I can't offer an opinion for other members but I know I never used to get involved in anything AMA related. I only had an AMA membership because I had to if I wanted to fly at my local club.
But on the same token over those years I didn't really see any worthy attempts by the AMA to get me or others like me involved more.

As for voting I used to be guilty of the same mainly due to the fact that you would look at the ballots and not know or even heard of the names of the people running.

Msaint said:

"As for voting I used to be guilty of the same mainly due to the fact that you would look at the ballots and not know or even heard of the names of the people running."

I think this is the way some AMA officials once they are firmly entrenched would like to have it. Our VP in District V (who by the way is a subscriber to RCU under his own name Jim_McNeill - check his profile for laughs) fought the use of the internet and e-mail forums to the point where he fired AVPs and webmasters that were promoting it.

AMA members are no longer have to be in the dark. Those that want to take the time to find out what is going on by reviewing EC actions on the AMA web site and discussing issues on forums such as this one can be better informed so they can make choices at election time.

And there are some EC members, such as Dave Mathewson - D-II, that do come forward with explanations and timely information. It is people like this we should support while making every effort to unseat those that consider their position a God given right, not to be challenged or questioned.

Red S.
AMA 951 District V
Leader Member/CD

working for change, working to make District V all it can be, working to elect Tony Stillman in 2004

Hey Red
Back in this thread it stated that this matter of topic was voted on through a presidential action and was not on the EC agenda.

What exact powers are given through presidential action? I thought presidential action was only to be used for issues that needed emergency immediate attention and could not wait to be put on an agenda for a following meeting?

Could this topic not have been brought up through a presidential action and tabled for discussion until the next EC meeting? Thus giving the EC time to get opinions and input from members and reps.

Can ya fill this mushroom in a lil

So common sense is worth 20 g's hmm, I should think that anyone who is a district V.P. should be able to answer any questions put to them by the media without some kind of special training with the exception of D-V (for now). Wonder how much they pay the guy that tells them when it's time to cut the grass at the big club house in Muncie? What a bunch of pinheads.

Ask and ye shall receive:

In the minutes of the executive council meeting, November 16-17, 1996
there was a motion made, seconded and approved to allocate up to $1000
for an AMA employee to learn "How to Grow Grass" (motion XIV).

Abel

Actually that wasn't to bad if they were working on a full turf management plan.
Worked at some golf courses when I was in my younger years hard to remember that for back. But growing good grass isn't as easy as some think

Now as to whether that money was well spent heh Dunno I have never been to Muncie to see the grass

All very good JR. However one thing that AMA EC Leaders are finding out is that the laws concerning IRS 501 (c) (3) educational organizations are rather explicit concerning "NO LOBBYING" and the division and redistribution of assets among other corporate entities not already themselves established 501 (c) (3) units.
Some years ago DB was pushing the idea of establishing an AMA Foundation. Whatever happened to that idea, I know not.

While, IMO, DB does have a number of good ideas, his track record of accomplishment and follow-through leaves a bit to be desired. OTOH the records indicate to me that when DB appears to have some personal interest, he becomes the iron-handed ruler and accepts nothing less than his desire.

By the same token, when answering a one-to-one telephone question concerning the publications (or lack thereof) of certain AMA fiscal plans, the current EVP told me directly that his operational method was to do that which he wanted and disclose such after it was done. In other words he was not interested in any member inputs to that which he was doing. In addition the records contain several references to his hiring outside legal and fiscal assistance for his specific tasks. Such is never mentioned in his "Model Aviation" articles.

MsainT: >>>>>>> "Could this topic not have been brought up through a presidential action and tabled for discussion until the next EC meeting? Thus giving the EC time to get opinions and input from members and reps." <<<<<<<<<<

Dave Mathewson - D-II, said it was needed NOW. Please review the previous 2 paragraphs and relate.

Giving the devil his due, our AMA Leaders, like our Congressmen, et. al., and such have to make certain decisions without seeking member permission. THEY ARE ELECTED officials. The ballot is the voter's permission to continue or be denied.
In my opinion, it's very unfortunate that in the past two AMA elections, the membership has given the current administration Carte-Blanch to proceed in the usual manner, either by direct ballot approval or by abstaining from the election.
If you are not happy with things, the best corrective action will stare you in the face each time you look in the mirror.

Horrace,

Time for some conjecture? If I were the AMA leadership, I could not think of anyone that could better represent the AMA as a lobbyist than a past President of the AMA. It would seem that the time to form an AMA Foundation would be just before hiring a lobbyist. There is not much sense in having a foundation with nobody in it.

In talking to Dave Brown, I found that he is very much desires that the split of the AMA into three divisions require a change in the by-laws. He is certain that the Leader Member's will approve such a split. He believes that a split can be done without changing the by-laws, but, that is not the approach he plans.

It may be that without a change in the by-laws that the 501 (c) 3 stands in the way of an AMA Foundation. Strictly my conjecture.

I think the next year might be very interesting. If DB were to choose to not seek re-election, I can see the Dist 2 and Dist 8 VP's in a pitched battle to replace him.

Who better to represent the AMA as a lobbyist than Dave Brown? He is knowledgeable about the AMA and virtually every aspect of the hobby. He is personable, driven and a politician.

Just speculation on my part.

JR

I see no need for a lobbyist. If there are issues that need to be addressed by law makers and or elected government official by the AMA that is the point that the AMA President should rally the membership to contact their government officials and make their voices heard. 180,000 voices will out speak any 1 lobbyist.

Again people will say. Well less then 20% of membership even bothers to vote. How are we going to get them to write, email or call there Representatives and Lawmakers. Again we are back to the disassociation of the Elected Officials and the general membership of the AMA. An organization has a problem when less then 20% of its members even bother to vote. I think first and foremost this should be addressed. Whether it be a change of the people at the helm or it be a change in the way they look at things and go about doing them.

I guess next the AMA will be giving campaign contributions out and attending those 5,000 dollar a plate dinners.

JR-
It would be ironic if 501 (c) 3 concerns stood in the way the AMA Foundation. My recollection of the basic objective of the foundation (as expressed by D10 VP, who proposed it in the first place) was to carry out projects 'in the public interest,' and so bring AMA into compliance with 501 (c) 3 provisions. It was thought, rightly so IMHO, that AMA's exempt status could not be defended if questioned, as it almost exclusively serves the interests of its own dues-paying members. Demonstration that an organization exists substantially 'for the public good' is a pretty basic prerequisite for obtaining and keeping 501 (c) 3 favored tax treatment.

Abel

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JR:
//SNIP//
He believes that a split can be done without changing the by-laws, but, that is not the approach he plans.
<<<<<<<<<

I believe I made a statement some months ago that the split could be done without a change in the Bylaws. Not a new topic.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>
JR:
"It may be that without a change in the by-laws that the 501 (c) 3 stands in the way of an AMA Foundation. Strictly my conjecture."
<<<<<<<<<<

The Foundation would become the 501 (c) (3) unit. If AMA then becomes the *Lobby* unit, AMA would have to forfeit the exempt status. Depending on how the assets are to be redistributed will (IMO *is*) the item in the way of the Foundation. You and some others mentioned NRA. My contributions to the NRA Foundation are tax deductible. Contributions to NRA proper are not.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I think the next year might be very interesting. If DB were to choose to not seek re-election, I can see the Dist 2 and Dist 8 VP's in a pitched battle to replace him.
<<<<<<<<<<<<

Will the D-10 VP then give up his place on the ballot each election? Been there since he got there!!

>>>>>>>>>>>
Who better to represent the AMA as a lobbyist than Dave Brown? He is knowledgeable about the AMA and virtually every aspect of the hobby. He is personable, driven and a politician.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

QUALIFIED! Beyond anyone that I could ever imagine. Other than Don Lowe, I couldn't even think of any person that could measure up to DB more than 2%. Now it's the *Politician* part that bothers me. Politicians do not demand my trust. They seem to look out for their own interests. Kind of like *the senator Dusechel*, (I want to spell that as close as possible to a douche) he is against a tax cut that could interfere with his wife's lobbying in the House of Reps. that produces multi million $$$ for his own campaign/living standards. Taxes at 70% and he's still rich.
I will always look under the bed and check the small numbers on the black helicopters, plus keep a certain amount of self-protection well hidden.
In addition being *driven* is something that doesn't allow any reconsideration of one's own viewpoints. When one is so focused on the narrow white stripe, one can easily overlook the beautiful "Oasis" just off the side of the road." BTDT!

>>>>>>>>>>>>
Just speculation on my part.

JR
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Now that I agree with you. However, JR, when you buy a stock, you are speculating that it will go up in value, while the seller is speculating that it is going down. Speculating in itself is what we do to be prepared for the future, so it's not all bad.

So as I stated earlier, the foundation needs to be established as the 501 (c) (3) unit and assets transferred. Why has it NOT been done? There's just gotta' be somethin' under that bed.

And to Abel_Pranger. The education exemption is justified by the Museum and the Scholarships. Unfortunately the scholarships do not have a record of equality so there is something that could take AMA for a hit.
In addition AMA does establish national Safety Standards, etc. etc. and they are open to any *public* that so desires to join. OTOH, if lobbying the government is in the plan, then changes need to be made.
When DH gets it all DONE then maybe he can find something to tell us more-so than the outside paid auditor's report for 2 years ago. YUCK!

Finally: >>>>>>>>>
Msaint: "I see no need for a lobbyist. If there are issues that need to be addressed by law makers and or elected government official by the AMA that is the point that the AMA President should rally the membership to contact their government officials and make their voices heard. 180,000 voices will out speak any 1 lobbyist. "
<<<<<<<<<<<<,

Sorry Sir: ONE lobbyist with just $90,000 in his hand will be heard 360 to 1 over 180,000 voices saying, "Please oh Please. Mr. Lawmaker."
Money and ONLY money makes a sound, and that sound will never be muffled. Speak of religion right here and a dozen or so will yell at you. However they are busy every day grabbing that paper that says, "In God We Trust." Money is the true measure of their stated conviction.

Yes money does talk but it must be kept in mind that money has to come out of the memberships pockets. NRA has a estimated membership of 3.6 million. When the AMA gets near half that then I would say a lobbyist would be a nice thing. $90,000 is tip money when it comes to lobbying lawmakers.

I think more lobbying needs done to promote the hobby to the masses.

Lobby the membership to get more involved with their organization.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying that a government lobbyist for the AMA is a bad or not needed thing. I actually think it would be good for the AMA and the hobby as a whole at some point. I will however say that I don't think at this time the AMA is of a size to justify it. The money would be better spent at this time promoting the hobby to the general public. Increasing the AMA membership base.

So at this time my opinion is the AMA should use what it already has a membership base to draw a voice from. It is better than what we are doing now is it not?

Now I haven't seen any number as to a 10 year membership trend or graph. Would be nice to see. <---- RED?

Oh heh and a lil more gloss in the mag and getting it monthly would be nice also

Also don't take me the wrong way as I could be way off base on this. But I dont want to see membership fees double over the next 5 years. So how about we double the membership numbers instead.

Msaint

Let me ask you something, without malice. How many of the attempts to influence government by the AMA calling members to support causes were you involved in during the last twelve months? How many such attempts were you aware of, keeping in mind that you are obviously more involved and interested than most?

JR

I emailed my lawmakers on both the recent model rocketry issues and Radio Controlled hobbies. Even though I haven't been involved in Rocketry since the late 70s early 80s.

If you read back in the thread as I stated I have been away from the RC hobbies for a few years. Was living out some other ambitions before I got to old to pursue them.

I am involved in a few business related organizations and we are constantly emailing our representatives on issues such as steel tariffs ect ect. So I have access to a list of representatives and lawmakers in my area. Actually I'm surprised AMA doesn't have an area on there website devoted to contact information for lawmakers in the various AMA districts. At least not one I could find.

So when the ban on model rocket engines came to be I popped off a few emails in support of the model rocketry hobby as well as the Radio Control related hobbies after I saw mention of it on the news. Do you want to know whats real strange. It was at that time after seeing that on the news that I decided to walk away from racing after the end of the season and get my RC stuff back out ...go figure Actually the model rocket guys made a very good case and did some very good PR on there plight in their hobby.

Keep in mind I look at the AMA threads here as a place to debate issues and or voice opinions as many here have and will keep doing so. All in all the AMA is a very nice organization. Better than most. While I don't always agree with some of the actions taken by or ideas put forth by, I have the utmost respect for the elected officials and the ole timers who I have corresponded with over the years on various mailing lists and forums Like Red

And no malice taken.

>>>>>>>>
Msaint: "Yes money does talk but it must be kept in mind that money has to come out of the memberships pockets. NRA has a estimated membership of 3.6 million. When the AMA gets near half that then I would say a lobbyist would be a nice thing. $90,000 is tip money when it comes to lobbying lawmakers."
<<<<<<<<<<<

Yes it is, no argument there. My figures were simply multiples applied to the number 180,000 someone used for AMA membership. No science applied.

However, OTOH, don't forget that it only took $10,000 to get the new frequencies released back in late '81. I was very surprised at what $8000.00 bought me in a particular situation back around 1980. None involved could have collected more than $1000.00 ea. Yet if one is in a position to get that $1000 several times a day, five days a week, all untaxed, it's not long before one can upgrade one's standard of living quite substantially.
In addition, the money goes to purchase something wanted. Whatever you want, you buy or pay money for it. If you get what you want, what is the difference in how when or what such money is conveyed. If AMA uses member dues to get what AMA members REALLY need (the members, not just the bureaucracy) then, IMO, that is what AMA dues are for.

Yes I whole heartedly agree. Key words being the membership.
I guess my biggest gripe which I think you will see quite evident in all my post is the detachment of the membership and the bureaucrats, which has existed back as far as I can remember. (now granted Im not as old as the woodwork like some of the ole timers Which in my opinion still exists to this day.

To make my point which I don't really think I have to on these forums due to the fact that I may be singing to the choir, all anyone has to do is read through some of the other threads on the AMA Discussion group here.

While your not going to satisfy everyone all the time. I think more things could and should be done to involve the membership more. Make them feel they are more than someone who sends a check every year and gets a magazine and some insurance.

I would be more than willing to help in this effort as just another AMA member. In my opinion there should be a open to members discussion mailing list hosted by the AMA with different sublists to discuss the different aspects of the AMA. I don't know if they already have closed discussion lists for district reps and others.


There should be a portion of the website with contacts to various government representatives for their local districts and what the AMA would like to see the membership do as far as contacting them in a per member standpoint.

This is the computer age this type of communication is very easy.
All the other organizations I belong to already have had such items in place for a long period of time now. Why is the AMA lagging behind so much. Is there a fear of hearing what the general membership has to say and making it very easy to voice their opinions on different subjects. Is there not the technical support within the AMA to put such things in place

Such things do exist at the the District Level - both District VIII and District II have such forums that are supported by the District VP. Others, particularly District V have a forum, but NOT supported by the VP - he would probably like to see it disappear.

There is plenty of talent available to set one up for the whole AMA rather than just individual Districts. But it will take support from the top to work. It could be part of the AMA web page or in a separate format, with each District VP nominating someone from his district to share in the moderator duties. Another option that would require no effort at all is for the AMA web page and District Web pages to link to this form and make it "quasi official" AMA forum.

I set up an "allama" forum on Yahoo
[ [email protected] ] , but the response has not been that great, individual district e-mail lists are similarly poorly subscribed considering the number of members in the district.

Participation is the key to a strong AMA, it has to be driven both from the grass roots and accepted by the top echelon. There has been very little effort, IMHO to increase the involvement of the membership and the membership doesn't seem to care all that much.

Think of all the opportunities that member driven projects could address.

Technical and Historical archives.

Better member services such as keeping club contact lists current.

Better access to field locations with details as to visitor acceptance for traveling modelers and first time attendees to events.

Automated district mailings of events.

The possibilities are endless. But without some "Help wanted" ads from the AMA you can't expect many applicants.

Red S.
AMA 951
District V

Red I know you were and still are subscribed to some of the email listservs. What would be the most pertinent path to working in the direction of getting one setup for AMA members by the AMA. I am talking on a national level. One list serv that would both have general AMA topics as well as addresses to subscribe to in the district level. These would be opt in just like the ones you are on now to which members could subscribe and unsubscribe at there own choosing.

I can also point them in the direction of another organization to which I'm a member of PMPA http://www.pmpa.org who already have all of the above setup for its members and would be more than willing to give me the information on the software they are using and how they went about setting it up as I am a member of the internet committee for the PMPA.

Msaint: your ardent interest is like a breath of fresh air,

Try this.
Go to AMA Dist. 8 web site (http://www.ama-dist-8.org/) and sign on to the D-8 newslist. After there you can get on the D-8 discussion list (AMA stuff) You do NOT have to be a member of D-8 to be on that list.
Get some discussions going about things and watch for list *owner* Bill Lee to step in and either dress you down or kick you off the list.
I am a D-8 member, but not allowed on those lists.
As a candidate for AMA EVP I had to enter into defense against legal action initiated by the current EVP. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, to indicate the EVP's action was not whole-heartedly supported by each member of the current EC.

Have you seen or heard of any action taken by AMA reference the thread in this forum concerning the Arkansas land deal? I haven't.
All in all, the bureaucracy, so now well entrenched with the carte-blanch so given by the membership in the last two elections, simply has no interest in YOUR or anyone else's opinion.

However don't despair just because this older-than-dirt old man is actually well tired of trying to do something for *members* that have no clue about issues, don't care about issues and wouldn't know an issue if it was looking them in the eye.
You go right on, pick up the flag and go forth. I will beat the drums. Persistence and determination are the answers.

You are going to have to point me in the direction of that thread as I cant seem to locate it on here

------
I am a D-8 member, but not allowed on those lists.
As a candidate for AMA EVP I had to enter into defense against legal action initiated by the current EVP. There is no evidence, that I am aware of, to indicate the EVP's action was not whole-heartedly supported by each member of the current EC.
-------

It just so happens 2 very good friends of mine are members in district 8 and live in Arkansas. you may know them but i wont post their identities on here heh they are ole timers also Whats funny is they have no clue about any Land deal in Arkansas. Now why does that no suprise me.

I believe I will join that mailing list.

It just so happens 2 very good friends of mine are members in district 8 and live in Arkansas. you may know them but i wont post their identities on here heh they are ole timers also Whats funny is they have no clue about any Land deal in Arkansas. Now why does that no suprise me.

I believe I will join that mailing list. [/B][/QUOTE]


It's all in the thread "AMA vs Chartered Club 4129 ( 1 2 3 4 ... Last page )" right in this very AMA forum.

What land deal in Ark? I must have been working too hard the past coulpe of years.

Crisis management training? The best crisis management training I ever received was from my parents. "Tell the truth and make sure your brain is engaged before putting your mouth into gear!" (I'll give em training on crisis management for a LOT less than $20K and it won't even take up a week of their valuable time.)

I'm probably missing something here but I thought this hobby was about model airplanes and flying them. What crisis do we need training for?

There is an email listserv for District VIII?