. I think if I just cruse, which I can't make myself do [>:], it would likely go 20 minutes.

We are running dual aileron servos (adds 0.28 oz), and taped the fuse (one strip along the bottom edge full length on both sides). I built up the center cabane, but I didn't even use a whole ice-cream stick for that. I just weighed a whole stick, and it won't even register on a quality scale with 0.1 oz resolution. I really am in a quandry. I am beginning to think the published weights are understated (with my setup) and the claims of 10-11 oz planes are not right because people are using cheesy scales or just guessing.

If I ever build another one (which I probably will), I will weigh all the cut-out parts before I do anything. That will answer this question once-and-for-all...

Can't wait to hear how yours weighs in...

Sorry, I misreported before. It is 11.6 oz AUW. I think I will post a question on the general forum to see if I can direct you to a better glue.

Larry

In "speed dives" my HR will roll right pretty severely. Backing off the throttle and getting the nose up restores control. Scared me pretty bad the first time it happened since I fly in my cul-de-sac surrounded by 2 story houses. :O I don't blame the plane design though; it was clear I flew my lightweight plane out of its envelope. I was thinking that maybe it was that 10x3.8 slow prop bending under the stress (I can't see it with my own eyes of course). I'll watch the wings next time to see if its the wing twisting.

Clark

TManiaci (my dad) did the popsical stick thing to stengthen the cabane on my new hell raiser (the old one hit the ground and was too messed up to fix and ever fly again) and even in extreme, high G, 3D flying the wing doesnt twist and make it unresponsive. On my other hell raiser we did not build up the cabane and it had a twisting top wing in higher speed rolls and turns. I had a minor crash with my new plane a couple of days ago(i am A LITTLE more radical with my plane than my dad) but it is all well and flying great again after about 1 hour worth of repairs.

I didn't time my build, but it was in the neighborhood of 16-18 hours, largely because it takes forever for the foam safe CA to dry. I took it out for it's maiden and that's where it gets ugly, partially because I was in a hurry to get it in the air. I have the TP 1320 pack so the CG was way off (even with the battery all the way back). I figured I'd fool around with it and address the CG later. I first took it up and it flew like a champ I was actually amazed at how well it flew (so were the people at the dog park). But I started getting comfortable with it and that's when disaster struck. We all know nose heavy planes like to descend when not under power, well I was doing some low level inverted passes and didn't give it enough down elevator, it headed for the ground, I panicked and dumb thumbed it into the ground nose first. The fuselage isn't that bad, but from the wing forward it's a mess (you know broken pieces of plywood and foam etc..) I immediately ordered another one and figure I can cut some time out building it because I'll be using epoxy more often, I have some CA accelerator now, and all of the soldering is done. I was just wondering how it flies with the correct CG, it has to be great. I can honestly say that was the best flying plane I have ever flown, even if it was only for ten minutes.

Hey Drugtester (what a name... you stoner)

Watch out with that CA Accellerator. It eats foam. Try a test shot on some scrap. We tried it and it made mush of the foam intantly.

What do you mean the cg is way off using the 1320 battery? I'm using a TP 1350 battery and the cg is adjustable between 3 and 3.5" just as described in the manual without having to move the battery through any bulkheads.

Unless you mean that recommended cg range is non-optimal. It does take a lot of down elevator to hold level inverted flight. Has anyone found a cg spot that balances the plane upright and inverted with no elevator input? (I've been waiting for this answer in my own thread for days now...)

Clark

Got some flying in today. Looks like a 3.5" cg will give you pitch neutral flight. Zero elevator trim for level flight upright or inverted. I was flying in my cul-de-sac so I didn't get to try anything more aggressive. Can't wait to try hovers and harriers at this new cg!

BTW, I can get this cg just by sliding my TP 1350 pack all the way to the rear of the nose compartment. It still lies horizontal and I didn't need to pass it through any bulkheads. Looks like Mike Glass really did his homework on this design.

Clark

TManiaci,

I'm not a stoner, lol. I'm a forensic chemist, so I test drugs (with instruments) for a living, hence drugtester.

I don't know how anyone got the CG correct without moving the battery farther back, mine was all the way against the back part of the bulkhead/motor mount assembly and it balanced about 1 3/4" to 2" from the LE of the top wing.

Matt