You mean to fly at AMA clubs you have to be an AMA member? Strange but you can't find anywhere else to fly in California? No more open space out there? Last time I was out there I saw lots of open space.

This is not a marketing tactic in the least bit. AMA is outsourcing to Harris only to offer the books and keep records like they've been doing for 40 years for thousands of other organizations before they met up with the AMA. Sorry but this is just incredulous. If you don't want to take the time to read what the intended purpose in regards to this program, sorry but that's just your problem.

ROFL!

I wish I could have seen your face when you posted that, Dion.
You have remarkably little respect for the intelligence of the denizens of this forum. In that regard, you bear a resemblance to the incumbent AMA prexy.

Abel

Abel

Hey 1b, take it easy, it's not really that much an issue, vent this anger at todays politicians, they're really selling you some goods.

STL,
I am a supporter of AMA clubs, I like flying there, and I am active in these clubs at many levels. I also like attending fly-ins, and IMAC competitions which require AMA membership. In fact, in general, I like being an AMA member and supporting my hobby. I am not an "AMA Hater" like many seem to be.

I do not like getting an email like this with no mention of being solicited to purchase something, under the guise of collecting information. The first thing that was said to me by the agent on the phone was something like. "Thank you for calling, we will ask a few questions, and also offer you the opportunity to support the AMA by purchasing your own copy of the directory. Can I count on you to support the AMA?". If AMA is not receiving any revenue from this I would be very surprised since a big p[art of the sales pressure is to "support the AMA". I was asked questions, and repeatedly solicited to buy a directory. This would have been much less sleazy if the letter had had a line in it similar to this, "In addition to providing your Biographical information, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a copy of the directory". At least this would have let me know, that this call would have a sales component to it. Knowing this, I would not have made the call.

As it is, it is too close to typical telemarketing methods, and is inappropriate for a membership organization. The previous unsolicited CD-ROM episode (which AMA management has acknowledged was not well handled), in combination with this are causing me to question AMA methods.

My problem, is that I wanted to post a message to the AMA regarding my feelings about this. I am assuming, possibly incorrectly, that AMA monitors these forums. I also wanted to see if other members agree with my view. If they do, maybe a large negative response will cause AMA management to re-think their methods. I guess I should also write a direct e-mail to the president of AMA.

1) You will not be listed unless you agree to it.

2) You will be back here when it is published complaining that you were left out of it.

This was an attempt at humor! Even if you did not think it funny, your comment on my having a "Loose and Shallow Mind" is un-called for! I'm owed an apology, do you have the courage it takes to do so?

Oh believe me Abel I wish you could have laughed in my face too. I've seen lots of big talk on many of these forums. Had 2000 Pro Bros tell me all kinds of nice things like this before. Oh and I've been around them in person too, but for some reason they turn into marshmallows when they can't hide behind their keyboards.

But don't tell me this is the first Harris list you've been put on? Tell me Abel in what way would this be a marketing advantage for the AMA? This is AMA discussion forum, isn't it? I figure you must be college educated, don't tell me your old alum doesn't use this service? Or is this cultural shock to you?

Well this is a far cry from your first response. I figured you wanted to join the AMA to be part of something other then your first silly ol reasoning of just "using" your local AMA club for a cheap way to get your birds in the air. This sounds moer like a normal explanation.

As far as the Harris directory, sorry but some members might enjoy the book, others ... well I guess we have some opinions. Luckily this forum is just a minority and no, it's not supervised by the AMA. That's why the AMA created districts so each district can maintain their own political views instead of turning it into a bit cluster ....

This latest mail and emailing blitz leads me to believe participation isn't going too well.

Harris just wants my information for this directory and isn’t going to sell it? [&:] Well that certainly is an oxymoron. I believe the only people that will put down $90 for this directory will be those with something to sell.

My question;
The $90 is going to the AMA to help fund programs, or to the Harris company?
If I knew the money were going to help fund programs and not to pay someones salary I may be for it, according to the BBB (Better Business Bureau) states that all funds being raised if going to a non profit organization must not exceed 35% for administration, This means if this is to raise funds that the company doing the work can only take 35% for salaries, and consumables if I remember correct.
Or is this all going to the Harris company to make the book?

I'll repost the link to someone else that utilizes Harris' service. Their deal with Harris is the same deal they make with everone else, this is nothing new by a longshot.

http://www.deltadeltadelta.org/news/...ctory_FAQs.asp

Here is a link to Harris' FAQ's and privacy policy. http://www.harrisconnect.com/privacy.html

I still can't fathom why nobody else but 1 person can understand that the AMA is trying to bring members TOGETHER, this is the only motive. The AMA already HAS YOUR INFORMATION, why would they need to use Harris to market to you direct??????????????????

Can you tell me how else they would have my information in conjunction with the AMA????

somtimes you really are funny Red!

GmanBill-
Harris paid the AMA $40k for our names
so they can ask us if we want to be in their book
and then Harris will sell their Partial Member Directory to us for $90....

They sell books to mailing lists they buy from orgs.
AMA sold our names (for "asking permission" - ) to Harris for $40k.

Anyone wanna guess how Harris will know who to call when trying to sell the book?
Anyone wanna guess how many folks will take the book info & try to sell stuff to the members?

We can simply say that kind of activity is not allowed so it wont happen...
but then neither is drunk driving or smoking the reefer, and that goes on ubiquitously.

I thought the same thing...Good one Red.

OK your mind may not be shallow but it probably is loose, I apologize---(more attempted humor)

Seems to me that the AMA will only be adding people whom want to be in the program. They've sent postcards, given you 800 numbers, what else do yo need to opt out so you can move on with your lives?

I mean god for bid you would want to support your MEMBERSHIP BASED ORGANZIATION and be part of something that will prolly stick around for many years to come. And as far as whose going to buy the book, who cares. The AMA got the money (so you guys say) and now Harris has to sell at least 444 books just to recoup the money they gave to the AMA. Perhaps double or triple that to break even in publishing and editing costs. We all know how much publishing can cost, don't we?

It didn't cost the AMA anything up front, in fact they made money and now the members that want the book have access. As far as what the AMA is going to do with the money, guess you'll have to talk to your local EC member, they voted for it. Maybe they are going to throw a keg party or pay for some new robot guided lawnmowers to keep those pesky AMA staffers stuck at their desk instead of trynig to cut the grass on their own time.

Oh and in regards to companies selling you products on that list so what. So you'll be spammed by RC companies promoting new products and might even get a coupon in the mail from time to time. Are you guys really that worried about it? My wife isn't even that anal. I mean my god .... this is absolutley pathetic the way some of you are acting.

Guys... STL is right,

If you don't want be in the thing... then just don't respond. But the wording is kind of funny.

"If you haven't responded in any way to date, you will not be in the Directory at all!"

Does that mean if they haven't heard from you already, then you are out? Why do I need to call then? Could be a whatever to English translation error.
Opt out, and chill.

STL was wrong about one thing, this is a marketing thing. AMA doesn't care if these guys are sucessful at producing a publication or not. They got their payment. If they pull it off then it certainly won't hurt the hobby. By selling permission to call, email, or send you a card in the mail, they executed a soft approach. They leave it up to you to participate or not. If you give them more and they abuse it... it's your own fault not the AMA's. As far as AMA selling lists to outside companies... Well duh... get used to that. But then again, just how much information does the AMA have on you anyway? Even the annual membership form doesn't have anything more than basic info. I don't even think they have your SSN. So who cares if the AMA doesn't get anything from the sale of the directory? If they got $40k, then they got it for nothing... I'm proud of them for finageling such a deal.

The only thing that Harris ever markets is the book. What is the book? The book are names of other AMA members who wanted to be on the list. Marketing for Harris, yes, marketing for the AMA, no, they have that info already. So Harris gets to market a book and the only people that are going to be marketed for the book are the people who want to stay in the program. A very very soft approach.

But don't forget that Harris always upfronts all the costs associated and then absorbs a cash layout for the initial contract. They are assuming the risk and the AMA members a published book and 40k in cabbage. Why do you think so many organization utilize their service? All reward, no risk.

But like we both said, anyone who doesn't want to be on the list, gets to get out before it's published. The AMA has sent plenty of ways to make that happen. This is the exact same thing that not only Harris does for thousands of other companies and NFP's, but it's the same thing yearbook providers do for schools.

I look forward to receiving as much RC information in the mail and my email as I can when a few RC companies get their hands on it. Afterall, it's one of my hobbies and I like good deals. The only mail I ever receive is from Tower and Horizon and maybe a few stragglers from time to time. Afterall I knew the risks involved by adding my name any list, but I'm still standing.

I was just trying to get you guys to see the BIG picture I am seeing,
How many members are in the AMA, $40k ain't carp compared to the $90 X the # of AMA members that will do this, it could be in the 500,000 member range or more grossing the company that paid $40k somewhere near $44,960,000 minus the cost of producing the books Even if a third of the AMA members paid it would gross over 20 mil before the cost of production.
I did read about the company, they do this for a lot of .org's and make a killing with the companies met worth being in the 15 bil range because they pay an initial price and do not give a percentage of the net funds back to the .org's. When you look at the dollars lost by the AMA which could go to many programs that are in need instead of short selling they could have come up with a better arrangement with a Print on Demand company and did the same in house.

500,000 ama members. where did you find that number?

and for those that don't know, stl is one of the small business that stand to benefit from spaming the folks in the directory.

I was checking the number of members, that is under half of the members in the united states according to AMA records. A non profit is required to list the numbers of paying members in there yearly report, I guess most people do not do there reading. I do keep up with every club or non profit I belong to, AMA, IMAA, IMAC, etc. I read the yearly reports and everything, to me it is like owning a stock, you just going to buy it and not keep up with what it is doing. That is like sending you child to school and not keeping up with there grades. I am not a flag waver, or someone trying to slam anyone like many in here are only here to do, but I do do my research, and do it pretty well. Even if the number were 170,000 x $90 = $15,300,000 - $40,000 = 15,260,000 minus the printing and administration that by doing the numbers there being that i am a published author and knowing the numbers would be about $15 a book. 15 x 170,000 = $2,550,000 leaving a profit of $12,710,000. Could that not go to many programs for the AMA.
That is all that I am saying.

That is funny, funny, funny. Since all adult Open members, excepting Family Members, are mailed an issue of Model Aviation each month, and AMA only mailed 137,811 copies of the October, 2007 issue, (page 145, Nov. MA) I dare say that there are not a whole lot of members more than that number. That number includes those youth members that receive a magazine. My estimate is AMA membership has fallen below the 150,000 mark including all members of all ages.

OK, I wonder why the AMA didn't realize all this profitability? Wonder why the other 10,000 groups that use Harris didn't realize this either? If you are in the publishing business you missed A LOT of information when it comes to costs. When a single writer writes a book, it's 1 guy and 1 typwwriter and an editor. How many people do you think it will take to compile all that data and make all those calls to confirm it? This is not a novel, it's more like a phone book on steroids. And then whose going to continue sales? Of course youll need team of sales, they have people complaining about the magazine and they get that included in the membership. Do you have any idea what kind of sales team you'll need to push a book at any price, let alone $90?

Don't also forget all the startup cash you have to layout just to get it going. The big problem is that no matter what it cost, it would cost. And do you expect the AMA to make a profit from it's own members?? Also your expectations are a bit high in regards to whose going to buy the book, personally I could never see the number going over 5% of the membership per year.

Bottom line if it was easy as your calculator told you, Harris wouldn't be in business. Harris is taking the risk the AMA doesn't want, it's call outsourcing. As a publisher you should know what that is quite well.

(Message edited for clarity)