Ummmm yes it does. Are you really that naive?

Losing a RX is an accident. Shooting a plane with any kind of gun is intentional. Does anyone in this forum have 1 ounce of common sense. It's absolutely mind boggling.

Mike-
thanx for the input.

I'd like to point out that Safe and Not Reckless are not the same.
Is flying on a 737 safe? Ask the folks in Brazil. Flying on a 737 was not safe for them, but it was not reckless of them.

Is flying Combat safe? No, accidents do happen, and damages do occur, but the frequency & severity of the accidents are minimized with precautions & measures taken- a set of rules change it from reckless to non-reckless. Now apply that to Gunnery like it is applied to Combat.

Neither Combat nor Gunnery are Safe. But both can be done non-recklessly ... unrecklessly... not reclessly... see, I just think Reckfully flows better than that: Reckless & Reckfull


Before we can describe what precautions should be observed, we have to first admit that there is some ammount of precautions that can make it not reckless, then strike a balance of risk abatement vs 6volume set of rules..... how reckless is reckless?

This is of course hingeing on SC#3 as the only rule found so far that might be interpreted to bar Gunnery. Has any other more definitive rule barring Gunnery been found?

Professionals shooting off fireworks is intentional.
Shooting off fireworks is not safe.
Shooting off fireworks can be done non-recklessly

or put Demolition Derby in there, same thing

Try to find one professional fireworks event in the USA that was fired off with a permit and a written set rules and guidelines for said fireworks. That's why they are called PROFESSIONALS. Are you a professional paintballer shooting with a professional RC flyer with a permit and rules and regs?

Now go find me one set of rules and guidelines for firing projectiles at RC planes. Trying to glom on the to combat rules won't cut it. Read the combat rules and you'll CLEARLY see that firing objects at RC planes is not considered RC combat.

Shooting anything at a RC plane could be a real hoot, but what can happen when something goes wrong could be a real bummer. That is what the original poster wanted to find out. There have been countless threads in this forum in regards to benefits from the AMA and you guys are blatantly giving misrepresentation to the AMA, by sheer ignorance and most likely boredom.

Personally I don't know the exact answer either, but I take common sense over guessing when I don't know the answer.

ok, so a professional can do it with a permit & regulation?
Is that what makes it Not-Reckless, regulation & rules & proving you know the rules to the permit issuing agency?

So what happens if a guy takes the rules, and obeys them without a permit?
IF the AMA had 50 rules to safely conduct a RC Gunnery Events, and you obeyed all of them at your club, would that be reckless?

If you are really interested contact YOUR AMA DVP; www.amadistrictvii.org

Do you think they just hand out permits for fireworks out of vending machines? You don't think there is paperwork involved and that the company presenting the fireworks show has taken the necessary steps in making sure that their guidelines are met or exceeded thus to satisfy their insurance company for that particular firework event? You don't think the person responsible for the event also has some kind of insurance just in case they do not handle their crowd or give the fireworks company the wrong information? This is all general knowledge stuff Kid.

You think you can light off fireworks without having millions of dollars in liability insurance backing you up??? No, you cannot, this is why they don't hand you the permit until they see the insurance. How much liability insurance is backing you up when you unload rounds on a RC airplane? You think 2.5 million. HA! In your dreams.

Nothing until something happens and he or she is trying desperately seeking someone to bail them out from losing their money and property for doing something stupid because they didn't have any insurance to cover them.

And which code would that be?

How about the novel concept of letting the people involved make the decision based on their location, skills,type of aircraft, supervision,potential liability, and the knowledge that they will be held responsible for any negative outcome? They will also get credit for any success.
There are more than enough organizations and demagogs trying to save people from themselves all using the basis that they know better than the people on site what is best for them.
What works for some in one location can be a disaster for others. But, that is no reason to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator because some can't have an equal outcome.

And which code would that be?

How about the novel concept of letting the people involved make the decision based on their location, skills,type of aircraft, supervision,potential liability, and the knowledge that they will be held responsible for any negative outcome? They will also get credit for any success.
There are more than enough organizations and demagogs trying to save people from themselves all using the basis that they know better than the people on site what is best for them.
What works for some in one location can be a disaster for others. But, that is no reason to bring everyone to the lowest common denominator because some can't have an equal outcome.

Better yet, contact HQ directly, they'll answer the question and resolve the issue once and for all.

That's an extremely lopsided comparison. Fireworks involve shooting hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds of incendiary and explosive ordinance above the heads of thousands of spectators. Yes, I can see why they would want 2.5 million. Paintballing a slow R/C trainer horizontally away from a few dozen spectators standing well behind the line of fire of non-incendiary blobs of paint. I see the odds of someone getting hurt at a fireworks show far, far greater than a paintball R/C shoot and people rarely get hurt at fireworks shows due to the fireworks. As with any kind of R/C activity, as long as common sense and the proper safety precautions are observed, it is just as safe as walking down the neighborhood sidewalk. The alarmist attitude is becoming very alarming.

the common theme has again surfaced:
We ask STL a very direct question, and we get chat about everything under the sun except the question we keep asking him.

One More Time:
A long time back, flying combat with RC planes was reckless. A RX cound get killed & you have a Out of Control RC flapping around. Then some folks came up with a set of precautions & safety measures to reduce the risks of damage or injury from out of control planes. They dont wear helmets because that prevents planes from getting Outof Control, they wear helmets because it prevents planes that are out of control from hurting them. They took a reckless activity and added a safety rule set to minimize frequency & severity of planes damaging things&folks.

They came up with rules to make Combat not reckless, they can come up with risk management & risk abatement to make RC Gunnery as non-reckless as RC Combat.

STL- Can there be any amount of rules governing Safe RC Gunnery Events from the AMA that would make the event not-reckless?


As for Permitted Professionals, seems if some podunk group of individuals across america(ama) can say which 55lb planes are safe, we can just look to a new organization, the Society of RC Gunnery to publish Safety Standards & Issue Permits for RC Gunnery: Stadards that meet & far exceed the AMA standards for being around planes that can & will loose RX (combat). There... just abide by the standard safety rules, take the online test to show a working knowlege of them for your permit/waiver from the SoRCG, and you are not reckless in the eyes of the AMA... since the AMA is not the authourity on RC Gunnery Events but the SoRCG would be. Wanna have a RC Gunnery Event at your next club Combat Weekend? The ama club CD better make sure he is up to snuff on SoRCG standards, get a SoRCG Event Permit (free), and enforce/observe the safety requirements set forth by the SoRCG.
----- That sound Reckless? It sounds Regulated, Trained, & Permitted to me.

Terrific, that the way you see the world in your eyes. Would you stick your kid or nephew on the on the flight line next to you while your flying your plane? Would you stick that same kind on the flight line during one of these safe paint ball events where the planes always fly away from the crowd?

A lot of people thought Michael Jackson was innocent. Would those same people let their kids spend the nite in his house?

Also at the end of the day the fireworks company will be insured, no matter if it's safe or not. If someone gets hurt of killed, the owner is still going to home and sleep safely and quietly in his bed, s__t happens and that's why god invented insurance, to protect. Don't most of you guys only see the AMA as an insurer anyhow?

Will the guy flying the plane allowing someone to shoot paintballs at it be insured if what possilby can't happen, does happen? I would say no flippin way, under any circumstances under the current AMA safety code. Remember, this is the AMA forums, not Jackass The Movie forum.

Why do you keep comparing RC firing range to RC combat? Read the combat rules and you will see they do not match one another in the least bit. They are as close as u-line is to soaring. Are you trying to create a bad rap for the combat guys, because that's what your doing.

How the heck do I know. I'm not an AMA legislator or policy maker. Go ask your district rep that question, their more well suited.

But will this SORCG also provide insurance, or just standards? Standards won't pay a lawsuit, will it? Rules shmools, where is the insurance? An insurance company will only provide insurance after a thorough analysis, been through it many times for custom quotes.

Let me ask you something Kid, do you own anything? Have you ever been sued before? Do you know what happens when you get sued and you have equity in something tangible? Take a wild guess.

Looks like it always come down to the courts. If something bad did happen at a paintball R/C shoot and AMA says no to the insurance based on SC #3, then the courts will be the ones to decide and the lawyers from both sides will be all over SC #3 like flies on you know what to prove or disprove if there was any recklessness on the club's part. I think this all points out that AMA needs to do some more clarifying on SC #3. And clubs doing this event should leave nothing to chance on safety precautions. I wonder if other activities like crazy fun fly events would end up under the scrutiny of SC #3 if something bad happened. It could go on and on.

There are codes and license for shooting off professional fireworks. I think it is an NFPA code and most areas adopt this.

Amen to that.



STL- you really see no similartity in an event that can and does cause planes to go out of control, and an event that can & will cause planes to go out of control? Can't draw the parrallel there?

Inurance? Sure, I wasnt reckless, so I've got AMA insurance.
Own anything? There was a reason I got a Nevada Shell Corp to hide assets in, I lived in california & didnt want to lose everything over spilled coffe or a wet floor or lost wages of a burgler I may shoot.

Me?
I'm not Tim the OP claiming this was Verboten
I'm not the guys doin the shootin
I'm just wondering how some dangerous things are ok, and some arent, just by if it has a AMA pdf.... and whynot have that PDF written? I'm just wondering why we let the insurance co use the vague & broad phrasing of anything Reckless will void the insurance, without any definition as to what is reckless, and by who's standards? Pilot? CD? Club? AMA? Insurance lawyer's? yup, I bet it just happen's to be the lawyers.

anyhoo
Is it against the code? Not if you dont do it recklessly.

Insurance company can simply say, claim denied, end of story, no judges, no lawyers. Now you get to fight your own battles. First you have to deal with your accident, at your own expense, before you can go wasting your time fighting the AMA. And good luck fighting a poor ol' not for profit whose been around for 70 years with proud american heritage. But after you lose your lawsuit, then you can try to go after the AMA and only if you honestly think shooting an RC plane was safe, out of your own pocket. And a big good luck with that one! You think you'll get a lawyer on contingency on that one??

All this trouble and all you had to do was avoid it in the first place. I'm not saying I would never shoot paintballs at an airplane, sounds GREAT! Terrific. but what I won't do is jeopardize my livelihood or my fellow club members to do it.

ok one last time. i care because if that trainer goes out of control it could kill someone! that would affect our hobby in a very negative way. the non ama people could care less but those of us who are serious and do this for the pure love of aviation.
there used to be a time when kits had to be build the owner took pride . Now rtf means no building skills involved less feeling of ownership and more i dont care about the other guy attitude. Too many kids playing with rc with no supervision or common sense.
We are one big accident away from more negative publicity which we can avoid by using common sense. Shooting at a plane IMHO is not the right thing to do!

ARCF - AMA won't be the decision maker at all. If they were to say "no", then you can bet you ***** the lawyers would be suing the AMA for not becoming involved since it was a "AMA sanctioned" field. So, no, AMA isn't going to sign off on this.

Look, AMA isn't the ones dictating these CAN DO - CANT DO's. It's the insurance company that AMA is purchasing coverage from. I can guarantee that AMA gets audited each year by it's (our secondary) insurance company. Every little detail is scrutinized as to how much "risk" is involved.

Very good point, risk. Risk is multiplied many more times over when it's the difference between an accident and between intentional.

Meaning the AMA has paid many claims for accidents outside of flying. Slip and falls and so forth, but the point is, those are accidents. However when you throw intention into the mix, you've just thrown a rather large wrench in with it.

Again back to the person who gets hit walking in the street not in a crosswalk, an accident. That same person gets hit by driver using his/her cell phone, now it goes from unlucky to victim. Someone who gets hit by an RC plane which was caused by something that had to do with a paintball gun, will become a victim and not an unlucky recipient of an accident.

This statement came from the same guy that made this statement:

I think the first comparison is far more valad.
Anyway there seems to be a lot of concern for damaging the receiver and being a helpless spectator of an out of control plane. Well I will ask again. Have any of you ever fired an airsoft gun? These things will shred cardboard but pad that cardboard with foam and there is not enough energy to even dent it. Your Red Ryder BB gun you got for Christmas back in '52 when your dad got the Leg Lamp would have more penitration and energy impacting the receiver. Bottom line that is a dead issue the receiver can be protected far better for a "Aerial Gunnery Event" then the antena wire can be for a combat event. (There is that comparison again.)

Stang-
I can see your point about the RX.

What, in your opinion Stang, would be the extent of control loss, and from what source?
Does a similar source of control loss exist in any currently approved AMA Events (like combat) ?
Just what should we be considering in our efforts to avoid damages/injuries and eliminate Recklessness?

I'm glad to see some technical thought has gone into this matter,
Thanks for the info Stang

I have a strong feeling that if a serious accdent was to happen with a plane that was shot
from the sky in some manner the AMA would probably deny the claim.

If i was to do somthing like shoot at model planes i would only do so with people i
could trust not to blame me if somthing went wrong, and would not tell anyone that
may have a problem with what i was doing.

How about a compromise. We could just shoot little nerf balls at it and score points for each hit. Of course, it might not work on a windy day.