I'm a renegade![>:] About one year ago I let my AMA membership expire. The day after, I went and flew at the local dry lake bed where other renegades and I gather. Believe it or not, after taking off the sky did not come crashing down and the world did not come to an end. It actually turned out to be uneventful. Where we fly we abide by gentleman's rules which revolves around common sense. It is not regulated and all know there is an element of risk ie. an errant plane into a car or finger prop strike or possibly even worse. We know that risk and assume responsiblity for our actions. For those of you that don't know it, that same risk is present at an AMA field, but with far greater regulatory rules to follow.

I'm now in the process of building a turbine powered job which leads me to the point I wanted to make. In my opinion, by putting more regulations in place for turbine guys does not increase safety. It only keeps new people out of that segment of the hobby or forces people to do as I do and be a renegade. I already disagree with the "turbine waiver" (my turbine waiver is on a square of Charmin toilet paper), but if I flew at a AMA field I would get one and renew my membership(against my rathers). However, with the new regulations being put into effect I would shy away from it and continue to be a renegade as I believe others will do (already three where I fly). This segment of the hobby is going to grow no matter what and the AMA can't stop it regardless of the restrictions. Simply put, people will make their own flying fields or break the rules.

Oh well, thought I would relate my opinion and watch the firestorm. Hehe

[sm=thumbup.gif] All right...That a boy. The sport needs more like minded. May blue skies and calm air be ahead for you.

BTW Welcome to RCU AMA.

Glad you have the ability to do so.....


As for the other 98% of the country, we dont have "Dry Lake Beds" and must insure our land owners

Do you think any one cares, Fly and enjoy the hobby , Rules were made to be broken. All we can do is fly safe and watch each other. RC OUTLAW .Just think you made use what we are!!!!!!!!!!

You have a gentleman's agreement and agree to assume the risk now, can't wait to hear about your gentleman's agreement after Joe apartment dweller with no renters liability insurance does $1000 worth of damage to Johnny Vette's nice new car and can't afford to write a check to cover the repairs.

Check out http://www.unitedmodelers.com/ For $45.00 you have coverage for turbine without having to go through the waiver redtape.

nascarjoe

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You have a gentleman's agreement and agree to assume the risk now, can't wait to hear about your gentleman's agreement after Joe apartment dweller with no renters liability insurance does $1000 worth of damage to Johnny Vette's nice new car and can't afford to write a check to cover the repairs.
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Well, like I said before, I know what the risk is as soon as I drive to the field. I know there is a possibility my vehicle or myself will become an unwilling target of some errant plane and the owner of said aircraft might have difficulty fixing the damage. Therefore, I would not be so stupid as to drive a corvette or such to the flying field. If I did however and it got hit I would chock it up to "S%#t happens" and attempt a comprehensive claim with the car insurance company or fix it myself. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I am aware of the risk, accept it, live with it, and continue to fly my model (soon to be turbine). So, now you don't have to "wait and here" about my gentleman's agreement................happy! Heh Heh!

well said[sm=thumbup.gif] We need more like you! Keep it coming.

Well, like I said before, I know what the risk is as soon as I drive to the field. I know there is a possibility my vehicle or myself will become an unwilling target of some errant plane and the owner of said aircraft might have difficulty fixing the damage. Therefore, I would not be so stupid as to drive a corvette or such to the flying field. If I did however and it got hit I would chock it up to "S%#t happens" and attempt a comprehensive claim with the car insurance company or fix it myself. I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I am aware of the risk, accept it, live with it, and continue to fly my model (soon to be turbine). So, now you don't have to "wait and here" about my gentleman's agreement................happy! Heh Heh!
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Actually, I am happy and find your attitude to be quite enlightened and refreshing, assuming responsibility for your own actions, are you sure you live in the '90's. However, my experience has been that yours is a minority opinion and that very few can "walk the walk", especially when they're looking at the spinner and propellor sized hole in the door of their car and the bill from the repair shop in the other hand.........

Good luck with your T jet!

This post made my day. America was made what it is today by innovators otherwise known as "rule brakers."

I hope more and more renegade fields pop up.

Taxman

Just a thought to ponder on, It's the renegaders that ruin things for everyone else,and a whole bunch of renegades flying turbines is bound for disaster. All these rules on regs. can be a pain but they give you some guidelines and they might make you think. I am not Sticking up for DB and his regime, but I really dread the thought of a 200+MPH turbine in the hands of some renegade who don't really give a S#!T

All the rules and regs are enforced at AMA chartered club sites. According to stats that have been published by AMA spokesmen, half of the insurance claims processed by AMA are for actions filed against these clubs, though only about half of AMA's members belong to clubs. I have no reason to expect that 'renegaders' are any less responsible than the half of AMA members that don't belong to clubs, and the latter have a proven safety record that is demonstrably better than that of club members. So, I pondered, and conclude that the historical evidence shows I'm better off around the renegade than I am at the club site, rules and regs notwithstanding. Further, unless I know the guy pretty well, I wouldn't make presumptions about whether or not he really gives a S#!T. Could be that he just doesn't need somebody else to do his thinking for him, and takes responsibility for his own actions. Novel concept these days, no?

Abel

Well, No. Renegades by their very nature don't publish or advertise the results of accidents whereas Chartered clubs are required to report to AMA. Your assertion that renegades have a proven safety record and are demonstratably better than clubs (as you compare them to AMA members that don't belong to clubs) is totally unfounded. There's absolutely no way of demonstrating or proving anything about renegades because there's no one compiling statistical evidence either for or against where AMA is compiling records on chartered clubs. Additionally, the comparison of Clubs safety records to AMA members that don't belong to clubs is not valid. How many of those non-club members fly by themselves out in the boonies (it's hard to injure someone else or do property damage when your all alone in the boonies). How many of those non-club members are older, non-flying members who just support AMA by joining and continue to feel involved by reading MA (these guys are probably not gonna get injured either).

I've been to the Poway industrial area regenade site twice and I gotta tell ya. Scared the h$!! outta me both times. No frequency control and guys taking off without even asking what freq everyone was on or checking airborne pilots for channel conflicts. Flying behind the established flight line. Flying from both sides of the road that was in use as a runway with low passes happening in front and behind people. I'm not a big advocate for a lot of rules, but my experience has been that no rules means chaos.

You really need to re-read Abel's post. You are way off the thrust line of his post.

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In my original post I never said there were no rules where I fly. The rules, "gentleman's rules", are not posted, but heck does everything have to be spelled out from A-Z for people to have fun.

Well, I take a little bit of that last statement back. I usually do not give ground, but I guess in this case I will, just a little, due to the fact that there are a few people (maybe you, I don't know, never met ya) that do need things spelled out in that fashion. They are the type of people that think you can drive recklessly on the highway because they didn't see a sign that said "reckless driving prohibited". People of the same mentality, if there home was on fire, would burn in their homes, because nobody said they could leave. I am not of this mental mindset and do not want to fly around people who think as such.

Now, back to the main point. Common sense and the gentleman's rules apply at our field. It is a "renegade" field, but works extremely smooth. I can't help you about the Poway Renegades, but sounds like you made a decision, based on "common sense", not to fly that day because things were a little out of hand. I can tell you from first hand experience that I have been "shot down" twice by someone turning their transmitter on....................Oh, by the way............it was at a sanctioned AMA field. Also, to drive my point home so to speak, I have never been a victim of being "shot down" at our renegade field. So now, I have to get shot down 3 times at the renegade field to be statistically worse(money wise and danger wise) than the AMA field. There you have it in a nutshell.

Airdogiam

"I will cut my own path through the valley of resistance and it will be straight and true"..Airdog

Airdogiam

Exactly! Some people need to be told to pick thier feet up and where to put them down...and some DO NOT.

Hi Jerry-
Well, I didn't intend to infer that no rules apply at renegade sites, just less formal and sometimes arbitrary ones than AMA clubs demand. In the case of the Poway industrial park, rules apply there too, whether the fliers agreed to them or not. Anybody that ignores frquency control will soon be dealt with according to rules delineated by Charles Darwin!
I think you're right about accident statistics for non-club fliers being biased because they're 'all alone in the boonies.' Non-club sites generally have lesser numbers of fliers and the math is simple; fewer missiles and fewer targets = lesser probability of hits. I think that just illustrates my sense that clubs require rules just as any other group activity needs rules, when the numbers reach some critical mass that people can't prevent interfering with each other's enjoyment on the basis of 'gentleman's agreement' and other such informal means alone.
I've flown at club and non-club sites in and around San Diego since 1973, and quite honestly can see no tangible difference between AMA members and non-members, except that the former have coughed up the dues, usually begrudgingly because it was demanded of them in order to gain access to a club site. Not that I haven't encountered some morons, but fortunately they have been few and no more likely to be renegades than club members. Actually, my recollection of the loss of two non-club sites due to actions by fliers (as opposed to encroachment by civilization) both resulted from inappropriate behavior by AMA members that were members of local clubs. One site was Hourglass Field, just North of Miramar NAS. We lost that one within hours after a pylon racer showed up and flew there with a 30,000 rpm screamer that probably exceeded 100 dB in the adjacent mobile home park. The regulars there flew gliders off hi-start and 1/2A models for many years before that twit showed up, no doubt because he wasn't allowed to fly it at his club site. Nearly identical situation years later at an ad hoc site in San Marcos, except this time it was an unlimited racer being checked out before an event at Madera. Both times it seems the models could not be flown at the owners' club sites, but our 'renegade' fields were considered by them as expendable.
At any rate, my original post in this thread was in response to an indictment of 'renegaders' spoiling things for everyone else, and I think that is unfair and untrue. I don't have statistics to show it, but a feeling that if I did, most AMA clubs would trace their roots to a few guys that found a place to fly, and when their numbers grew to a point where it was needed, they organized formally as a club. I do currently belong to one club that organized prior to obtaining a flying site so I know it happens, but I suspect that is the exception more often than the rule. It is most certainly the exception in the case of the fastest growing segment of our hobby, the park fliers. It remains to be seen if significant numbers of them will ever organize as AMA chartered clubs. If they don't, it sure doesn't mean they have my disdain - they are fellow modelers, and it enhances my enjoyment of our hobby/sport to join them, rather than to beat them off.

Abel

Who sigmed the waiver for the guy with the first turbine????
Who signed the waiver for the guy with the first 2 stroke???
AMA ins. is secondary home ins is pri.,,Most of the ama flying sites is a big click
I"ll fly at the dry lake and not hear a bunch of $%^& and have fun with a dozen other jets..AMA is like your motor veh. dept..You hvae to have lic. to drive and veh.,,they tell you how fast you can drive and where to stop ..Our dry lake is as safe as any field,,We find saftey a major issue their.I heard by the grape vine that you must have 20 flights to keep valid cert.and you will have to have a yearly physical and eye test,,what is it coming too?
renegade looks better all the time

I don't think flying as a self-styled "'Renegade" is responsible at all. It's just taking advantage of the work and care others have provided to create a legal and legitimate framework for aeromodeling to exist at all. We wouldn't have the radio frequencies without the efforts of the AMA. You could fly with illegal radio gear, but then you'd be in federal trouble with the FCC. I think this unregulated flying of heavy, fast jets could easily lead to...no more jet products available. It isn't that hard to operate within the AMA structure, and if there is to be any legal aeromodeling in the overcrowded future, it will either be well self-regulated or too tiny to hurt anybody. I'll bet you'll love being limited to 2 oz. 6mph parkflyers.
I didn't see your invitation to others to fly at your lakebed, which would be a real reason to post here. The other motivation would be thumbing your nose at us AMA members. A real renegade would be out there, flying on his own without a need to brag about it.
Sorry, I'm out of touch with these times when the only law is "You can't tell me nothing, I'm going to do whatever I want." I'm able to see the benefits of order and limitation. Please, go out to your lakebed, be free, and get all turbine modeling outlawed. I'd like that.

there are those who march in lockstep, and those who don't.

Swooper or should I say Drooper,

What you are saying just doesn't register with me. How can it be irresponsible for me to go to a dry lake bed, or anywhere else for that matter, if I operate the model safely, take responsibility for my actions, and operate the model with regards to others? If that makes me a renegade in your book, because I didn't follow the AMA protocol where it has no, for lack of a better word, Jurisdiction, oh well!

That being said, however, I do agree, as I stated in a previous post, that if a person flys at an AMA field, then they should follow the rules until they can effect change to those rules which are ill-planned and unrighteous. I am not a sheep and will not accept everything thrown my way, just because someone said its for the better. Maybe you are like that, I don't know (haven't met ya), but if you are, there is a new rule about to be put into effect, it is as follows:

"RULE #12345 of the AMA sanctioned body, paragraph 2, subsection 3 states that at 1 minute after sunrise to the end of civil twilight any person who is on an AMA sanctioned flying field must, three times an hour, get on their knees and hands, otherwise known as getting on all fours, and make specific sounds that mimic a wooly four legged animal commonly known as a sheep. While performing such action the person shall make vocal sounds resembling the written phonetics of Bahhhh, Bahhhh, Bahhhh! Only after doing such action may the person continue to fly his or her model airplane in which the AMA has given them the right to do so."

Heh, Heh, well you probably look at that rule as a bunch of baloney and would not follow it. For me, however, that is how I see the turbine regulations. I think they are a bunch of baloney, due to the simple fact there is a double standard between other facets of the hobby such as huge 3d planes, 200 plus MPH prop driven jobs, Helos, etc. My point is, that if the regulations were not so different for turbines then more jet flyers would go to the local flying field and be part of the AMA regulations, which would be for the most part equal. Under the current regulations, more people like myself will see the B.S involved and seek other places(renegade field) to fly safely.

Also, in your reply you related that our renegade attitude is such that we have no respect for the law and we would do whatever regardless. Your assumption is entirely misplaced and ill-conceived. Regardless of the AMA RULES, they are not LAWS, and no matter if you are at a dry lake bed or an AMA field, every person still has to abide by the law of the land such as the penal code, vehicle code, civil code, health and safety, etc, etc. I have the upmost respect for the law and have enough common sense to know when I am doing wrong. Safely flying a turbine at a dry lake bed, taking responsibility for my actions, and being aware of the safety of others, in my book is not wrong and certainly not against the LAW.

Good day!

Airdogiam

"I will cut my own path through the winding valley of resistance and it will be straight and true"
airdogiam

thanx for expressing my feelings on this issue also, I consider myself conservative ,carefull,and observent in my flying activities, but the more time i spend at the local ama field the more i feel that eventually im going to drive as far as it takes to get away from this increasingly oppressive association!! these are the same people that when its announced that we all need a license to wash our car in front of the house will shout, "gosh,lets go, were does the line start?? just my 2 later, Ted aka flip-flop-fly!

I keep hearing quotes like this. Was the ama the sole lobbier for the r/c frequencies? Did the people involved in r/c or the radio manufactures have anything at all to do with it? I believe that the ama had a very active role in obtaining the frequencies but was there anyone else at all involved? From what I've seen here on rcu about the services that will be integrated over the electric wires, we could be looking at new frequencies again. Does anyone know if the new spread spectrum radios will transmit on the same frequencies?


Jon

Ask Horace. I think I saw somewhere that He on the 8th day doled out freq's. Mike Krizan

jon-
Maybe the question re who obtained the frequencies should be put to Hoss - he crossed some palms with silver to make it happen. Better question is how much did it cost, and haow many time over do we have to repay it. My understanding is that the cost was about $10K, or about 0.2% of what AMA has taken in each year since.
Before AMA 'got our frequencies,' we flew on citizens band, and before that we flew on the ham bands, an option that is still open to us. There is a one-time fee and a test that will require a couple of hours study time for someone with an IQ over 100 and no prior need to be familiar with FCC rules.
Spread spectrum radios operate across a broad band of frequencies, hopping the signal, usually pseudorandomly, around the fixed narrowband frequency slots within that signalling bandwidth. Each bit of signal intelligence is repeated multiple times (each repeat referred to as a chip), and detecting bit present or not is a statistical decision making process. Some chips are lost due to noise in the channel, but only enough chips need to get through to cause a statistical bias leading to the bit present or not decision of the detector. The more chips transmitted to represent each bit, the better the effective signal to noise ratio. The trade-off is that more chip redundancy requires low data rate or high bandwidth consumption, or both. At any rate, even though spread spectrum systems can operate at very low power levels (small s/n ratio), they still require bandwidth that is regulated by FCC, and the cost of bandwidth is dear. As for using the existing allocation to R/C for spread spectrum, not likely. The band is not very wide (relatively speaking - my bread-and-butter thing involves a spread spectrum satcom system that has 2 GHz of BW to work with), and is sandwiched between a couple of VHF television channels.

Abe