bjr_93tz

Bit early in the build for the heat gun and iron to be out on the building bench don't you think

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

The DB 60 mounts work like a charm on Tipos. I don't think the Curare fuse is any narrower than the Tipo but maybe the wood version is. I don't know whether the beam width will work for the Magnum though - can't see why not - ought to be pretty standard.

BTW, DB mounts are lighter than the Kraft Hayes by a significant amount. Otherwise you could try an adjustable GP mount. Fairly stout.

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

Thanks, David. I will check them out.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

I checked out the DB glass filled mounts. From what I can tell on the spec. sheet, the round type mount will not work. Inside dimension from side to side in the engine cavity is about 2 1/8". At the moment I have the engine mounted to a Sig mount as I mentioned. The beams are 3/8" square and the length of each upright is 1 7/8" supported by the triangular web. Q: Do you guys think that will withstand vibration and torque of engine. I believe these are made for 40 size engines. Back to the drawing board!
I just glued together my first wing skin awhile ago. Also pictured is a view of the foam wing. Also a top mount of the Robart N.G. I am using a 2" on the nose and 2 1/4" for the mains. Hope to get to our private flying field this Thurs. We have a great friend who has 32 acres out in the country with his personal 600 x 50 grass strip. His wife mows it like it was a putting green. She really loves to mow! How cool is that? I will shoot some pics and send them along. Our club strip is asphalt......a real prop-buster if you don't grease the landings. Flying on grass is the only way to fly....from our point of view. I hope to maiden my Big Kaos. I also have an SR Batteries Eindecker I I put together last winter and is chomping on the bit to take to the grass.

chino_2005

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I´m planning to install a pneumatic Robart. The wing installation is ready and nowI´m building the fuselage and trying to figure out how to install the nose gear. If you see the tread there is a video with a test stand in order to check how it works and the use of restrictors.

Maybe I´ll start a building tread in your forum.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

Pattern Guys-David, Ralph,Chino: I just installed my engine mount. Due to the fact that I have only 2 1/4" from inside at the firewall, I had to use what I think is a 40 size Sig mount. I think it will be fine, however. The vertical and horizontal beams measure 3/8", which is the same as the 60 size. This is the type of mount that has the triangular bracing connecting vert. and hor. beams. I added the engine and I see that most of the side of the fuse in that area will have to be removed in order to install and uninstall the engine.
There will be a top block and a bottom block with a nose ring as well to give form to the nose. I was just wondering if any of you gents could pass on a pic of what that finished area might look like. It could be your UFO, Tipo or Curare because I am sure the basic shape will be similiar. I have to find a friend with a band saw so I can cut those blocks that I glued up. Then a ton of sanding and shaping. With the 2 degrees of down and 3 degrees of right, do you think this bird should track with little rudder input?
Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

that is correct, you will be making an opening which starts about 1/8" back from the spinner ring to pass the carburetor and goes back to slightly forward of the beam mount point - usually the thickness of the mount beams at the FW. Usually designs are done so that the cutout is wholly in the fuse side specifically without needed to cut into the bottom chin or top blocks. The best approach I find is to have your engine installed as you did in the proper position for side and down thrust, then, when you are ready to finish the nose, install the shims or washers (easiest to introduce the down and right thrust) and join the fuse sides to the front nose block. Add the internal cowl structure so that it can be fared into the spinner ring and then, last, add the top and bottom blocks. You can mark the front block for the rough position of the spinner ring and then sand into the block the equivalent right and down thrust prior to adding the ring. The whole area then gets sanded smooth and to contour sealing off the bay.

Once satisfied, you then proceed to open up the right side of the fuse in an under size rectangular opening and open it up little by little with a dremel tool - it goes faster than you might expect. Just go gradually so that you don't end up with an opening which is excessively large. A typical opening might be slightly larger on the bottom side (exhaust side) of the engine so you pass the engine, bring it up to the mount beams and have space to install the header (a Curare needs a pipe ). It also makes access to the screws on the under size at least a little easier. 6-32 socket head bolts are best in these applications. You can use lock nuts on the back side of the beams or lock washers and tap the engine mount beams for 6-32 threads. I prefer the former but the latter is sometimes required if the back of the beams is hard to access as it might be on the Curare.

It helps to lay your fuse on the plans to check for shaping of the front nose block to correct thrust angles. Also, if the plans/model are setup properly, you won't have to shim the engine mounts for thrust angles - it will be built into the FW - which is preferable on the Curare in my opinion. You shouldn't need any band sawing of the nose blocks. If anything, the chin block might needs to be hollowed out slightly on the inside which is something you might want to do anyway for weight reduction purposes - again a dremel tool with a sanding drum works well here.

Whether your model tracks is all together a different matter...

David.

P.S. There are pictures of engine installs in many a thread here.

dchuah

My Feedback: (1)

Am looking forward to more pics. I've got 2 kits from Eureka. Glad to have this reference.

BTW, has anyone considered putting electric retracts on? I've bought one which takes up to 3.6kgs. I'm planning to refurbish an old MK Curare 60 and fit these electric retracts on. Not even sure Singapore Hobby has anymore mechanicals for the Curare to be honest.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

Thanks for the blow by blow description, David. I believe we were thinking along the same lines. Especially with the placement of the nose ring. At first I was thinking how I was going to install the ring in a perfect fit prior to mounting the engine. Just did not seem possible. Ah ha! Mount it after the fact. By the way, when the instructions call for 2 degrees of down and 3 degrees of right, what method do you use for that......a good eyeball? Protractor, fraction of an inch/degree measured from the firewall..? Eyeballing seems a bit crude.
Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

Plans help as they should indicate where the FW should be installed to result in the correct engine incidences.

But you can also use your nice laser incidence meter assuming it has a means to fix it to an engine shaft. Set your fuse datum at 0, stab is probably 0, wing at whatever positive (1 degree I believe or is it 2?), and then, if your FW is still free, mount your engine on to it, the incidence meter to the engine shaft and then move the FW until you've achieved your down-thrust (mark left fuse side for FW position - vertically). Then you rotate your fuse to have the datum again at 0 and figure out down-thrust again - except this time it will convert to right thrust since your fuse is rotated. I find it easier to rotate the fuse for down-thrust rather than up-thrust to produce the required right-thrust, if you follow my meaning.

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

David-Well, I am sure what you said is correct. However, I do not have a laser meter. My old method of shimming will have to suffice. I have done that before and it seems to work. However, I always like to hear the most correct version. Many thanks.
Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

I thought you had a laser incidence meter - but not yours, was confused.

If your FW is glued in then the old shim method works fine with the SIG beam mount you have used. Simple washers behind the beams do the trick - you might need one or two behind three screws depending on angle required.

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

David-I have the FW epoxied to one side, but I did fit the top two bolts with one washer to start and then added another washer to the left side top and bottom. I am not really sure what the degree of offset that equals, but I have used that in the past with fairly decent results.
Tim

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

Got the sides of the fuse joined along with the nose block. Finally managed to get the alignment down for the engine supports. Worked on that for a couple hours. I am modifiying the nose ring rather than using the one that came with the short kit. I prefer to have a circle for the opening, this one is like a rect. race track. I think it will work fine.
I also have the aileron servo and retract installation complete for the right wing. I cut channels for servo lead and air line. I will cover the channels with a balsa stick but leave room on the bottom side to allow for installation or removal. I also had some dings in the foam and some ripples due to a somewhat shakey cut with the wire. I wanted to see if I could fill those voids with spackle (OneTime) prior to epoxying the skins and make sure the bond was positive. I took a scrap piece of foam, laid on a coat of spackle, sanded and spread a thin coat of 30 min. Z-Poxy and applied a piece of balsa sheet. I tried to pull the skin loose, you can see the results in the pic. Next chore, work on the other wing and add the chin block.
Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

I wouldn't use spackle to fill the core. If it is plasticized, in time the sheeting will delaminate. If the spackle/sheeting doesn't delaminate, the spackle/foam will come loose. I can't see any reason why spackle would want to adhere to foam long term. You are better off sanding the cores until they are smooth. If you wind up with an airfoil which is 0.5% thinner so be it. Just make sure your two cores are sanded evenly.

Something I haven't tried yet but intend to is to use some milled fibers in my laminating epoxy on the next wing. This might increase the weight of the mixture slightly (perhaps not, don't know which is heavier; glass or epoxy - probably epoxy) but it should produce an even nicer and stronger bond to the foam. Epoxy becomes brittle in time and glass mixed into it should help to keep it bonded - just a theory though.

Don't forget to make a slightly wider/deeper channel for the retract strut, you don't want it to bind against the wing should it bend slightly on takeoff. I would also open up the retract body well so it can be sheeted with some 1/16" balsa. Makes for a nice & clean body well which is easier to finish (I dislike spraying paint directly on to foam).

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

Thanks for the thoughts, David. I am not sure I agree with your analysis re: One Time spackle. I have done a ton of painting houses in summers and as a contractor for the 15 years after teaching. I have found that spackle remains pretty durable especially with a coat of epoxy on it. I realize your concern is the reaction between spackle and foam.
I know when I was removing some excess spackle from the foam it was holding very well. As for time, I can not comment. But realizing my flying skills, the shelf life of many of my planes is rather short. But, the areas where there is spackle, those can be sanded and can remove most of the One Time. I have to work on my foam wing cutting. I have been using laminate for my templates and when I pull the wire across the template, I often feel some resistance. Wouldn't plywood be even more troublesome? Or do you wax the top of the template? Grabbing at straws here!
One neat technique I just used to cut out a wheel well for the retracts: I made up a small U shaped piece of wire and attatched it to a piece of lite ply with some 4-40 screws and washers (much like you would make a lot of small foam cutters). I then cut a balsa template a bit undersized from the U piece of wire, turned on the cutter and scribed the wire around the balsa. That gave me a circular trough about 1/4" wide. I then used another wire tool but wider and cut out the remaining foam core. Actually worked pretty good. I suspect there is an easier way, but this one kind of evolved. I then cut a 1/32" lite ply and lined the bottom of the well. Tomorrow I will soak a piece of 1/16" balsa in water with a bit of ammonia and wrap it around a similar size cup as the well and then epoxy it in. Paint it black. The retract has been fitted with the wheel and everything seems lined up.
Got the chin block glued in place and will do some shaping tomorrow. So, how was your day?
Tim

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

David: you probably spotted my oversight in positioning the trough for my air hose. Right, it is right in line with the wheel well. WELL, I guess I will have to 'snake'it around the well. Which basically means once I install it, it probably is not going to come out. Not a good idea, huh? Ideally, one would like a straight shot, cut how do you do that with the wheel well in the same line? Eeee gads! Can't this be simple?

R_G

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Tim,

Maybe it's just the angle of the photo, but it looks like you have an awful lot of down thrust in your engine setup? Do you have a way to measure the angle? Even a simple protractor could be used.

Ralph

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

no worries with this. That channel you cut for the line will actually diseapper when you cut the trough for the strut. Given it is a 5-32 (or 3-16) wire strut, you don't need a super large well for it, but it pays to oversize it slightly than end up with something that is too tight - a little play helps.

The air hose can exit through the top of the wing right about where your 1/32 ply plate is shown just in front of the nipple on the cylinder. You can run the plumbing along the top of the wing so that it exits near the center top where you want it. You can make a rectangular duct in the top of the wing which will get a thin splice of 1/16" prior to sheeting the core. Alternatively, you can also run the line inside the retract well and just tape it down to the bottom of the well around the axle. You then can run a thin plastic tube from the base of the wheel well to the root of the core to duct the hose. It just depends whether you want your hose visible and easy to access or prefer a cleaner look.

Oh, yes, what Ralph said - looks pretty serious - 5 degrees maybe?

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

R_G and David: I think I might agree with you re: thrust angle. 2 degrees is so slight. Not even sure I could detect it with the eye...so if it looks that obvious it is probably too much. When you mention : datum line are you referring to both a lateral view as well as a top view. This seems to make sense to me. So, if I am initiating a down thrust of 2 degrees, my thinking is I would copy the datum line from a lateral view of the plans onto the fuse and take a reading (protractor I guess) from that...? Is there another way?
Same would hold true for right thrust....?
Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

the datum line is often the thrust line although in the case of the Curare I don't recall whether these coincide. In any case, the plans will have a datum (a common reference point) about which you can measure offsets. This might be the top of the fuse before the curved portion of the decks begins. The datum is meant to be a horizontal reference off which you can measure things like incidence and engine thrust angles.

As you say, transfer it to the fuse sides and use a spirit level to make sure the datum is horizontal. You then measure offset of the engine with respect to this level point.

The datum in usually of relevance in the side view since the datum in the top view is the fuse centerline. If you think of two sections (planes) going through these datums (one horizontal and the other vertical), they will intersect. I seem to recall that the Curare has this intersection at the thrust line (that is, the engine crankshaft at 0-0 sits on this line prior to introducing offsets to compensate for torque).

If you need to extend the datum along the fuse side because it curves in at the nose, use a light straight edge to extend it.

If your FW us at 90 degrees to the datums, then you probably only need a washer or two for the offset angles. If you have only one washer at the moment, your FW is likely not vertical - the downthrust looks too extreme.

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

I should probably e-mail Don at Eureka and ask if the FW already is set for 2 degrees of down, but that would have had to be something he added since the plans indicate a 2 degree down set. Does that make sense? If that was the case, perhaps no washers are needed. However, the thrust offset of 3 degrees to the right would then follow suit, I would think. But when I placed the engine (attatched to the mount) on the FW it looked like it was at zero, thus a washer on the left side is called for...or perhaps 2? Actually, I tried 2 and that was way too much..probably more like 5 degrees. I will do some more tinkering and measuring. Thanks again.
Tim

doxilia

My Feedback: (3)

Tim,

it doesn't help much to talk about offsets here and there without having a 0 degree reference. Either your FW was installed per plans with both the down and right thrust or it was installed square to the fuse sides - both vertically and horizontally. For a 0-0 (right-down) setup, the FW wants to be square to the thrust line and perpendicular to the work bench (assuming it is flat). There is nothing that one can "build in" to a firewall to introduce engine offset, it is in how you install the FW with respect to the fuse sides. The only thing that can be done to aid in introducing the FW offset is to bevel the edges to the correct angle so that when it is installed at the, say, 2-3 degree offsets, then, when you mount your engine, no spacers (washers) are needed.

You should remove your engine and check whether your FW is square with respect to the bench (this is for down thrust offset) as well as square to the thrust line. If it isn't, you might have accidentally introduced excessive angles already into the FW installation and using washers to further offset the engine is resulting in what the picture seems to depict. You may actually need to introduce washer on the opposite side to counteract excessive built-in offset.

I find that the only reliable way to build in offset angles when installing a FW is to actually measure and mark the fuse sides for down thrust angle as well as where it should be bonded with respect to each side. Of course this is much easier to do when the fuse has yet to be framed up. In the absence of this, it can be somewhat tricky to get those angles right. The FW side edge lines on the fuse sides will tell you where exactly the FW should be bonded. You then merely mount your engine flush against the FW by placing it in the appropiate corner in the upper right quadrant of the FW (when looked at from the front).

A protractor like Ralph suggested would help, you'll be able to measure it rather than eye balling it. It's pretty hard to gauge 2-3 degrees. 30, 45 or 90 are obviously a little easier.

David.

mmiller1

My Feedback: (75)

Thanks for the newest information, David. I believe I have the offsets corrected however I realize that getting to the underside of the Sig mount with a nylock is going to be troublesome. J
Such tight spaces. So here is my solution: drill and tap the Sig mounts (which are the plastic type) for an 8-32 hex bolt. I may be able to put nylocks on the front two bolts but the rear may not work. Is this going to be a problem. I have used tapped threads on these kinds of mounts before, but I usually add a nylock. Crazy question: will thread lock adhere to these plastic mounts?
Next Q: I realize now I should have mounted my nose gear retract a bit deeper into the recess. I forgot about the steering arm! So, the steering arm is just a tad below the bottom of the fuse.(hope that makes sense). I have never installed a nose gear retract before.....do you use a pull-pull system going back to the rudder servo? I would think this is the only system that would work. How could you use a solid wire? When the unit retracts, what ever is attatched to it has to be flexible and bend with the nose gear.
So.....you tought you were getting off easy!

R_G

My Feedback: (1)

Tim,

DO NOT use thread locking compound on plastic! It will make the plastic brittle and could cause a failure. Don't ask how I know this!

Instead use split lock washers under the heads of the bolts.

RG