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Welcome to Club SAITO !

Old 08-08-2012, 05:11 AM
  #22926  
SrTelemaster150
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FA91S Stored 14 Years After Exclusive Use With 100% Synthetic Oil, Oh the Horror!

I ran this Saito FA91S on Cool Power 15% fuel W/100% synthetic lube.

After running about 2 gallons of fuel through it, the plane it was mounted on was totaled after loosing radio contact & going in level through some picked corn stubble.

The engiune did not make ground contact & I removed it to instal in a new airframe. I did not do any cleaning other than a quick exterior spray down & wiping.

Since I was planning on putting it back into service quickly I did not use any after run oil as is my practice except for season end storage.

Right after the mishap I had an opportunity to re-locate & the engine was forgotten & to make a long story short, it was stored in an interior closet for 14 years.

When I recently took up the hobby again I finished the airplane that the 91 was to be mounted in & after checking to see that the engine was free, I did some bench testing & the engine ran fine turning 9000 RPM W/a Graupner 13 3/4 X 8 prop.

Alas, I soon put the engine straight in @ WOT (soft ground) when the plane snaprolled from about 20' altitude.

Since there was no obviouse external damage other than a destroyed wood prop, I gave the engine a thorough cleaning. R&R the carb/intake & fired it up after converting it to C&H spark ignition. the engine seemed to be fine, turning 10,500 RPM W/a Zinger 15 X 4 wood prop but after several test runs tuning the EI, I noticed some oil leaking from the front seal & the prop hub seemed hot.

I tore the engine down & found that the front bearing was damaged, probably from impact. That seemed to be the only damage.

After wiping the varnish from the crank & main bearing W/an acetone soaked wrag, I took this picture of the main bearing..


There was some slight corrosion from the long storage W/O after run oil, but the rear bearing seemed perfectly fine. There is a very thin coating of oxide on the counterweight & crank snout just ahead of the main bearing seat, but nowhere near what people would make you believe would be the result of my inadvertant neglect after running 100% synthetic lubes.

Now, before you castor addicts start critisizing me for my obvious neglect, let me make one thing perfectly clear. I admit that I should not have stored an engine W/O liberally applying after run oil to the internals, but that's not the point.

The point is that the horror stories about corrosion from not using castor in the fuel are pretty well busted. At least as far as Cool Power fuel is concerned.

Furthermore there is virtually no carbon build up in the top end. Granted, this engine probably has only had about 3 gallons of fuel through it, but I have had similar lack of heavy carbon deposites in my FA150 that had considerably more use.





A little rubbing of the thumb on the piston crown removed most of the combustion film

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Old 08-08-2012, 07:04 AM
  #22927  
Hobbsy
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I painted this early Saito .80 with NAPA 1500 degree header paint and so far so good. It seems to be durable paint and shines nice too.
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:46 AM
  #22928  
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My comment about the late Bill Robison not cutting corners came out harsh and I didn't intend that.

I use castor in every engine. I don't use ARO (yet). I've only encountered rust once and that was an engine I bought from a guy. I used Coolpower at the time, so the engine only burned synthetics its whole life. I think that if you read day in and day out the stories of those who have rust problems and those who don't, it can seem like there is no logic to rust or the lack of it sometimes. For example, I don't use ARO and I live in a humid environment. I think everyone pretty much believes that castor helps prevent rust some, but not totally as in my case. On the other hand, there are plenty of guys who have never used castor and have never had rust.

Old 08-08-2012, 07:50 AM
  #22929  
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If WR used BBQ paint he would have only used it once, I painted this MERCO .50 muffler with TrueValue BBQ paint and here is what castor did to it. Those streaks used to be real purty like the airflow lines on an airliner but they have gotten messed up.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:02 AM
  #22930  
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Thankyou Dr. I have three planes with Saitos on them ready to go, an RCM 40 with an old Saito FA .40, an Alpha 60 with a Saito .65 and the Goldberg Tiger 120 with a Saito 1.50 on with C&H Ignition. I am equally anxious to get back on my Harley.
Old 08-08-2012, 08:36 AM
  #22931  
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ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

If WR used BBQ paint he would have only used it once, I painted this MERCO .50 muffler with TrueValue BBQ paint and here is what castor did to it. Those streaks used to be real purty like the airflow lines on an airliner but they have gotten messed up.

A lot has to do W/preperation. I had similar results W/Harley Davidson case paint if bead blasting or some other form of "etching" was't used before painting. If proper adhesion is achieved, it seems to last forever & is impervious to anything I have seen so far. One thing I did find is that there is no "touching up" after the cases have been cured fully & exosed to oil/grime". Even washing in "solvents" didn't make for good adhesion over the old finish. Some sort of stripping to get down to bare "etched" metal was required for adhesion. I guess time will tell if glow fuel will detroy the Rustoleum BBQ finish.

To be honest, my long soaks in DPD didn't affect the case finish nor did an overnight soak in a weak viegar solution. When I added more vinegar to bring up the acidity, it etched the case (as well as removed every last trace of gaskets & varnish/oxides) & as I stated, that is what I was looking for as the case had streaked stains from nearly a 55 gallon drum of fuel useage & neglect as far as storage conditions.

Not sure if True Value BBQ paint is the same as Rustolem, but I do know that when my local True Value store tried to sell me their brand as a substitute, there was something about the spec's (as far as the can label gives them) that made me pass & continue my search for Rustoleum product. I found it @ Home Depot.
Old 08-08-2012, 08:52 AM
  #22932  
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i knew that would be open for jokes, in fact, i myself was going to say something. on another note, question for you all, how do you all like to set the low speed needle on the saito. i will tell you why i ask, when i was removing the saito 125 from the plane, i removed the throttle horn from the carb, however, before doing so, i was turning the "flat head screw" on the center of the carb horn, i soon realized this was the LSN. since reassembly of the engine, i have had to play with LSN, but don't know what is optimal, i tell you what i did: i reved full speed, and set HSN, making sure it was not too lean or too rich, then i put in idle, with trim all the way up, then i turned the LSN clockwise, til i heard engine rev up, afterwhich, i then lowered the trim further, to decrease the RPM. hope this does not confuse you all. whenever i "leaned" the LSN, i would then rev up, to make sure, there was still good transition, and no loss of rpm at WOT. just a poll, how do you all like to tune the LSN? do you do LSN 1st and then HSN?
ORIGINAL: rowdyjoe

Let's see now ....

Orthobird is an Orthopedic surgeon and loves working on engines and Lopflyers is a Pelvic surgeon and can't do squat with engines ...which reminds me of my buddy the Proctologist who has a crappy opinion of engines painted, tainted, boiled, roasted, tinted, shiny, or flat(ulent).

RJ

ps. no offense intended, just a poor attempt to get a laugh, grin, smile, or .....?


Old 08-08-2012, 08:57 AM
  #22933  
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Dr. OB, you being in the business I can say its nice having my bicep back up where it belongs, I lose the 5 lb. lift limit on Sept 4th so I can fly again, my flight box weighs considerably more than that. I will fly this prop on the Tiger 120.
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Old 08-08-2012, 09:30 AM
  #22934  
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you must have had a reattachment!! also, equally important is the movement of pronation. so take it easy there, dont overpronate!!
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

OB, you being in the business I can say its nice having my bicep back up where it belongs, I lose the 5 lift limit on Sept 4th so I can fly again, my flight box weighs considerably more than that.
Old 08-08-2012, 10:21 AM
  #22935  
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"Overpronate"

That isn't something sexual, is it? One must be careful in our senior years.

Bob
Old 08-08-2012, 11:12 AM
  #22936  
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Thanks Dr., actually I was doing the "pronation" excersizes without knowing what it was. I am doing them with a 5lb weight now. When I raise my arm to the side and the front I do half with hand horizontal to the ground and half with the thumb up, the second time later in the day I do half with the palm up and half thumb up.

Thanks for the excellent videos, we don't get them that clear or still very often, I guess you already figured out the 1.25 is a 9,000 rpm engine no matter how you prop it. Its a torquey workhorse.
Old 08-08-2012, 12:35 PM
  #22937  
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LOL, pronate and supinate are the movements of the radius and ulna when they "twist" around each other. when you supinate, if your elbow is bent at 90 degrees, that means you bring your palm from facing down to facing up, like you are holding a bowl of soup (thus supinate). when your hand palm is facing up and you rotate it to face down, that is pronate. the action of pronation pulls on the biceps tendon insertion on the radius proximally.
ORIGINAL: retransit

"Overpronate"

That isn't something sexual, is it? One must be careful in our senior years.

Bob
Old 08-08-2012, 01:14 PM
  #22938  
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Not to add to the conflict, but as for myself I never related castor to corrosion protection. IMO the fuel/oil mix are considered for run operation only and the more it is cleaned out at the end of a flying session the better.

I understand the benefits of synthetic. My own use of a castor/synth mix is for protection against the chance for a lean run or overheat, the situation where a full synthetic will collapse. As more engines are mounted scale and cowled the opportunity for overheating are increased. I just like a little extra insurance and accept the mess. This is a personal preference only and one I have to admit is likely skewed from the fact castor was all that was available when I started in this hobby.

It is not the oil that contributes to corrosion, but the nitro in the fuel that remains in the case at the end of a flying session. Due to that I imagine the nitro content will also have a direct affect on how quickly and how aggressively it will occur. Another problem will be any fuel remaining in the tank and feed lines as temp changes during transport and/or storage will cause the system to "Breathe" and can introduce fresh fuel to the motor. This means all your careful after run treatments can become moot.

One other thing I have not read is the use of SS bearings will only prevent or reduce the corrosion there. ALL other ferrous surfaces will still be vulnerable, such as the crank, valvetrain, etc.
Old 08-08-2012, 01:17 PM
  #22939  
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Well Dr., being a "human" mechanic and a Saito mechanic are similar in that it's just systems working in harmony. My wife has a Tee shirt that says, " I am a beautifully working human machine." How many Saitos do you have so far?
Old 08-08-2012, 01:34 PM
  #22940  
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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

A lot has to do W/preperation. I had similar results W/Harley Davidson case paint if bead blasting or some other form of ''etching'' was't used before painting. If proper adhesion is achieved, it seems to last forever & is impervious to anything I have seen so far.

To be honest, my long soaks in DPD didn't affect the case finish nor did an overnight soak in a weak viegar solution.
Prep is everything. I used to sand blast Harley tanks and frames, and other metal surfaces. We used fine sand and very small nozzles. Nothing beats the prep as long as you wear gloves when handling the bare metal if you are painting or priming.

Most of the time, you get lucky with acidity. It's ugly when you don't.
Old 08-08-2012, 02:32 PM
  #22941  
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3, gk100, fa125a, FG36
ORIGINAL: Hobbsy

Well Dr., being a "human" mechanic and a Saito mechanic are similar in that it's just systems working in harmony. My wife has a Tee shirt that says, " I am a beautifully working human machine." How many Saitos do you have so far?
Old 08-08-2012, 02:47 PM
  #22942  
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Here in FNQ and also in Malaysia I have found that water in the fuel and left behind in the engine combined with residue methanol are the prime causes of corrosion no matter what oil you use.  We used to get so much moisture (water) in fuel (if the container was left open to the elements) that it would form cellulose like strings and block the needle valve.  I once did an experiment and placed 500cc's of 20% nitro fuel in an open container on the hanger floor, humidity 100% (you could see it in the air, it was at night), after 1 hour the weight of the fuel had increased 10%, all of which was confirmed as water by subjecting the mixture to the freeze test.
My solution up here is to run the engines dry at the end of the day, used closed loop fueling systems during the summer on the coast, sore engines with a bit of pure oil or ARO (usually ATF, MIL spec 5056) and block all entry points such as carby and exhaust, this is also done at the end of the day.  And oh yes have a spare set of bearings available for each type engine that I have (not as many as you might think).
Finally Hobby King have an interesting bearing removal tool that my old mentor is testing for me as I write this for those who are interested, more later
Old 08-08-2012, 03:32 PM
  #22943  
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Well now that I saw Orthobird working himself on his planes I want to do the same, instead of paying someone at the field to do it for me.
I have a problem though. I have projects;

1. Change the engine on my Yak 54, while the Saito 100 goes back to Horizon.
2. Open holes in the Sbach cowling to access the HS and LS needles, also I need to move some electronics forward since its tail heavy.
3. Tighten and locktie the muffler in my Extra300.

Well today I had 4 free hours in the afternoon and guess what I did. Yes went to the field and flew my 70 Revolver 5 times.
I just hate to spend a nice flying afternoon in my garage fixing when I can be outside flying.

Helpppppp 
Old 08-08-2012, 03:59 PM
  #22944  
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I have a question about a satio 50,the intake manifold were it goes into the head how does it seal into the head???? I found the o-ring in the carb that seals the lower end of the int. but i cant see anything in the head???? What am i missing????
Old 08-08-2012, 04:19 PM
  #22945  
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ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

FA91S Stored 14 Years After Exclusive Use With 100% Synthetic Oil, Oh the Horror!

I ran this Saito FA91S on Cool Power 15% fuel W/100% synthetic lube.

After running about 2 gallons of fuel through it, the plane it was mounted on was totaled after loosing radio contact & going in level through some picked corn stubble.

The engiune did not make ground contact & I removed it to instal in a new airframe. I did not do any cleaning other than a quick exterior spray down & wiping.

Since I was planning on putting it back into service quickly I did not use any after run oil as is my practice except for season end storage.

Right after the mishap I had an opportunity to re-locate & the engine was forgotten & to make a long story short, it was stored in an interior closet for 14 years.

When I recently took up the hobby again I finished the airplane that the 91 was to be mounted in & after checking to see that the engine was free, I did some bench testing & the engine ran fine turning 9000 RPM W/a Graupner 13 3/4 X 8 prop.

Alas, I soon put the engine straight in @ WOT (soft ground) when the plane snaprolled from about 20' altitude.

Since there was no obviouse external damage other than a destroyed wood prop, I gave the engine a thorough cleaning. R&R the carb/intake & fired it up after converting it to C&H spark ignition. the engine seemed to be fine, turning 10,500 RPM W/a Zinger 15 X 4 wood prop but after several test runs tuning the EI, I noticed some oil leaking from the front seal & the prop hub seemed hot.

I tore the engine down & found that the front bearing was damaged, probably from impact. That seemed to be the only damage.

After wiping the varnish from the crank & main bearing W/an acetone soaked wrag, I took this picture of the main bearing..



There was some slight corrosion from the long storage W/O after run oil, but the rear bearing seemed perfectly fine. There is a very thin coating of oxide on the counterweight & crank snout just ahead of the main bearing seat, but nowhere near what people would make you believe would be the result of my inadvertant neglect after running 100% synthetic lubes.

Now, before you castor addicts start critisizing me for my obvious neglect, let me make one thing perfectly clear. I admit that I should not have stored an engine W/O liberally applying after run oil to the internals, but that's not the point.

The point is that the horror stories about corrosion from not using castor in the fuel are pretty well busted. At least as far as Cool Power fuel is concerned.

Furthermore there is virtually no carbon build up in the top end. Granted, this engine probably has only had about 3 gallons of fuel through it, but I have had similar lack of heavy carbon deposites in my FA150 that had considerably more use.





A little rubbing of the thumb on the piston crown removed most of the combustion film.



I think the real Horror Story is that after two gallons of fuel you're having to take the engine apart to replace the front bearing. You said "the engine did not make "ground contact" so it didn't get hurt when the model went down in the corn field.

Probably ran it FAT for the first gallon, breaking it in correctly and all. You still need to break the engine in with Cool Power fuel, Don't You?

I don't know about you but I hate to needlessly disassemble my engines or have to paint them if I do.

"Cool Power Fuel", I'm Happy you're Happy with it but I'm not using it.



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Old 08-08-2012, 04:29 PM
  #22946  
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"cruel power"? Not in my Saitos. I use Omega[:-]
Old 08-08-2012, 05:00 PM
  #22947  
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Please read his post again. He stated that after a 14 year storage he put the engine in a plane and shortly after that he crashed the plane straight in at full throttle. That would make for possible engine damage. Would you not say?

Old 08-08-2012, 05:10 PM
  #22948  
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Omega 15% and a couple of oz of extra castor.
Old 08-08-2012, 05:40 PM
  #22949  
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Recycled
Old 08-08-2012, 05:45 PM
  #22950  
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Recycled

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