saito .91 smoke????
01-16-2006 | 01:26 AM
#51
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Davis,
OK
RE: saito .91 smoke????
We're not talking about the amount of heat produced during combustion, we're talking about the amount of heat that is transfered to the muffler, which is where it counts in the production of smoke. IF you were trying to inject smoke oil directly into the combustion chamber, yes, combustion temp would matter, but your not. The smoke oil is being injected into the exhaust header on a 4 stroke, which DOES run hotter than the same area on a two stroke. Get out your temp. probe and check it.
01-16-2006 | 09:03 AM
#52
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Ok, hold on...
This should clear this up for you...
As was quoted, some of the intake air on a 2-stroke blows right through, which cools the exhaust a little.
BUT!
A bigger reason why 2-strokes don't do as well with smoke is that there is an exhaust stroke on every cycle which blows the oil out of the muffler, on a 4-stroke, the oil gets to sit inside the hot muffler for 1 stroke which gives it MORE TIME IN HEAT, thereby allowing it more time to reach the smoke point.
This should clear this up for you...
As was quoted, some of the intake air on a 2-stroke blows right through, which cools the exhaust a little.
BUT!
A bigger reason why 2-strokes don't do as well with smoke is that there is an exhaust stroke on every cycle which blows the oil out of the muffler, on a 4-stroke, the oil gets to sit inside the hot muffler for 1 stroke which gives it MORE TIME IN HEAT, thereby allowing it more time to reach the smoke point.
01-16-2006 | 10:11 AM
#53
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Antelope Valley,
CA
RE: saito .91 smoke????
ORIGINAL: MinnFlyer
Ok, hold on...
This should clear this up for you...
As was quoted, some of the intake air on a 2-stroke blows right through, which cools the exhaust a little.
BUT!
A bigger reason why 2-strokes don't do as well with smoke is that there is an exhaust stroke on every cycle which blows the oil out of the muffler, on a 4-stroke, the oil gets to sit inside the hot muffler for 1 stroke which gives it MORE TIME IN HEAT, thereby allowing it more time to reach the smoke point.
Ok, hold on...
This should clear this up for you...
As was quoted, some of the intake air on a 2-stroke blows right through, which cools the exhaust a little.
BUT!
A bigger reason why 2-strokes don't do as well with smoke is that there is an exhaust stroke on every cycle which blows the oil out of the muffler, on a 4-stroke, the oil gets to sit inside the hot muffler for 1 stroke which gives it MORE TIME IN HEAT, thereby allowing it more time to reach the smoke point.
Mods
01-16-2006 | 10:18 AM
#54
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Antelope Valley,
CA
RE: saito .91 smoke????
ORIGINAL: vasek
Mods, Can't wait 4 the vid...
BTW did U use the "sand in the tubing" trick to wrap around? NICE JOB!
Minn, I did mean the flat part of the muffler (port chamber) thanks!
Mods, Can't wait 4 the vid...
BTW did U use the "sand in the tubing" trick to wrap around? NICE JOB!
Minn, I did mean the flat part of the muffler (port chamber)
thanks!
Mods
01-16-2006 | 10:29 AM
#55
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: saito .91 smoke????
BTW, as for tapping a nipple into the threaded pipe:
Right now, I have a smoke tap on two 4-stroke mufflers. Neither one is on a threaded pipe. However, my newest YS 110 has one of those threaded pipes, and my plan is to grind a flat in the threads and drill there. If that doesn't hold, I'll add some JB weld.
I find it hard to believe that won't work.
Right now, I have a smoke tap on two 4-stroke mufflers. Neither one is on a threaded pipe. However, my newest YS 110 has one of those threaded pipes, and my plan is to grind a flat in the threads and drill there. If that doesn't hold, I'll add some JB weld.
I find it hard to believe that won't work.
01-16-2006 | 11:02 AM
#56
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: ., SWEDEN
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
01-16-2006 | 12:58 PM
#57
Senior Member
My Feedback: (52)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Logan,
UT
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Cool, thanks MIke B, that was one of my ideas as well, just hope it holds.... so should i buy some of that super flexible automotive coil tubing and run a 6" preheat to the muffler, or no? i could JB weld that stuff into the muffler, right? or i even have a friend that would prob. weld it in, is that possible with that type of coiling?
one other question mike, did you take apart your ys 110's muffler and check out that washer with 5 holes in it? think its cool to run the smoke before it? I just don't want it to get back in my engine..
thanks all for the good posting!
one other question mike, did you take apart your ys 110's muffler and check out that washer with 5 holes in it? think its cool to run the smoke before it? I just don't want it to get back in my engine..
thanks all for the good posting!
01-16-2006 | 01:12 PM
#58
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Erik, did you read the "Got Smoke?" article?
If not, here it is:
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=455]Got Smoke?[/link]
That will tell you a lot as far as where you should tap the muffler etc.
If not, here it is:
[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/magazine/article_display.cfm?article_id=455]Got Smoke?[/link]
That will tell you a lot as far as where you should tap the muffler etc.
01-16-2006 | 05:34 PM
#59
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Davis,
OK
RE: saito .91 smoke????
NO, what is stupid is continuing to harp on COMBUSTION temps when you've been told AND shown that you are wrong. The smoke is not produced in the combustion chamber! Once again, there are OTHER heat producing factors in the 4 stroke that make the EXHAUST components hotter than a 2 stroke, and mechanical factors that allow the smoke oil more time to heat inside the exhaust, and THAT is what makes them produce better smoke. Open your mind and stop clammering about inconsequencial details. You might just learn something if you'd drop the "know it all" attitude.
ORIGINAL: Blue_Moon_
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
01-16-2006 | 05:58 PM
#60
Senior Member
RE: saito .91 smoke????
ORIGINAL: Blue_Moon_
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Combustion temps are related to a bunch of things, which include compression ratio, ignition timing, induction timing, exhaust timing, squish area, combustion cycle, fuel, air-fuel ratio, load & heat rejection. There is too much variability in conditions for a sweeping statement to have any validity.
What is relevant to the question asked is the sustained temperature in the exhaust system, & 4-strokes generally have notably higher sustained exhaust temps.
If you doubt it -- grab the exhaust header of each type (be sure to chose engines making similar power) & let us know how it goes. Many of us can tell you from first hand experience [
], but you do your own thing.
01-16-2006 | 07:02 PM
#62
Senior Member
My Feedback: (52)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Logan,
UT
RE: saito .91 smoke????
my problem still remains.... should i grind down the threaded part and tap it? I guess this is my only real option if I don't want to buy a muffler...
01-16-2006 | 07:23 PM
#63
Senior Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 710
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: ., SWEDEN
RE: saito .91 smoke????
ORIGINAL: britbrat
Blue Moon -- you are truly all alone in this.
Combustion temps are related to a bunch of things, which include compression ratio, ignition timing, induction timing, exhaust timing, squish area, combustion cycle, fuel, air-fuel ratio, load & heat rejection. There is too much variability in conditions for a sweeping statement to have any validity.
What is relevant to the question asked is the sustained temperature in the exhaust system, & 4-strokes generally have notably higher sustained exhaust temps.
If you doubt it -- grab the exhaust header of each type (be sure to chose engines making similar power) & let us know how it goes. Many of us can tell you from first hand experience [], but you do your own thing.
ORIGINAL: Blue_Moon_
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Combustion temps are related to a bunch of things, which include compression ratio, ignition timing, induction timing, exhaust timing, squish area, combustion cycle, fuel, air-fuel ratio, load & heat rejection. There is too much variability in conditions for a sweeping statement to have any validity.
What is relevant to the question asked is the sustained temperature in the exhaust system, & 4-strokes generally have notably higher sustained exhaust temps.
If you doubt it -- grab the exhaust header of each type (be sure to chose engines making similar power) & let us know how it goes. Many of us can tell you from first hand experience [
], but you do your own thing.I meant that the whole engine (overall temp) is higher then on a 4c. I have never talked about exhaust temps ;-)
01-16-2006 | 07:29 PM
#64
RE: saito .91 smoke????
I am telling you, you can get the manifold I make for $30 shipped to you and you wont have any problems I promise, The treaded original maifold is too Thin, But try it so you can see for yourself then e-mail me and I will get one out to you!!
Thanks,
Eddie
Thanks,
Eddie
01-16-2006 | 08:13 PM
#65
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Antelope Valley,
CA
RE: saito .91 smoke????
ORIGINAL: erikpmort
my problem still remains.... should i grind down the threaded part and tap it? I guess this is my only real option if I don't want to buy a muffler...
my problem still remains.... should i grind down the threaded part and tap it? I guess this is my only real option if I don't want to buy a muffler...
Mods
01-16-2006 | 08:15 PM
#66
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Antelope Valley,
CA
RE: saito .91 smoke????
ORIGINAL: Blue_Moon_
I meant that the whole engine (overall temp) is higher then on a 4c. I have never talked about exhaust temps ;-)
I meant that the whole engine (overall temp) is higher then on a 4c. I have never talked about exhaust temps ;-)
Mods
01-16-2006 | 09:44 PM
#68
Senior Member
My Feedback: (52)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Logan,
UT
RE: saito .91 smoke????
YES! mike b you are the man... exactly what i wanted to see... but what about the pressure fitting? where does that go? you already installed the nipple... sorry if i'm slow
01-16-2006 | 09:56 PM
#70
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Davis,
OK
RE: saito .91 smoke????
That's right, you HAVENT talked about exhaust temps, and exhaust temp is what matters in the production of smoke... not the overall temp. It doesnt make a hill of beans difference what the temp is in the combustion chamber.
ORIGINAL: Blue_Moon_
I meant that the whole engine (overall temp) is higher then on a 4c. I have never talked about exhaust temps ;-)
ORIGINAL: britbrat
Blue Moon -- you are truly all alone in this.
Combustion temps are related to a bunch of things, which include compression ratio, ignition timing, induction timing, exhaust timing, squish area, combustion cycle, fuel, air-fuel ratio, load & heat rejection. There is too much variability in conditions for a sweeping statement to have any validity.
What is relevant to the question asked is the sustained temperature in the exhaust system, & 4-strokes generally have notably higher sustained exhaust temps.
If you doubt it -- grab the exhaust header of each type (be sure to chose engines making similar power) & let us know how it goes. Many of us can tell you from first hand experience [], but you do your own thing.
ORIGINAL: Blue_Moon_
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Ye ye ye, perhaps the four strokers does produce better smoke but the 2stroke ENGINE gets hotter then a normal 4c. its just stupid to consider something else
Combustion temps are related to a bunch of things, which include compression ratio, ignition timing, induction timing, exhaust timing, squish area, combustion cycle, fuel, air-fuel ratio, load & heat rejection. There is too much variability in conditions for a sweeping statement to have any validity.
What is relevant to the question asked is the sustained temperature in the exhaust system, & 4-strokes generally have notably higher sustained exhaust temps.
If you doubt it -- grab the exhaust header of each type (be sure to chose engines making similar power) & let us know how it goes. Many of us can tell you from first hand experience [
], but you do your own thing.I meant that the whole engine (overall temp) is higher then on a 4c. I have never talked about exhaust temps ;-)
01-17-2006 | 09:05 AM
#72
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Erik, What pressure fitting are you talking about? If you are reffering to a system that works off of crankcase pressure, there is a crankcase pressure nipple on all 4-strokes. If you're using a 2-stroke, you'll have to examine your engine (As in - take it apart, or at least remove the back plate) to find the best place to tap it.
Mark, Yes - if you look at the pics above, you'll see that one end of the pipe has a larger thread (Note: this engine is a YS 110 ) the larger side goes to the head, so I tapped it as close as possible to that side in order to: A) get it as close to the hottest part of the exhaust, and B) give it the longest time possible in the heat.
Mark, Yes - if you look at the pics above, you'll see that one end of the pipe has a larger thread (Note: this engine is a YS 110 ) the larger side goes to the head, so I tapped it as close as possible to that side in order to: A) get it as close to the hottest part of the exhaust, and B) give it the longest time possible in the heat.
01-17-2006 | 09:19 AM
#73
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 1,915
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Tracy,
CA
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Mike, Yup that's exactly what I was thinking, closer to the head the better, & longer travel time to the mufller= more smoke?
Mine will be even easier to do. The saito pipe is smooth, only threaded at each end with a jam-nut on it so I can tap it just clear of the jam-nut putting the nipple within a 1/4 inch of the head, this should produce good heat.
My son in-law works at Kragens & gets 25% off, so I'll see if they have that little pump you turned me onto, if they don't I'll go ahead & order it from JC. Thanks Mike
Mark
Mine will be even easier to do. The saito pipe is smooth, only threaded at each end with a jam-nut on it so I can tap it just clear of the jam-nut putting the nipple within a 1/4 inch of the head, this should produce good heat.
My son in-law works at Kragens & gets 25% off, so I'll see if they have that little pump you turned me onto, if they don't I'll go ahead & order it from JC. Thanks Mike
Mark
01-17-2006 | 09:23 AM
#74
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Mark, be careful, some windshield washer pumps will cause radio interference. I have used that same pump from both JC Whitney and Wallmart (Wallmart stopped selling them - bummer, they had them for only 8 bucks! ) and they worked fine, but I got a different type from a Napa store one time, and it caused a lot of interference
01-17-2006 | 11:56 AM
#75
Senior Member
My Feedback: (52)
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Logan,
UT
RE: saito .91 smoke????
Mike: I was just wondering what the last picture was for that you posted.... you installed the nipple, but then the last pictures little great planes device is for what?
