Scotty740,

Thanks a buch for the pic. From the looks of it I am still a little on the rich side. I flew a few more tanks tonight after resetting my pitch curve to give a top end pitch of +10 degrees, and it did seem to make it there, but at a loss of rotor speed. I wm just going to burn a few more gallons before I try to do anymore with it. I flies pretty well now, and I want to give it time to break in.(Bill, I did listen )

I looked at that muffler, and it sure does look sweeeeeet. As soon as I get some spare hobby money I will look into getting it.

Bill,

I think that I may need to re-measure my throttle position, It seems to run a lot higher RPMS at hover than in forward flight. It might be that I am still a little past 1/2 throttle at hover. I am now running -5 to + 10 on my Idle up and will try to keep it there. I put in a new plug and got a fresh gallon ready for this weekend. I will let you know how it is going once Iget a few ore gallons through her.

Thanks for all the replies everyone.....

OK,
I changed the pitch curve to have 10 deg top pitch and ran it for awhile that wat. It still seemed to loose a little on the top end, so I made the needle changes that Bill talked about and tried it again. It is much better now. t holds the 10 degrees with no problem, and flies really well. I have a half gallon through this way so far, and the plug looks really nice this time, a nice tan look to the electrode, and no real big carbon build up yet.

I did however notice that once the tank got down to about half it would run a littel stronger. Does it take this long to get the engine up to temp, or is it just starting to run a little lean from the level of the tank being low. I usually stop at about half tank (10 minutes), but a few time I came in a little later than that and the engine was running a lot higher at hover than when I started the flight.

Brian,
When you tried it with 10 degrees and the blade speed bled off, did you richen or lean it until it pulled it properly?

Your experience is giving me enthusiasm to fire mine up again!

Si

Brian, the reason you notice the higher rpms at the end of the flight is the total dynamic head still has an effect on these engines even though they have a regulated fuel system...With the new composite flapers its not as noticeble...Its normal to see this when you are running on the edge...Not a bad thing...Your not going to hurt the engine, its just that the richer settings hide this condistion, because of the cooling effect of the fuel....
What I do here is just try to richen without loosing any power, and notice the plug...These are Very Very small adjustments..Like 1/32...
Remember you lean the engine, so you must first redo your throttle curve just a tad .....
Do not go any leaner on the needles...
You need to just fly the thing now, and not worry so much about the power...I would still take it easy til you get atleast 5 gals thru it..
Regards,
Bill

Secret Squirl,

Just read back a few posts you will see that Bill advised me to FIRST increase the pitch on the topend of the curve, whitch I did, and adjusted the rest of the curve while I was at it. Since this caused the motor to loose speed I then went to the second recomendation. This was to take the High speed needle to 1 turn and the low speed to 1-1/4 turns. this helped a lot. The rotor speed still seems to decay alttle at the top end pitch, but it still pulls along nicely. It does not compare to my Sport 60 yet, but I really like the way the heaver gasser flies. I am noticing imporvements each time I fly this thing, and it really is a nice smooth machine. I am still contemplating getting rid of my Spot 60 and finding another Z230.

Bill,

Thanks again, I will keep flying it like it is for awhile. I did some adjustments on the throttle ATV's tonight and was able to get them to 75/76. thethrottle difinately get there before the pitch now. I will be tring this tonight. One thing though, since I made the cahnge to the low at 1-1/4 I did get more vibration at idle than before, should I richen the low end a little to get rid of this?
I have been taking it easy so far, no more than 10 minutes per flight with a good cool down in between, and nothing more than a mild stall turn so far, with variations in pitch along the way(some full pitch and some 3/4 pitch flying)

Thanks again guys, Man is this fun or what!!!

Learn from others mistakes. Check the screw that holds the horns on the servos. Extra vibes from gasser will cause screw to back out. If you lose the elev you loose it all. I would include picture but IT AIN"T PRETTY. Do any of you have any good ideas for securing the screw? Locktite maybe? WLJ

I have been in the habit of checking everythig on my Z230 before each flight. I physically touch every link and make sure that they are firmly seated. I also check each and every servo for proper movement. After every day of flying I take an allen wrench and check all the allen screws for tightness.

About a mont ago my radio started to have problems in hte elevator, and the cyclic controls, when the radio was turned on they would move, but on a fraction of the actual movement. If I had not gone through my pre-flight inspection like I do, it would have been really bad. The radio was repsired and all is well now.

As far as the screws that hold the control horns on, I have not yet had any of them come loose, but I do not use the standard horn screw. I use the JR output support arms, and these coe with a different screw. I end up having to re-tap the output gears of the Futaba servos, but it is replaced with a metal fine pitch ball that the support link attaches to. I have a good pcture of it on my web site under Helicopter Misc page. these things are great at reducing the shear load put on the servo output gears.

I do not think that you could use loctite since from what I have been told it detriorates the plastic, and super glue would make it hard to remove. But whit I think would work is a little dab of permatex Blue or black RTV gasket maker. This will hold the screw really tight, but also allow for its removal. I always have a tube of it laying around, and you can get it at any Auto parts store. Give that a try it cant hurt.

Brian said:
I made the cahnge to the low at 1-1/4 I did get more vibration at idle than before, should I richen the low end a little to get rid of this?

Yes, the timing is fixed, so idle will be a little ruff...You can richen the lowend at 1/32 intervels till you see a change in hover power..Leave your high where it is......If its idling high, move your trim to keep it low as possible..Only adjust needles for hover, and wide open...
If you see visible vibration in a hover on the heli(assuming everything is balanced) then its to lean on the lowend..
Never change the needles to you have cleared the engine, and it has warmed up...

Regards,
Bill

OK,
The vibration was at idle while sitting on the ground, once it was at hover speed it cleaned up. So I will leave them alone for now. I should get some more time today to run it again.

Thanks

Bill,

I have another question for ya.

While flying the other day, I noticed that at hover speed the helicopter had a weird vibration, slow and rythmic(sp?). I made the descision to richen the low end needle a little. This was after the helicopter had been flying so I am sure it was good and hot. Was this the correct thing to do?

Also I noticed that while doing nice easy wide figure 8 patterns after about 7 minutes into the flight the top end would drop off a little. For this I also richened the high speed needle a fraction. and I mean a fraction. This did seem to help smooth out the top end dropping.

Is this the way to go? The plug still looks nice and tan with no appreciable carbon buildup. Both of the adjustments were very very small, I read somewhere that when making a change if you feel it move you wnet to far

I am now trying to find a nice scale body to put on it. It is just begging for one.


Thanks

Brian said:
>Was this the correct thing to do?

Yes, if it corrected the situation...Did it stop the vibration?

The whole purpose is to run as rich as you can without screwing up the plug You can sneak up on it like your doing...Its perfectly normal to have to richen up while the engine breaks in..


>Also I noticed that while doing nice easy wide figure 8 patterns after about 7 minutes into the flight the top end would drop off a little. For this I also richened the high speed needle a fraction. and I mean a fraction. This did seem to help smooth out the top end dropping. Is this the way to go?


Yes, anytime you see a condistion that you notice a power decrease, its always safe to richen up first if your not fully use to tuning, and listening to gassers...This is what makes gassers so much fun is that it is an artform learning to operate them correctly....

I have come up with a method that will teach someone a lot about how to tune gassers...It will cost you about 100 bucks , but it will show you first hand what effects you have on the engine, when you change the needles...Go buy one of those 99.00 leaf blowers...It has a constant load on it, and you will have to break off the plastic needle locks on some models..Purpose is to keep folks from screwing the engine up, and only allow some adjustment....Come to think of it, we need them on the heli engines too hehee
Anyway, you can teach yourself alot by doing this, and feeling the effects of vibration at certain needle settings...This is what I did...One of the first experiments was to run the engine the way everyone has run them for the past 12 yrs...1 to 7/8s on the low, and 1 1/2 on the high running 5 ounces of oil...Just by holding the blower, I knew this was not the way to go, hehee
cheap education, plus you have a new tool
Regards,
Bill Meador

Hey, I have one of thoes, but the carb only has a high end needle.. I could not locate the low speed needle to save my life, but it is several years old, and maybe it is time to get a new one Any excuse to get a new tool......

Not completely, but by the time I made the change I had time for only one more flight. I am going to try to fly tonight at home, and look closer at it.

Thanks.

Any updates?
I just dusted of my Z230 and gave it a clean up and look over and set it up on my 9Z. WIll order a gyro for it shortly and have another go at setting it up.

Is yours running better now Brian?

Si

You say you have nearly 2 gallons on your engine with still not enough top end. I beleive the problem is you need to do a proper break in first with non synthetic oil and then go to Amsoil. Right now your engine is not breaking in because of the Amsoil.
Amsoil is the best oil you can use in your gasser but only after it was proper broken in.....

Are you saying that the engine will never break-in using Amsoil?

I've done several engines using Amsoil, no problem.....I've heard this before, and its not what I've found to be true from my experience..
Regards,
Bill

The purpose of a good synthetic (Amsoil) is to prevent wear on internal engine parts. The purpose of a break-in, is to cause a bit of wear to make the parts fit better.
No you will not break-in properly with synthetic it will still run OK but not as good as it could be.

Another question...
Is the Z230 the only heli out there that uses the standard Zenoah 'box' muffler? The Xcells I've seen always seem to have different exhausts (a round canister exhaust) etc.
Maybe that could be why the Z230 doesn't seem to have the punch?

What oil do you use for break-in?

On the Zenoah's you can use Lawn Boy Ashless 2 stroke oil mixed at 32:1. Get a few gallons through it.

OK..I was hoping you would let us in on this break-in system you use with gas helicopters...
I just don't think it matters..., based on what you have said, what do glow motors do for break-in...? They use synthetic...And they do break-in.....I just don't see how you can look at a picture of a rich condistion plug, with only two gallons thru it, and come up with this stuff, sorry I'm still learning, so let her Rip tatorchip)
Regards,
Bill Meador

Bill what's your thoughts on my posts on exhausts a couple of posts up? Do I have anything there you think?

Gas engines and Glow engines are two very different puppies.

You do what you want to do. There is no secret in a break-in, run a few gallons with petroleum oil mixed with gas and that's it. Then go to the Amsoil.

aerografixs said:

>Gas engines and Glow engines are two very different puppies.

You mean to tell me there is a different type of combustion, and lubrication going on in a glow? Really, I'm not trying to start anything here, just want to know where you are coming from.

I already do what I want to do on break-in..


Regards,
Bill.

SS said:
Another question...
Is the Z230 the only heli out there that uses the standard Zenoah 'box' muffler? The Xcells I've seen always seem to have different exhausts (a round canister exhaust) etc.
Maybe that could be why the Z230 doesn't seem to have the punch?

SS,
You can always see better performace with a better designed muffler than the box A certain amount of back-pressure does some good things to an engine..It seems that Bergen may have an answer for you z230 drivers out there with their new muffler...

I do like the idea of breaking the engine in with a box, to keep the back-pressure to a minimum so the needles want be so sensitive...
Regards,
Bill

Boy I must say all these good things I'm hearing about the RC230 engine is exciting me. Some body needs to figure out how to shoe horn one of these bad boys into an area where the G23 lives.

I'll be their first customer!

Si