Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
10-15-2005 | 09:25 AM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Im having a problem with my buggy getting sideways under power and the rear end just being loose in general.Normanlly I would dial In some toe in into the rear end but storms use adjustable hubs, but Im using unknown hubs that appear to be 1 degree of toe in. Will lighter shock oil or softer springs help keep the rear end planted possibly more camber?
Im running 1k rear diff oil.
Thanks to all that reply.
Im running 1k rear diff oil.
Thanks to all that reply.
10-15-2005 | 10:07 AM
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From: Port Jefferson,
NY
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Try going to 2k in the rear diff. But before you do changes to the diff oil, you always want to try to change you suspension. SO my suggestion would be to adjust your rear camber link on the rear shock tower(via your upper rear arm). Make sure the link is in the inside hole, and move it up one hole on the tower. For instance most of the time use the inside hole. If you go to the lower hole , it will make the rear more loose and give you more rotation, and if you move up in the holes it will give you more forward bite, resulting in locking the rear in with more traction. Give it a try. If that doesn't give you enough rear traction, try giving the car more rear toe. IF that doesn't work, or you have to go past 3 degrees say, then go up to 2k in the rear diff. Let us know how it works out. If you need any more help you could always email me. What kind of car are you using ? Also make sure that you go to the most outside hole on the rear hub Carrier to get more forward bite also. But do it in the order I stated. If you running an Xray , they usually like more than 1K in the rear diff, as the ass is very light on that car. It likes 2K , or more. Give it a try, but save the diff oil change for last, as most people make the mistake to leave the suspension alone, and just change the diff oil, resulting in leaving the car with a bad suspension setup, and compensating with diff action. Talk to yah later, like I said you could always email me for help, I would be glad to help with anything.
Sincerely,
Michael
[email protected]
Sincerely,
Michael
[email protected]
10-15-2005 | 10:31 AM
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From: Southery, UNITED KINGDOM
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Hi
http://www.teamxray.com/xforum/xform...=173&setup=xb8
Sounds like the same problem I had with my XB8, try my set up link above, if you are running a XB8
Mike
http://www.teamxray.com/xforum/xform...=173&setup=xb8
Sounds like the same problem I had with my XB8, try my set up link above, if you are running a XB8
Mike
10-15-2005 | 10:43 AM
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From: Queen Creek,
AZ
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Only one other thing that Giorgi didn't mention which helped mine, I moved the rear hub forward. My suspension was dialed in the strait with the ruts and bumps and jumped great. So I didn't want to mess with it too much. I moved up the rear hubs and I'm using 3K rear diff oil and it hooks up. Try one thing at a time though and like Giorgi said, try the diff oil last. Espesially if you are running on a ruff and/or real loose track.
10-15-2005 | 09:44 PM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
I wish I was running a XB8, Im running a GS storm pro.
Giorgi Ive made the changes you listed, The rear upper arm was in a lower outer hole and was in the inside most hole on the rear hub.Sadly It started to rain just as I was going to test run so Ill let everyone know how the changes went tomorow.
I never knew that the rear arm possition has such an effect of rear end handling, but Im no expert and just learning my way around a buggy.Would there happen to be any guides on setup and theory on the net or possibly in book form?
Id like to learn not only what works but why it works and when to make changes, but I guess people work years for that.
Thanks guys
Giorgi Ive made the changes you listed, The rear upper arm was in a lower outer hole and was in the inside most hole on the rear hub.Sadly It started to rain just as I was going to test run so Ill let everyone know how the changes went tomorow.
I never knew that the rear arm possition has such an effect of rear end handling, but Im no expert and just learning my way around a buggy.Would there happen to be any guides on setup and theory on the net or possibly in book form?
Id like to learn not only what works but why it works and when to make changes, but I guess people work years for that.
Thanks guys
10-15-2005 | 11:58 PM
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From: Queen Creek,
AZ
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
ORIGINAL: Haulin bass
I wish I was running a XB8, Im running a GS storm pro.
Giorgi Ive made the changes you listed, The rear upper arm was in a lower outer hole and was in the inside most hole on the rear hub.Sadly It started to rain just as I was going to test run so Ill let everyone know how the changes went tomorow.
I never knew that the rear arm possition has such an effect of rear end handling, but Im no expert and just learning my way around a buggy.Would there happen to be any guides on setup and theory on the net or possibly in book form?
Id like to learn not only what works but why it works and when to make changes, but I guess people work years for that.
Thanks guys
I wish I was running a XB8, Im running a GS storm pro.
Giorgi Ive made the changes you listed, The rear upper arm was in a lower outer hole and was in the inside most hole on the rear hub.Sadly It started to rain just as I was going to test run so Ill let everyone know how the changes went tomorow.
I never knew that the rear arm possition has such an effect of rear end handling, but Im no expert and just learning my way around a buggy.Would there happen to be any guides on setup and theory on the net or possibly in book form?
Id like to learn not only what works but why it works and when to make changes, but I guess people work years for that.
Thanks guys
10-16-2005 | 12:14 AM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Interesting stuff, I like feeling like a Noob all over again (that means Im learning)
Anyways my track surface is fairly rough and look like this (please ignore my revo haha)
Anyways my track surface is fairly rough and look like this (please ignore my revo haha)
10-16-2005 | 12:27 AM
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From: Queen Creek,
AZ
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Looks simualr to my track.
Maybe try moving the rear hub forward. Move the 2mm spacer in front of the hub and the 3mm one behind it. That's an easy adjustment and quick to change back if it doesn't work or makes things worse. I moved my hubs forward and run 3K, mine hooks up just as good as any buggy on my track.
Tillman at my track.
Maybe try moving the rear hub forward. Move the 2mm spacer in front of the hub and the 3mm one behind it. That's an easy adjustment and quick to change back if it doesn't work or makes things worse. I moved my hubs forward and run 3K, mine hooks up just as good as any buggy on my track.
Tillman at my track.
10-16-2005 | 01:10 AM
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From: Barboursville,
VA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Thats a very common surface. I can't tell you anything about different adjustments on your buggy because I don't have any experience with it but if you have free time just look at how all of your linkages work and where there setup. Even change them (especially roll center) and see the difference that they make. More roll center will give you more negative camber roll as the suspension is compressed and gives you less of a tire contact on flat ground but more contact if your going into a berm where you need that tire to have as much contact with the berm as possible. Its something easy to test just on your work bench by putting the buggy on something flat and just seeing how your tire contacts the table with the suspension in different positions. Also lighter rear shock oil, ligher rear springs, or less anti-squat will give you more rear bite by transering more weight to the rear tires but you should really make sure your alignment and roll center is in the right places first.
Diff settings and run you in circles especially the rear because the rear is going to react different ways on throttle when you change the center diff. I'll try to find a post that I explained how the front, center, and rear diffs worked with different weight oils. If I find it I'll post it on here. Eitherway it sounds like your rear diff oil is to thin.... it always makes the rear of a buggy just feel like its swinging in the wind. I'm running 3k in rear and its doing great.
Diff settings and run you in circles especially the rear because the rear is going to react different ways on throttle when you change the center diff. I'll try to find a post that I explained how the front, center, and rear diffs worked with different weight oils. If I find it I'll post it on here. Eitherway it sounds like your rear diff oil is to thin.... it always makes the rear of a buggy just feel like its swinging in the wind. I'm running 3k in rear and its doing great.
10-16-2005 | 01:28 AM
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From: Barboursville,
VA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Found it! From about 2 months ago. I made some changes some things just weren't to clear.
Thats basically it for diff oils... I really don't know how much you knew about how the diffs worked in the first place but hopefully this will help you or anyone else looking on the thread.
Oh yeah and some things on rear toe in. More rear toe in will give you more straight ahead stability and make it harder to break the rear loose of traction but when you do break the rear end loose its going to break loose harder and its going to snap back when you regain traction... its really not good for flat tracking.
Less rear toe in will give you less straight ahead stability and less rear traction. It will make it easier for the rear end to break loose but it will be a lot smoother and easier to control when you are in a slide.
ORIGINAL: Little Stampy
Front- thicker gives you less steering responce off throttle and better on throttle "posi" traction pull out of corners because of the even power to both wheels and lighter oil gives lots of off throttle steering responce but less front wheel bite out of the corners because the power gets thrown to the wheel with the least traction.
Center- thicker gives more 4wd which can give you some under steer because the rear is pushing the front tires a long to much but great drive with all 4 wheels accelerating the buggy hard and thinner oil will give you a lot of power to the front wheels so it pulls the buggy around on the throttle more giving you good on throttle steering but lacks a little acceleration because mainly the front tires are pulling instead of all 4 digging.
Rear- thicker will give you understeer off the throttle because of the resistance between each wheel spining to the other but as long as your on the throttle and have the tires broken loose of traction it will of corse bring the rear of the buggy around but you can't always break the tires loose like that which can make handling inconsistant... thinner oil will give you quick steering because of the low resistance that will let each wheel spin however fast they need to and it will give you a hard time to break both tires loose because all of the power goes to the tire with the least traction which is the inside tire. thinner rear oil tends to make the buggy feel like the rear is just swinging in the wind especially if you have something like the MP777 SP1 which has a whole lot of steering already but in something like a hyper 7 which normally has understeer it works pretty well in it unless you like that understeer.
Front- thicker gives you less steering responce off throttle and better on throttle "posi" traction pull out of corners because of the even power to both wheels and lighter oil gives lots of off throttle steering responce but less front wheel bite out of the corners because the power gets thrown to the wheel with the least traction.
Center- thicker gives more 4wd which can give you some under steer because the rear is pushing the front tires a long to much but great drive with all 4 wheels accelerating the buggy hard and thinner oil will give you a lot of power to the front wheels so it pulls the buggy around on the throttle more giving you good on throttle steering but lacks a little acceleration because mainly the front tires are pulling instead of all 4 digging.
Rear- thicker will give you understeer off the throttle because of the resistance between each wheel spining to the other but as long as your on the throttle and have the tires broken loose of traction it will of corse bring the rear of the buggy around but you can't always break the tires loose like that which can make handling inconsistant... thinner oil will give you quick steering because of the low resistance that will let each wheel spin however fast they need to and it will give you a hard time to break both tires loose because all of the power goes to the tire with the least traction which is the inside tire. thinner rear oil tends to make the buggy feel like the rear is just swinging in the wind especially if you have something like the MP777 SP1 which has a whole lot of steering already but in something like a hyper 7 which normally has understeer it works pretty well in it unless you like that understeer.
Oh yeah and some things on rear toe in. More rear toe in will give you more straight ahead stability and make it harder to break the rear loose of traction but when you do break the rear end loose its going to break loose harder and its going to snap back when you regain traction... its really not good for flat tracking.
Less rear toe in will give you less straight ahead stability and less rear traction. It will make it easier for the rear end to break loose but it will be a lot smoother and easier to control when you are in a slide.
10-16-2005 | 05:22 AM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Well looks like after all your help Im not going to be able to run this week, My vspecs bearings started to leak and get gritty.Seems I never get the luck of the draw when it comes to rc haha
10-16-2005 | 08:44 AM
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From: Queen Creek,
AZ
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Little Stampy,
Very good description! Perfect for new guys who want to learn the basics of how the diffs work.
FYI:
I have one of those buggies and had one of those buggies you describe. I followed the typical diff theory for years and had some success. But, what I have found is that Some Hyper buggies have benefited form running a thicker oil in the rear, even with it's lack of steering. I've seen some way out setups and they seemed to work.
So I think the rear diff is kind of starting to break the mold a little on certain buggies.
Very good description! Perfect for new guys who want to learn the basics of how the diffs work.
FYI:
I have one of those buggies and had one of those buggies you describe. I followed the typical diff theory for years and had some success. But, what I have found is that Some Hyper buggies have benefited form running a thicker oil in the rear, even with it's lack of steering. I've seen some way out setups and they seemed to work.
So I think the rear diff is kind of starting to break the mold a little on certain buggies.
10-16-2005 | 06:41 PM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Well good thing I never throw anything away, I found a suitable bearing from another block to hold me off untill my replacements show up.
With the suggest rear upper amr changes the car is much more planted and easier to drive, It still a little looser than I would like off power.This means I should thicken Up the rear oil a little as you guys have suggested, or correct me if Im wrong.My tires are a little worn(50%tread) should I get a new set before trying thicker oil?
Thanks guys
With the suggest rear upper amr changes the car is much more planted and easier to drive, It still a little looser than I would like off power.This means I should thicken Up the rear oil a little as you guys have suggested, or correct me if Im wrong.My tires are a little worn(50%tread) should I get a new set before trying thicker oil?
Thanks guys
10-16-2005 | 08:27 PM
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From: Barboursville,
VA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
ORIGINAL: J_Bone
Little Stampy,
Very good description! Perfect for new guys who want to learn the basics of how the diffs work.
FYI:
I have one of those buggies and had one of those buggies you describe. I followed the typical diff theory for years and had some success. But, what I have found is that Some Hyper buggies have benefited form running a thicker oil in the rear, even with it's lack of steering. I've seen some way out setups and they seemed to work.
So I think the rear diff is kind of starting to break the mold a little on certain buggies.
Little Stampy,
Very good description! Perfect for new guys who want to learn the basics of how the diffs work.
FYI:
I have one of those buggies and had one of those buggies you describe. I followed the typical diff theory for years and had some success. But, what I have found is that Some Hyper buggies have benefited form running a thicker oil in the rear, even with it's lack of steering. I've seen some way out setups and they seemed to work.
So I think the rear diff is kind of starting to break the mold a little on certain buggies.
Haulin bass what tires are you running? Are any parts of the tread ripped off? Normally having 50% tread will make you lose traction on looser sections because the tread isn't deep enough to dig into the dirt so instead the tire floats ontop of the dirt. So if the rear end is loose on hard pack sections where you have enough tread to dig in than the rear diff oil is to light. If not than its probly just your tires.
10-16-2005 | 09:11 PM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Well Im running crimefighters, Im going to try a new set and see what diffrence I notice.
I found this:
http://users.pandora.be/elvo/info.htm
And will give it a read tonight.
Its nice switching from MTs instead of just living with the handling I can tune it to my prefrence.
I found this:
http://users.pandora.be/elvo/info.htm
And will give it a read tonight.
Its nice switching from MTs instead of just living with the handling I can tune it to my prefrence.
10-16-2005 | 09:34 PM
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From: brisbane, AUSTRALIA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Its been a while since i've been to that site, it has been updated since i was there, but if you read through all the specific chapters just be aware that i think it was originally written for on road, and thing aren't always the same between the two, things in off road aren't always the same on different surfaces also.
But that is a very good site none the less, and it has on-road and off road specific set ups further down the page also.
[8D]
But that is a very good site none the less, and it has on-road and off road specific set ups further down the page also.
[8D]
10-17-2005 | 12:22 AM
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From: Grande Prairie, AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Hey Tyler check out this page as well. Its written for 1/10th offroad, but the same principals apply to a 1/8th buggy. Its got tons of really good stuff on it, chassis tuning, driving tips and such. What oil are you running in your centre diff? going to a lighter oil may help, something in the 5-7k range is generally good. http://rc10gt.home.bresnan.net/index.htm
btw- This is WheelNut
btw- This is WheelNut
10-17-2005 | 04:43 AM
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From: valleyview,
AB, CANADA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Hey thanks Brad. IM not quite sure whats in the center diff, It does unload to the front under power slightly.Ill probably stop in the shop sometime this week pick up some springs, oils and tires.
Alex would you suggest stiffening up my rollbar as well as the softer spring choice?
Or would that just take away any advantage in cornering I gained from going to the softer springs?I do feel the rear could be a little softer and some bumps will jump it around a bit.
Either way Its getting really hard for MTs to be apealling to me anymore, sure my truck is stupid fast(sub 9lb Vspec powered revo) but If I beat it hard(around the track) I know its going to break.That and they just dont handle good
Alex would you suggest stiffening up my rollbar as well as the softer spring choice?
Or would that just take away any advantage in cornering I gained from going to the softer springs?I do feel the rear could be a little softer and some bumps will jump it around a bit.
Either way Its getting really hard for MTs to be apealling to me anymore, sure my truck is stupid fast(sub 9lb Vspec powered revo) but If I beat it hard(around the track) I know its going to break.That and they just dont handle good
10-17-2005 | 07:09 AM
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From: Queen Creek,
AZ
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
Tires are the First thing in finding a setup!! Once a tire gets rounded, it no longer is providing optimal traction. You can have your suspension setup correctly and still have an I'll handling buggy. Get the tires on and start from there.
10-18-2005 | 04:40 PM
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From: Queen Creek,
AZ
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
I didn't notice it mentioned above, but maybe I missed it. Another possibility besides decreasing the viscosity of the rear diff fluid, would be to raise your front roll center (move inner tie rod mounts vertically up one hole). Then re-adjust your tie rod lengths to get the same camber you had previously. Also, you could try softer front springs, however this may alter the vehicle's jump/bump handling.
10-18-2005 | 06:24 PM
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From: Placentia, CA
RE: Increaseing rear end traction without increasing toe in?
If you guys are trying to increase forward traction then you can lighten up the center differential fluid. This is what I do when I am "loose" on power.
Going to a heavier center differential fluid, tends to make your buggy have more direct power to the ground, which is good on some surfaces, but on some loose surfaces it can cause your car to drift or want to be loose, on power.
; )
Going to a heavier center differential fluid, tends to make your buggy have more direct power to the ground, which is good on some surfaces, but on some loose surfaces it can cause your car to drift or want to be loose, on power.
; )
