I want something different on my agwagon, as if its already different.If the tips dont seem to do any differ I can always try standard. although I did like the way it looked with no wing tips.
thnaks for the encurage ment, The test flight is goign to tbe run with stock 3 inch wheels, not 5-6 inch monster truck wheels,lol, If theses dont work i have some other wing tips to try, ill take a picture,
P.S. I made my wingtips screw on so Ican replace, or put on new wing tips .thank god I Decided to do this!!

Well, if all you want is something a little different then you may want to try these. This is sort of a poor man's Hoerner tips that I've seen used and used myself over the years. They are dirt simple and may just fit the bill for what you are trying to do here.

Take a block of square balsa that is as deep as your tip airfoil and slice it at 45 degrees. Keep it square until the angle is shaped so they don't end up out of kilter (there's those tech terms again... ) Now glue, or in your case, mark and drill the holes to fit your wingtips. Now shape the blocks so they blend flush with the airfoil top and bottom. Tape over the finish on the wing so it doesn't get marked during the shaping and sanding. Now glue on the swoopy looking tip plates and match them up to the blocks. This will give you some 45 degree tips that either tilt up or down.

So, which way? Down will hold the air in under the tips better during landings but have an adverse dihedral effect. The upturned tips will provide a bit of diherdral rolling action that may sharpen up a snap roll. But either one should have a little less disturbance to the tip flow thanks to only being on the one side and the more open angle that the plate meets the rest of the airfoil.

And they look pretty darn good too.....

Im sorry ,BMatthews , My internet provider is having problems latley and wont open thumbnails,can you email it to me, thank you, from what i can see ftom the small picture, it looks unique, something to put on the agwagon it performance dosnt improve.

well guys, the tips were never tested the plane crashed on take off??????

Dago:

Very sorry.

Do you know why? If you don't please describe the whole thing, maybe we can all learn from your misfortune.

Never seen one that could not be repaired, but I have seen damage to the point that replacement was easier.

Don't know if I told you about it, my first major crash in years was in that total trash category, (High speed inverted pass, ran out of down elevator) but I didn't throw anything out. And I just started the repair.

Your twin has had its very first crash,
. this is the time to do that bash.

Bill.

Ok, heres my description from taxi to takeoff.
I taxied to the center of the runway. I gave it the throttle to start rolling, once she was rolling i gave about 3/4 throttle, she lifted off, so i gave the rest 1/4 throttle and procided to make a left hand turn away from the field, she seemed to procide for a second then made a huge right hand turn sight in to the ground hitting the wing first busting it in to 2 major pices with about 30 splinters. the fus was crashed behind the wing with the wing hold down ripped out, broke the prop and left a deep hole in the runway. Every one likes how I crash, on the runway so we can see the pieces fly. It broke off one wing tip, do you think wing tips have somthing to do with it, ever since I put custom wing tips on it seem to do strange things on takeoff. the firewall is still in plane,lol. ill take some pics and post them.
not sure what is wrong with it, but im starting to think its the wing tips, need to by those $30 wingtips for it.

here

again

last for now

OUCH.....


Sorry to see that DR. There's no doubt that the style of plate tips you have used so far are a destabilizing force. Even the stock Hoerner tips would have been a slightly destabilizing influence but the model was apparently able to handle them.

I would say that despite how it looks you can fix it but it's going to pick up some weight which will tend to make it even more touchy for stalls and all. But it would make a good test bed for experiments.

I'll still send you that jpg on the tips for the next one.

Dago:

I've done worse, looks repairable, even if half the wing is new construction.

Confirm: She rolled right out of a left turn? If yes I would dismiss any aerodynamic cause.

Give the radio gear a very close inspection, the bits have had a somewhat hard life. If a glitch gave you hard right rudder that could be the cause.

And I'd hate to think the tip plates did it, especially since I told you to try them.

Ideas, Bruce?

Check everything, Dago, let us know.

I may be totally a dunce,
. but I don't think it could spin both ways at once.

Bill.

Ideas? Well I think a lot has to do with this quote....

How much time did this turn take and what were you doing on the controls when it happened? If it took more than a second and nothing you did seemed to help then I'd suspect radio problems too.

DR, what sort of rough life has this set had in the past?

Ahha, accellerated stall, aggravated by adverse yaw at low speed with the nose heavy condition. I think you got so wrapped up in the wingtip thing you never got around to addressing the underlying Cg situation (see post 3, etal). No radio problems here whatsoever.

I think a lot depends here on how long that "huge right turn" took to execute. All the CG aggravated responses I can think of would take place in not much more than the blink of an eye.

Not saying you're wrong but I think we need more info to judge properley.

Try right clicking the thumbnail and you should see the first item is "open link". If that doesn't take you to the full size pic I'll email the file to ya.

open link dosnt work either.
I cant tell you how much time it took place, happened to fast, I will add this, last weekend, it did the same thing, but I was able to save it. Im thinkin a accellerated stall , seems to fit it perfect, and yet again the wing tips get me, maybe radio, or all of the above.
The life of this agwagon is different, I'll start from the begining.
I had a agwagon before this one, 5-6 fligth it crashed due to radio failure, so I got another from a friend that he had laying around, and bought one from tower hobbies scratch and dent.
The one from tower hobbies was missing a wing section,I had that wing section which was almost in perfect shape from the first agwagon. so I put that agwagon toghether, and she sat for about 4 months as a back up agwagon, then the 2nd agwagon had a small mess up on it, there for I readied the 3rd agwagon for flight, first engine was a ST .51. After a while I upgraded it to a .70 4 stroke. flew good, but had bad torque problems,had a crash due to that on a take off, ripped out the firewall. made a new firewall and put some side thrust to it, but it seems that its starting to have these problems again, after the mod wing tips. I crashed it another time about 4 weeks ago , same thing. repared it, flew it, and it flew great, other than one tip over one take off, which I thought was over for the plane. now we are at the last crash on it.
thats the history on this agwagon, it is quite rough. The original tips are not for stability, are aerodinamics, but to keep the chemicls on the real agwagon from rolling back around on to the plane, info I got from a old ag pilot.
Hope we can figure this out.
Ill say the take off again was a normal take off, but as i made a left hand turn, which it made ever so slightly, it suddenly went to the right, over in to the ground. very spectacular, basla flying every where.

Well, in that case.......

Thud_Driver, I bow to you oh Great Omniprescient One....

DR, did you ever do anything about the wagon being way too nose heavy? If not then we may be chasing a non issue about the wingtips. Granted the tips may have added to the issue but it may be a bit hard to figure things out at this point.

Some models are just murder. I tried helping a father and son with a Piper Cub ARF one time. That model was the most spin prone POS that I have ever had the misfortune to fly. Balance and washout looked good but it would just stall and drop a tip into a terrible spin at the drop of a hat. Even from level flight unless the speed was somewhere around Mach 1.5.

I think we have a problem, I was going to put some weights in the tail yet forgot. I think I murdered my plane. OH MY GOD. now i feel very stupid. in slow flight or fast though it flew striaght and level, but in aerobatics, with the right onditions it would try to flat spin.

I think this is coming down to stupidity and fault on my part.lol, o well, Im learning somthin out of this.

If it was close to stall speed when you made the turn,could be adverse yaw,as mentioned above. Only cure for that is differential ailerons where the up aileron goes up about twice as high as the down aileron. Does it have a flat bottom wing?

She was humming pretty good, its not a flat bottom. its almost perfect on each side.
each aileron had the same up and down i guess is how i would put it,lol.

Adverse yaw is seldom an issue with powered models and the usually lower aspect ratios. What happened here sounds much more like a very agravated stall and snap roll.

DR, don't jump to conclusions. The forward CG may have been a contributor to the overall problem but it may not have been the only issue.

How did the other Agwagon fly? Did you ever check to be sure the wings were totally flat from center to tip? Or better yet, had a little bit of washout? That's where the tips have a couple of degrees of trailing edge up angle compared to the center section. Makes for less tendency to tip stall. Is there enough of the wing left to check for this?

Thats probably not it then. How does your radio range check with and without the engine running. Possible vibration interference problem. Sorry to hear about your misfortune. Do you have an old hacker to run your engine and radio in before you try it in a good plane?

the first agwagon flew great, it didnt have any problems at all. not even torquing over with that .70. Im figuring the nose weight is playing a factor, but , well the wing is to torn up to be able to tell, Ill see what I can do. hum
flypaper had a good point about the ailerons but they were equal. im not to sure what he has in mind about my wing ,but I hope he says, he might have a idea in mind.
I think nose heavy, wing tips, and maybe speed has somethin to do with it.

Adverse yaw is when the drag from the down traveling aileron causes the plane to yaw away from the bank so the plane looks like it's crabbing in the turn. It shows up mostly with sailplanes and their long, high aspect ratio wings. It's really not a big deal with power models. And even at it's worst it won't cause a spin or snap roll.

How did the weight of this Wagon compare with the other one? I'm wondering if you have a higher wing loading than the first one?

I'm still kind of suspecting that the wing may have had a bad twist in it. If not then I guess we're back to the nose heavy thing.

Um, what sort of shape does the leading edge of this wing have compared to the other one that flew well? If the leading edge is shaped sharper on this one then we may have another clue.