Ok guys I have the aero works extra 300s from ak models. Running a os 91 max on it. Pull pull on the rudder, 1 pushrod with two threaded steel rods running to the elevator. I am using the JR XP6102 radio that I fly my helis with to. The Ailerons have one futaba s3004 servo a piece. It is a joined one piece wing.
I just cannot get this plane to roll fast at all. Very slow roll rate. I mean snal slow. The throws are just about maxed to. I am baffled as to why it is slow. Below is what another member said to me and I was hoping someone could elaborate or explain to me what I need to do to get her to rock and roll


"fellers

Sounds like you need to do some role coupling to get your roles to work better. It has to do with the upward moving wing has more or less lift than the downward moving wing. On a Futaba computer radio. I think I use the flaperon funtion +or- 2to5%. Not sure if that is correct. but look aroud you should find some instructions to help you with your situation"

No, it sounds like you need to change the amount of aileron throw. And do it on the airplane, not the transmitter.

The thing is is that the bevel on the aileron itself and the bevel on the main wing are maybe a millimeter from touching and going flush. So turning out the clevis is going to do me no good. Turning the clevis will take up that mm but so will the radio; but easier and faster.
That is why I am baffled as to why it so slow. I guess I am just going to have to get it to the field and keep playing with it. Other than that it tracks beautifully... But I'll turn the clevis

sounds like blowback.Are you sure the servos are strong enough and what size control rods are you using. If they are too small they could be bending under load

I'm not sure if the servos are good enough or not. They are futaba s3004 -Torque 44 oz/in. at 4.8v.
Can I run a 6 volt pack on a plane?
Using a jr 700ppm reciever. On a heli I can't use 6v because of gyros and tail servo won't allow more than 5 before you deep fry them.
The rods are the stock rods with it.
The plane has narrow ailerons, about an inch and a half if that.
The rod is only about 5 inches to. Plastic clevises. Will be changed to metal before next flight.

Did you seal the gap on the ailerons? If not, seal them. Your ailerons will be more effective.

ok, i have not.
the roll rate is about the exact same as the p-51 on realflight g3.5 with retracts.
How do I seal them. Thin strip of clear packing tape on top only?

If you want a fast roll rate ,then 30 degrees (up and down)is probably at least what you want.If the hinge gap is too tight,you may not achieve that.Remove hinges and install new ones if that is the case.
45 ounce servos are weak.With a 91 up front at cruise, a 55 ounce servo would be minimum,Servo arms(1 inch) and solid linkages is another considerarion.Sealing the gaps as mentioned is good practice.
For sealing I have used clear scotch tape on the underside of planes up to 1/4 scale.

Hi Fellers,

I had the same problem with similar size plane and OS.91 on it, about 4kg weight.
And servos were same Futaba 3004. The Problem is for SURE that you use ONLY one
servo for both ailerons. I have found the SOLUTION in this slow and painful(!) way:

1. I changed to 6V but not just by adding one more cell because the overvoltage then in fully
charged battery pack is 5x1.35=6.75 and that might cause problems on you radio or if in the
radio there is voltage protection that will drain your battery till gets to the 5x1.2=6V. I have
used for each servo a separate voltage regulator 7806 and 8(8x1.25=10V !) cells to make sure
that after the voltage drop over the 7806 of about 2V I will still have the dreamed 6V even when
the batteries are almost exhausted. The Improvement was very little ... the time spent - huge !

2. Then I placed for each Airleron a Separate servo 3004. The rolling improved enourmously
much. Got it like about 4-6 rolls/sec !!! Very Good enough - the Ariplane is not Rock-and-Roll
and is like "PROPELLER" itself - everybody is wandeing what kind of Digital Servo I am using...
and gets very dissapointed when see only the good old 3004 for 12$ there.

3. Then I took away the 6V system and got back to the 4 cells and number of rolls per second is
is only a bit lower, like 3-4 rolls/sec. That is maybe what you call Rock-and-Roll.

It is true that the ailerons are bending, but that is avoided to great extend if your control point
of the Aileron is about 30-40% from the outer end of the Aileron. Gap is also important, but I
did not seal it - it is even too big now, about 3 mm at least but that is something to fix on
the next airplane.

Of course the simplest solution would be to put powerful servo, but then the bending of the
Ailerons will be there to ruin the effect and then you have to firm the Ailerons which is not
very quick and easy job. While making two servos on the wing and connecting them in
parallel takes just couple hours work in total.

Cheers,
Nick

How slow is slow?

What is the throw in degrees?

Gap sealing will generally increase the aileron effectiveness about 15 to 20%.

I have found that the roll rate will increase as the CG inches towards the rear. The speed will also go up considerably as the CG becomes correct. However stall becomes more pronounced.

If the ailerons are reflexed the roll rate and speed will be slower.

Passive boast tabs will sometimes assist in speeding up the roll rate but is a more complicated subject.

Bill

The roll rate is usually measured in Degrees-per-Second. The real Extra 300 roll rate is about 400 Deg/sec.
i.e. a bit more than one full turn of 360 deg per second. Mine is rolling like 4 full rolls per second at speed
of about 120 km/h; that should be fast enough roll unless someone wants his airplane to roll like a
propeller.

I got hung up on this "aero works" Extra 300 from AK Models. Aero Works doesn't sell through AK Models and even if they did, they don't make a 60 size Extra. So I looked it up. For everyone's info, this is what he has.

Fellers: You are never going to get a really fast roll rate from that plane. It wasn't designed for it.

Jim

Clear packing tape will work. I use clear monocote, but that is me. Sealing the gap is the easiest thing to do for a start. I would try it first and see how much it improves. Only takes a few minutes. Be sure to clean the area well with alcohal before sealing. I would say that the % of improved effectiveness would depend on the size of the gap your sealing.
Be sure also to move the control to maximum before you apply the sealing material so as not to create any binding and allow full travel.

Hi Jim,

That is a bit of too much of self confidence... - Do know how it was designed
so you think you know that ? Let me say that you are wrong, could you prove
that you are right ?

Cheers,
Nick

Compare the size of the ailerons and the lack of double tapered hinge lines with any IMAC or 3D airplane. It doesn't take a genius.

Jim

Based on the pic provided and if that is the plane,

44 ounces of torque seem a little on the low side to me. If those rods are 2-56 then I'll bet they are bending especially if they are 5 inches long. 6v is gonna help but not much, you might end up increasing the bend forces on the rods if they are too thin.

I'd bet the aileron size themsleves are part of the problem if it is determined that the rods/servos are some of the problem. They seem kinda small for most 60 size plane that supposed to weigh in at 7lbs

When flying it fast does the roll rate increase a bit or does it stay the same. If it stays the same or barely increases I'd be looking at the servos or rods or both. If it increases a bunch over doing it at say 1/3rd throttle then it probably cannot roll any faster because of the aileron size.

Having more info like weight and power and prop might help as well. I also suspect you may have the name wrong as AeroWorks never did make that size Extra. So please let us know exactly who makes it.

Nick, I think you may have been a little presumptuious...

That set of ailerons should roll the sucker at least one revolution a second. There are a number of Extras that have the same size ailerons and they roll decent, if not blinding fast. Those will do the job if they're deflected enough.

It doesn't matter much what the specs are for the model servo you're using. If the two of yours that are in that airplane aren't doing it, they aren't doing it.

It doesn't matter what your computer radio says for throw. 140% throw reported by your computer radio isn't always 140% deflection of the ailerons. Matter of fact, change from 100% in the radio to 140% in the radio, and most times, the change in deflection is a lot less than 40% more. So set your radio for 100%, and RIG THE CONNECTING RODS to give you at least the deflection called for in the manual. And if that deflection doesn't give you the roll rate you want, then change the RIGGING OF THE CONNECTING RODS to give you more.

And if that last change doesn't show results, your servos aren't powerful enough to get that deflection in the air, under load. So either your battery is dropping out on you, or the servos are failing, or the pushrods are flexing.

There are any number of reasons the airplane isn't rolling as fast as anyone would expect that design to roll. It'll be up to you to figure out which reasons are the problem. And you've gotten a bunch of good suggestions to look at.

BTW, got a picture of YOUR airplane? That shows the aileron gap? Aileron gap has got to be horrible to have that much effect on roll rate.

Maybe try this; Make sure the aileron servo travel is maximized in your transmitter while using the shortest servo arm possible that will give you full throw at the aileron.

I have seen this problem occur when servo arms are to long and servo travel is decreased electronically in the transmitter to give desired throws. Hope this helps. Good luck.

No I do not have one servo for both ailerons. Sorry if I confused you. I have one s3004 on each aileron. that is one servo per aileron.
The roll rate is about one revolution per second.
That extra in the pic is the one I have to.
If that is all I can have out of it that is ok. I guess. Will this thing hover with a 15x4 W?

Yes, you will have sufficient power but you will probably not be able to maintain control. Control authority is much to low on that design for 3D.

Actually it rolls QUITE fast. Much better than 2 revs per second.

Remember that the thinness of the ailerons are offset by their length.


We have a few of these planes at our field. I've seen them in action.


I also have a similiar but smaller Extra 300 too with identically sized ailerons and it rolls very fast.

As others have posted there are probably other factors... namely:

- The holding power of the servos used. Blowback is quite possible.
- The SPEED at which the plane is flying, faster speed = faster roll.
- The amount of throw.

On my smaller Extra it doesn't take much throw to cause it to roll quickly.

You didn't say whether your engine is a two-stroke or four-stroke, so I can't say whether that prop is a good size for your engine. As far as hovering, it depends on the weight. You'll just have to try it.

Jim

Hi Guys,

It is getting interesting here, let me trow some "Fuel on the Fire". I will post one of my oldest planes.
Below I attached a photo of an Very Old and Very Crapy Seagull Boomerang, after hundreds of crashes,
which rolls about 5-6 times per second, no kidding. The parameters are 4.5kg weight dry, engine OS.91FX,
propeller 13x7, fuel 25% castor 75% metanol and 6V battery chain as I described above.
For sure it is an ugly plane and that is why maybe it does not obey all the nice theories much...
in fact it is a "horror-movie" for the shop-keepers - it does many things which the expensive ones don't.
Maybe important think to mention is the speed, it is about 150 km/h, that has of course main effect. Surely
that crap is not for IMAC, neither for 3D, it is just for fast stunt drive and does the ROLLING FAST and in
the wings are just Futaba 3004... Surely there are many nice ideas posted above, but still I believe also
what I see when I turn the sticks ... and on top of every thing it is Upper-Wing plane ...
Cheers,
Nick

That Extra looks like a cmpro version,except on their website it seems to have bigger control surfaces.maybe you have a 1 st generation?

Well I had to camp tjis weekend with my wife and son. Was sunny all weekend till I got home. It is pouring out, uughhh!!! Really was looking forward to figuring out this roll problem. I am running a os91 max 2 stroke on the plane. witha 15x4 prop.
The plane weighs in a hair under 7 lbs. 6lbs 14.7 ozs. exactly. Without fuel.
Praying that it clears this evening as I am 5 minutes from my field.
I got bit in the knuckle by the prop at full throttle to the other day. Stitches, but only 4. Never got bit by a heli and will never get bit by a plane again either.
I get a bad feeling in me when people call these things toys. Geesh I am lucky my finger is still there! I was concsious of the prop and thought I was far enough out as I was moving to the highspeed needle adjustment wire and just knicked my bent pointer finger knuckle.
I think I will be putting a thin stripe of tracking tape on each end of my props.