AMA's new Park Plilot Program
12-11-2007 | 04:52 PM
#102
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From: Bourbonnais , IL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
When you speak to the EC ask if anyone has done the physics on the damage a 2lb 60 mph object can do. We had a club member struck on the leg by a 16oz foamie last summer, and because he is on blood thinner the resulting bruise and clot put him in the hospital for three days. Come on guys, a 2lb airplane can result in severe injury also, a seperate class of member! NO WAY! My experience has been our club is better off today because our park district understands we are organized and insured. Now others may tell them they are safer and thus require less insurance and less restriction, will just lead to as much confusion with public officials as it has with thsoe of us in AMA who don't get it either. Some of our members fly the range from foam to big gassers, if we have a full member who does foam only that is fine, but to be in our club he is a full AMA member, and that won't change. So if there are people out there who fly PF only and want to organize seperately that is their right, but should the AMA help them compete with us for resources we have been paying for years? I ain't happy.
12-11-2007 | 05:30 PM
#103
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RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Well some of your arguements are valid, except if the club has a charter then the insurance remains the same as the current program we have now. However getting these pilots into at least some insurance is better then none.
Obviously the Park Pilots aren't jumping on board with the current program, so the AMA is taking a shot to get them on based on a niche product and lower cost. If that doesn't work, then what will? The AMA's stance is a perfect example of a lion's for lambs approach. I see plenty of lambs on this board.
Obviously the Park Pilots aren't jumping on board with the current program, so the AMA is taking a shot to get them on based on a niche product and lower cost. If that doesn't work, then what will? The AMA's stance is a perfect example of a lion's for lambs approach. I see plenty of lambs on this board.
12-11-2007 | 05:38 PM
#104
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
Bill,
I think you have answered your own question and i did in the beginning of my post. The parkflyer is not going to pay $200.00 plus for club membership. The purpose of the PF program is to help the PF's utilize property that you and your club can't because it's too small. This is a no brainer. The PF program will lead to pf fields in most likely urban areas like school yards, empty lots and so forth.
The purpose of the sharp tone of post is the elitist mentality that i run into from established AMAers. The current AMA majority (?) it seems wants to force the PF's to conform to existing AMA dogma and club structure. By the nature of the technology and needs of that type of flying that is not possible, time has shown that this insistence on conforming them has pushed them away from AMA structure and lead to a decline in AMA membership and a thriving PF community outside the realm of AMA structure. This new program answers that need for BOTH the AMA and PFers.
It really does not matter to me what you charge to fly at your field. If you want $1000.00 dues that is your right. But understand that you won't get many takers at that price. What will happen in 10 years if there is no longer a waiting list to get into your club? After 10 years the upstart clubs (PFers) want nothing to do with you because in the beginning you guys shunned them? I think this is elementary, Model Aviation is exactly that, I really don't care if it's electric of if it's gas or glow. It doesn't have to be 100 inch wingspan to be a flying model. But at $200.00 plus on dues for your club i really don't think you have to worry about an invasion at your club field by parkies.
edited: spelling
Curtis,
You still never answered my question. How much should we (mainstream clubs) charge the Park Pilots for the use of out fields? You can't sit there and tell me that we should just roll over and play dead for nothing. If you want to use an established facility, you certainly expect to pay something for the effort that was expended to create that facility. If not, then you are no better than the others who expect everything to be handed to them. C'mon Curtis, How much should the Park Pilots pay for membership at these fields. We already have one guy who won't ever answer a question. Don't become like him. Be a big boy, and answer up.
Bill, AMA 4720
You still never answered my question. How much should we (mainstream clubs) charge the Park Pilots for the use of out fields? You can't sit there and tell me that we should just roll over and play dead for nothing. If you want to use an established facility, you certainly expect to pay something for the effort that was expended to create that facility. If not, then you are no better than the others who expect everything to be handed to them. C'mon Curtis, How much should the Park Pilots pay for membership at these fields. We already have one guy who won't ever answer a question. Don't become like him. Be a big boy, and answer up.
Bill, AMA 4720
I think you have answered your own question and i did in the beginning of my post. The parkflyer is not going to pay $200.00 plus for club membership. The purpose of the PF program is to help the PF's utilize property that you and your club can't because it's too small. This is a no brainer. The PF program will lead to pf fields in most likely urban areas like school yards, empty lots and so forth.
The purpose of the sharp tone of post is the elitist mentality that i run into from established AMAers. The current AMA majority (?) it seems wants to force the PF's to conform to existing AMA dogma and club structure. By the nature of the technology and needs of that type of flying that is not possible, time has shown that this insistence on conforming them has pushed them away from AMA structure and lead to a decline in AMA membership and a thriving PF community outside the realm of AMA structure. This new program answers that need for BOTH the AMA and PFers.
It really does not matter to me what you charge to fly at your field. If you want $1000.00 dues that is your right. But understand that you won't get many takers at that price. What will happen in 10 years if there is no longer a waiting list to get into your club? After 10 years the upstart clubs (PFers) want nothing to do with you because in the beginning you guys shunned them? I think this is elementary, Model Aviation is exactly that, I really don't care if it's electric of if it's gas or glow. It doesn't have to be 100 inch wingspan to be a flying model. But at $200.00 plus on dues for your club i really don't think you have to worry about an invasion at your club field by parkies.
edited: spelling
Once again, the average dues for the 3 clubs to which I belong is $125.00 per year, not $200.00 (where did you pull that number from?). There is nothing elitist about the amount that the clubs charge. It is based upon an stated maximum membership, and the cost of upkeep, field improvements, and taxes, utilities etc. are factored into the final charge per member. True, we could allow more members, but it has been capped at 260 for some years, since allowing more members would mean less flying time for the active membership. This part of the country is known as God's waiting room. Most of the residents are retired, and have use of the fields 7 days a week. The weather allows flying year round, so there are not many times that you will visit the field and find no one there. I honestly don't know how we would accomodate an entirely new group. If we could, would you call it fair to set aside different days for this new group at the expense of the open club? I hope that these Park Pilots can find a venue to be able to use for flight. Most (if not all) the sanctioned clubs who fly at city owned fields, still have a lease on this property. The new groups won't just be able to walk in and make demands for access to a piece of property for which another entity holds a valid lease. Now what? I think that the new group should practice up on their manners, and ask nicely, and not go charging in like a Bull in a China Shop. They might get a little further that way.
Bill, AMA 4720
12-12-2007 | 01:08 AM
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From: Florence, AL,
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
I applaud the AMA's attempt to boost membership. I think they recognize the trends and see the inevitible decline in membership, but I am afraid that this new Park Flyer program will see llimited success if any. Many of the people that the AMA are trying to attract are simply not into organized activites. I work part time at a friend's hobby shop, and I see these guys come in all the time. Many guys bring in banged up airplanes that they are trying to learn fly by themselves because they are afraid to fly in front of people. Guys face it, it is a guy thing to be independent and not ask for help. Many had rather crack up a perfectly good airplane, than ask for some help. And this is not limited to just parkflyers. Nitro planes and large open fields behind houses are an all to common occurance for first time fliers that think they can handle it themselves. It does not matter what AMA costs, nor what club dues are do these individuals, because they simply are not into the whole idea of an organization or brotherhood. I hope this Park Program works because we need to get these fliers out of the shadows and into the fold, but I am not sure if it can be done.
12-12-2007 | 09:30 AM
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From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
However getting these pilots into at least some insurance is better then none.
However getting these pilots into at least some insurance is better then none.
So, what you are saying is that the program targets irresponsible RC flyers that don't have a primary insurance policy????[sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif]
A logical extension of that would then be that the AMA is no longer interested in promoting model aviation, but rather moving towards being an insurance provider. Is that what you are saying???[sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif]
12-12-2007 | 09:37 AM
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From: Manhattan,
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RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Well if you haven't figured out yet that no matter how the AMA gets Park Pilots into the program, via insurance, magazine or maybe just being part of the organization, they will at least have them no matter what you want to call it. Sometimes it just takes tactics. Once they are in, they get it all. Every AMA card holder will have insurance no matter how their homeowners or rentors policy may or may not be written. Also the program does not void out if they forget to make an insurance payment during the course of the year.
Also I know some were asking about site insurance for the park, the new program is the exact same as the current program. So if there is a club at the park they will have 500k and 2.5mm insurance on top of it.
The program targets Park Pilots, end of story.
Also I know some were asking about site insurance for the park, the new program is the exact same as the current program. So if there is a club at the park they will have 500k and 2.5mm insurance on top of it.
The program targets Park Pilots, end of story.
12-12-2007 | 09:44 AM
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From: Muscle Shoals, AL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
P-51B wrote: A logical extension of that would then be that the AMA is no longer interested in promoting model aviation, but rather moving towards being an insurance provider. Is that what you are saying???
12-12-2007 | 09:53 AM
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RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Another great example of another NFP org that does an amazing job getting people in the door by touting their insurance as a frontrunner is AAA. Sure most generally sign up for the towing and travel insurance without a second thought. But once they are in they find out there get a WORLD of benefits.
Have you ever been into a AAA office lately? That's their version of an AMA club site. Not a member, well you can browse (spectator), but you can't have or receive benefits (fly).
Either way at the end of the day AAA still has their customers and they opened their eyes to MANY more benefits, but you don't get those benefits until you're a member of the club. Call it what you will, doesn't matter.
Have you ever been into a AAA office lately? That's their version of an AMA club site. Not a member, well you can browse (spectator), but you can't have or receive benefits (fly).
Either way at the end of the day AAA still has their customers and they opened their eyes to MANY more benefits, but you don't get those benefits until you're a member of the club. Call it what you will, doesn't matter.
12-12-2007 | 09:56 AM
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From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
I think providing insurance that allows the chartering of clubs and securing flying sites IS promoting the hobby.
P-51B wrote: A logical extension of that would then be that the AMA is no longer interested in promoting model aviation, but rather moving towards being an insurance provider. Is that what you are saying???
They already do that for the landowner under the existing platform.
12-12-2007 | 10:50 AM
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From: Muscle Shoals, AL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: P-51B
They already do that for the landowner under the existing platform.
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
I think providing insurance that allows the chartering of clubs and securing flying sites IS promoting the hobby.
P-51B wrote: A logical extension of that would then be that the AMA is no longer interested in promoting model aviation, but rather moving towards being an insurance provider. Is that what you are saying???
They already do that for the landowner under the existing platform.
12-12-2007 | 10:59 AM
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From: An Iceburg in, ANTARCTICA
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
We seem to be running in circles here. The purpose of this program is to allow flying sites in urban areas that are too small for gas/glow aircraft. PFer's don't need the area that you do. With a program like this it will make it easier to get land from municipalities designated for rc flying. This is a no brainer.
ORIGINAL: P-51B
They already do that for the landowner under the existing platform.
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
I think providing insurance that allows the chartering of clubs and securing flying sites IS promoting the hobby.
P-51B wrote: A logical extension of that would then be that the AMA is no longer interested in promoting model aviation, but rather moving towards being an insurance provider. Is that what you are saying???
They already do that for the landowner under the existing platform.
I don't see it as a no brainer, I see it as a tiered system.
I am just trying to figure out what STL was saying, it seemed rather confusing.
12-12-2007 | 11:15 AM
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From: Manhattan,
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RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
The current AMA structure allows everything you just said. Also, if the information here is correct, small glow engine planes...which would use the same small fields, are excluded.
But let's say your a boss of a company. All of the markets around you are growing like crazy, especially in 1 specific target market. Do you create a niche product designed for them at a reduced cost, or do you just sit and twiddle your thumbs and let them skate right on by? Of course you could just spend millions upon millions of dollars in National advertising and try that technique, usually when you dump boatloads of cash, sometimes you can have great returns. The only problem your risk factor is 100%.
The AMA is taking a shot. People called for the AMA to try to capture these Parkies, well the AMA heard the call and developed a program. But now of course we have some members against any kind of program, let alone any kind of move the AMA makes. But either way the program is here, either join or don't. Either way the problem is not going to fixed overnite, but at least they are taking a chance.
12-12-2007 | 11:23 AM
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From: Muscle Shoals, AL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Since WW2, just about all marketing takes into count the largest consumer market in the U.S. They are called the BABY BOOM generation. It does not mean other markets are not targeted, but this market is targeted more. This is about tapping into the largest group of rc flyers today.
12-12-2007 | 08:28 PM
#115
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Ummmmmm,
Curtis,
I asked you a pointed question a few posts ago. Unlike some of the others I am not intimidated at all, and I won't go away. How about a REASONABLE answer to what I asked?
Bill, AMA 4720
Curtis,
I asked you a pointed question a few posts ago. Unlike some of the others I am not intimidated at all, and I won't go away. How about a REASONABLE answer to what I asked?
Bill, AMA 4720
12-12-2007 | 11:14 PM
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From: Muscle Shoals, AL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: Stickbuilder
What would you consider a fair price to be? My club dues average 125.00 per year. Should the new group not be required to pay what it cost me to belong? Additionally, most of them have an initiation fee of $150.00. This is a one-time non refundable charge. Why is it there? Because the Board of Directors decided that this is what the cost would be. There is no negotiating of the charge. So that makes the new guy's start up cost $275.00. Are you guys willing to pay that amount? I seriously doubt it.
Bill, AMA 4720
What would you consider a fair price to be? My club dues average 125.00 per year. Should the new group not be required to pay what it cost me to belong? Additionally, most of them have an initiation fee of $150.00. This is a one-time non refundable charge. Why is it there? Because the Board of Directors decided that this is what the cost would be. There is no negotiating of the charge. So that makes the new guy's start up cost $275.00. Are you guys willing to pay that amount? I seriously doubt it.
Bill, AMA 4720
BTW you will not be able to add Park Pilots to current AMA clubs, you are going to have to form a new club with it's own set of bylaws.
Quote STL
Quote STL
Your question:
Once again, the average dues for the 3 clubs to which I belong is $125.00 per year, not $200.00 (where did you pull that number from?). There is nothing elitist about the amount that the clubs charge. It is based upon an stated maximum membership, and the cost of upkeep, field improvements, and taxes, utilities etc. are factored into the final charge per member.
It really does not matter to me what you charge to fly at your field. If you want $1000.00 dues that is your right. But understand that you won't get many takers at that price. What will happen in 10 years if there is no longer a waiting list to get into your club? After 10 years the upstart clubs (PFers) want nothing to do with you because in the beginning you guys shunned them? I think this is elementary, Model Aviation is exactly that, I really don't care if it's electric of if it's gas or glow. It doesn't have to be 100 inch wingspan to be a flying model. But at $200.00 plus on dues for your club i really don't think you have to worry about an invasion at your club field by parkies.
You still never answered my question. How much should we (mainstream clubs) charge the Park Pilots for the use of out fields?
BTW you will not be able to add Park Pilots to current AMA clubs, you are going to have to form a new club with it's own set of bylaws.
Again Bill it's all based on supply and demand. Sounds like your club is expensive, but not unreasonable. But the only way to find out what the price should be is based on a bunch of math. First off you have to determine what the nut is going to be. That means the dollar amount the club must have to keep it's lease, pay rent, tax and other necessities. And then you add in your wishful luxuries. Now you have a dollar amount. Then you have to determine how many bodies you want to belong to the flying site. That includes the total amount from both clubs and subtracting the number of bodies that belong to both clubs.
12-12-2007 | 11:22 PM
#117
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From: Muscle Shoals, AL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
By the way, Our club dues are $50.00 a year. Something tells me that if you didn't have a waiting list your club dues wouldn't be $275.00 as per your post.
12-13-2007 | 05:58 AM
#118
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: JUGFLIER
By the way, Our club dues are $50.00 a year. Something tells me that if you didn't have a waiting list your club dues wouldn't be $275.00 as per your post.
By the way, Our club dues are $50.00 a year. Something tells me that if you didn't have a waiting list your club dues wouldn't be $275.00 as per your post.
Bill, AMA 4720
12-13-2007 | 06:02 AM
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From: Manhattan,
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RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Bill if I were you I wouldn't charge them anything because I don't think you'll get them no matter what you charge. You are the reason the AMA had to go down this path. You've made it very clear already.
12-13-2007 | 06:26 AM
#120
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: STLPilot
Bill if I were you I wouldn't charge them anything because I don't think you'll get them no matter what you charge. You are the reason the AMA had to go down this path. You've made it very clear already.
Bill if I were you I wouldn't charge them anything because I don't think you'll get them no matter what you charge. You are the reason the AMA had to go down this path. You've made it very clear already.
Bill, AMA 4720
12-13-2007 | 06:29 AM
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From: FrederickMD
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Bill -
We won't know the answer to your question of "how much to charge them" until we recieve the official information from the AMA. There have been lots of opinions bandied about, but without the official AMA documents, its all speculation.
Our Executive Board met last Monday and discussed this program. We were all in agreement that its a very good opportunity for us to reach out to the Park Flyers, but if we can admit them to the club, its going to be at the full price ($50/year). Our thinking is that only about $1.00 of member dues go to AMA insurance, another $1 toward rechartering every year. The rest is for field rent and maintenance. Our field is very conveniently located, and the local municipalities have specifically told us they do not want any airplanes being flown at local parks and schools. Consequently, its not likely that they will support chartering of special park flyer clubs on local parkland.
We have a number of club members that only fly electrics, and we expect that once the park flyers get exposed to larger, more powerful aircraft, they will want to move up as well. What we will do is create a second class of pilot with full membership privileges, but restrictions on aircraft weight and speed, and leave it up to the members to self police, much like everything else the AMA requires. Again, its dependent on the official word from the AMA, which should be out to clubs later this month.
Brad
We won't know the answer to your question of "how much to charge them" until we recieve the official information from the AMA. There have been lots of opinions bandied about, but without the official AMA documents, its all speculation.
Our Executive Board met last Monday and discussed this program. We were all in agreement that its a very good opportunity for us to reach out to the Park Flyers, but if we can admit them to the club, its going to be at the full price ($50/year). Our thinking is that only about $1.00 of member dues go to AMA insurance, another $1 toward rechartering every year. The rest is for field rent and maintenance. Our field is very conveniently located, and the local municipalities have specifically told us they do not want any airplanes being flown at local parks and schools. Consequently, its not likely that they will support chartering of special park flyer clubs on local parkland.
We have a number of club members that only fly electrics, and we expect that once the park flyers get exposed to larger, more powerful aircraft, they will want to move up as well. What we will do is create a second class of pilot with full membership privileges, but restrictions on aircraft weight and speed, and leave it up to the members to self police, much like everything else the AMA requires. Again, its dependent on the official word from the AMA, which should be out to clubs later this month.
Brad
12-13-2007 | 06:34 AM
#122
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Brad,
I appreciate your answer, but the AMA does not set the club dues. So if you are going to charge the Park Pilots the full amount, that you charge any other member, than that is an answer. The crap that I keep getting from the others is what I expected from them. Never an answer that you can get your teeth into, just the normal Spin. Thanks for giving me your opinion on it.
Bill, AMA 4720
I appreciate your answer, but the AMA does not set the club dues. So if you are going to charge the Park Pilots the full amount, that you charge any other member, than that is an answer. The crap that I keep getting from the others is what I expected from them. Never an answer that you can get your teeth into, just the normal Spin. Thanks for giving me your opinion on it.
Bill, AMA 4720
12-13-2007 | 08:13 AM
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From: FrederickMD
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
I wasn't referring to the AMA setting the club dues. There may be provisions in the Park Flyer program that would prevent them from joining regularly chartered clubs, or limiting them to only Park Flyer clubs. The only reason I could see for that would be the lower individual insurance coverage, but we'll see.
Brad
Brad
12-13-2007 | 08:45 AM
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From: Manhattan,
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RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
Doesn't really matter what the parameters are in detail, we have the general outline. AMA Park Pilot members pay $29. They get 500k and an additional 2.5mm of insurance if they are utilizing an AMA club site. What else do you need to know? You charge them what you think you can get them for and even if you want them in the first place. But don't worry, they will find a new home with or without your generous pricetag.
Bill is looking for an answer that his calculator can't figure out for him.
Bill is looking for an answer that his calculator can't figure out for him.
12-13-2007 | 09:07 AM
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From: Muscle Shoals, AL
RE: AMA's new Park Plilot Program
ORIGINAL: bkdavy
I wasn't referring to the AMA setting the club dues. There may be provisions in the Park Flyer program that would prevent them from joining regularly chartered clubs, or limiting them to only Park Flyer clubs. The only reason I could see for that would be the lower individual insurance coverage, but we'll see.
Brad
I wasn't referring to the AMA setting the club dues. There may be provisions in the Park Flyer program that would prevent them from joining regularly chartered clubs, or limiting them to only Park Flyer clubs. The only reason I could see for that would be the lower individual insurance coverage, but we'll see.
Brad
