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Kingtech G2 failsafe

Old 02-13-2020, 07:31 AM
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Afterburners
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Default Kingtech G2 failsafe

I posted a question in the kingtech forum a few days ago and a few people tried to assist but I can't seem to get a clear answer. My question is how do you setup the failsafe. There's barely a mention of it in the manual. I ran the engine once on a test stand and it ran fine. Just finished installing in the plane and need to finish engine setup but can't seem to get a solid answer. Thanks.
Old 02-13-2020, 08:12 AM
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Auburn02
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Hopefully you'll get the definitive answer you're looking for, but the way I read it there is no need to "setup the failsafe" based on what you quoted from the manual:

The only place I see where it mentions failsafe is on page 28 to teach the ECU your radio and on page 64 for diagnostic messages where it mentions that when the ECU sees a failsafe, it brings the engine to idle for .5 seconds and will hold idle for another 1.5 seconds if it continues in failsafe and then shutdown. My main thing is that the manual is well written and seems to cover everything except how to setup the failsafe


I say run it again and turn off the radio, see if it shuts down two seconds later. I'm betting it does.
Old 02-13-2020, 08:25 AM
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I agree with you and I will do that soon but right now if I turn on the plane and move trim up, display changes to trim up and ready and the LED turns on on the ECU. I turn off the radio and nothing changes. Other engines I've setup usually show a failsafe on the display at that point and you usually have to setup failsafe in the radio as well. I will take it out when it warms up here and stops raining to run it in the plane and shut the radio off. It will probably work. Just wish the manual was a little more detailed on the subject.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:13 AM
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The turbine will shut down automatically if it did not see a rx throttle signal for a few seconds (loss of rx power), you do not need to anything there. However rx failsafe also needs set and that will depend on your radio/tx. For example I use frsky and if I left the failsafe set to hold the turbine ecu would never see a loss of throttle signal if I turned off the radio so instead I program the failsafe to receiver and carry out the process of holding the failsafe button with trim down and throttle kill on to teach the receiver to go to "shutdown" on radio switch off. So you basically treat setting failsafe the same as you do for any other powered plane with your particular brand tx.

Last edited by raydar; 02-13-2020 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 02-13-2020, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by raydar View Post
The turbine will shut down automatically if it did not see a rx throttle signal for a few seconds (loss of rx power), you do not need to anything there. However rx failsafe also needs set and that will depend on your radio/tx. For example I use frsky and if I left the failsafe set to hold the turbine ecu would never see a loss of throttle signal if I turned off the radio so instead I program the failsafe to receiver and carry out the process of holding the failsafe button with trim down and throttle kill on to teach the receiver to go to "shutdown" on radio switch off. So you basically treat setting failsafe the same as you do for any other powered plane with your particular brand tx.
Right, so in that case, when your receiver goes into failsafe, the turbnine shuts down immediately, just as if you brought the throttle stick and trim all the way down. There are two problems with that, first, you get no delay from the failsafe event to turbine shutdown (AMA rules allow a 2 second delay for this action), and second, if the receiver signals comes back, the ECU is already in shutdown mode and most will not go back to running mode if that happens.

On the Jetcat ECU's, you set the failsafe setting in the receiver to be the *maximum* travel low throttle position. Then when you "learn RC" on the ECU, you set the normal low throttle position to only 80% travel. That way, when the receiver goes into failsafe, the ECU see a signal that is "out of normal range" and goes into failsafe mode, not shutdown mode. Failsafe mode has a user-adjustable delay (0 to 5 seconds, I believe) where the turbine continues to run. If the receiver signal comes back in that time, the turbine goes back to normal run mode. If it does not, it goes into shutdown mode.

The older style "Xicoy" ECUs that Jet Central, and I think Kingtech used, did not have that functionality. The newer ones might have it. The Jetcat ECUs have had that functionality since they first came out.

Bob
Old 02-13-2020, 12:13 PM
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Well if a don't have control of the model I want it to shut down instantly and am quite happy with that, I have a K70g2 and am not aware of any other failsafe features on the turbine ECU other than I described which is a auto shut down after a few seconds if no throttle signal is seen.

Quite happy to learn other options but as far as i am aware that's it with Kingtech g2 ecu.
Old 02-13-2020, 12:33 PM
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Here is a interesting Paragraph in the manual

"Once the ECU detects a loss or invalid RC signal for over 0.5 second, it sets engine power to idle, and if after another 1.5 seconds a valid signal is still not received the engine is shut down."

So I suppose one could set the rx throttle failsafe to a parameter well out of the normal running signal if your radio permits (125% throttle down for example ) and experiment with this feature to see the outcome.

I am happy with mine shutting down straight away in the event of signal loss and rx failsafe as it could still be running by the time it meets the ground with a 2 second delay before shutdown, which to me is not a preferred outcome..

edit: I see this has already been discussed, wished I had noticed, not sure what else there is to add.

Last edited by raydar; 02-13-2020 at 12:42 PM.
Old 02-13-2020, 10:34 PM
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You want the 2 second before failsafe. You do not want the turbine to shut down on the first Rxer Hold (i.e. momentary series of frame losses). Use the Kingtech default and all will be well. With all the turbines that come through our site, I don't recall anyone ever setting the failsafe at anything other than the 2 second default! KISS
Old 02-14-2020, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Len Todd View Post
You want the 2 second before failsafe. You do not want the turbine to shut down on the first Rxer Hold (i.e. momentary series of frame losses). Use the Kingtech default and all will be well. With all the turbines that come through our site, I don't recall anyone ever setting the failsafe at anything other than the 2 second default! KISS
Is there a menu in the Kingtech ECU that has any failsafe option settings?
Old 02-14-2020, 07:13 AM
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No menu option to reset the failsafe on a Kingtech that I ever seen and I think I have been at every option at one time or another.

My first 4 Jetcat RXIs = Yes. I'll check this out to see if they still do that when I put this new P-160RXI in the new L-39 if China survives the virus.
Old 02-14-2020, 09:13 AM
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Setting up turbine fail safe is not done in the ECU, it's done in your transmitter. I personally have the fail-safe for my throttle channel set to OFF, which when the receiver loses contact with the transmitter causes the servo pulse on the throttle channel to cease being output. If this continues for a couple of seconds the ECU will shut down the turbine and log the shut down code as Lost RC (or something to that effect). I consider this to be very important as ANYTIME my turbine shuts down I want to know WHY.

Another way that the ECU uses to detect loss of RC for transmitters that don't have the ability to shut off the servo pulse is to detect an "out of bounds" throttle pule width. For example, my transmitter sends a throttle pulse of 1100us for stop, 1300us for run and 1900us for full throttle. Sending a servo pulse significantly outside that range should cause the ECU to recognize a fail safe condition, shut down the turbine and log it as lost RC. So if you simply set your transmitter fail safe to send a pule to the throttle channel outside the 1100-1900us, range (from my example) such as 1000us, then that should do the trick as well.

Setting your throttle fail-safe to the shutdown value will safely kill the turbine but will simply be logged as a normal shut down. If loss of control was only the minimum duration for the ECU to shut down the turbine, depending on what you were doing at the time may leave you wondering why your turbine stopped with no useful info in you ECU log to help you understand what happened.

That's about as complete a description of how most ECUs detect fail safe as you're going to find. I personally have used both methods with multiple JETCAT and KINGTECH turbines and both work equally well.

Last edited by wfield0455; 02-14-2020 at 09:27 AM.
Old 02-14-2020, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by wfield0455 View Post
Setting up turbine fail safe is not done in the ECU, it's done in your transmitter. I personally have the fail-safe for my throttle channel set to OFF, which when the receiver loses contact with the transmitter causes the servo pule on the throttle channel to cease being output. IF this continues for a couple of seconds the ECU will shut down the turbine and log the shut down code as Lost RC (or something to that effect). I consider this to be very important as ANYTIME my turbine shuts down I want to know WHY. Some have suggested simply setting your throttle fail-safe to the turbine stop setting, which WILL safely shutdown the turbine but will simply be logged as a normal shutdown. I certainly don't want that as it simply throws away valuable information about the shut down cause. This of course assumes a brief loss of control and you eventually regain control. If you have a total, permanent loss of control I guess you wouldn't need to look to the ECU to know that.

Another way that the ECU uses to detect loss of RC for transmitters that don't have the ability to shut off the servo pulse is to detect and "out of bounds" throttle pule width. For example, my transmitter sends a throttle pulse of 1100us for stop, 1300us for run and 1900us for full throttle. Sending a servo pulse significantly outside that range should cause the ECU to recognize a failsafe condition, shut down the turbine and log it as lost RC. So if you simply set your transmitter failsafe to send something outside the 1100-1900us range to the throttle channel (from my example) such as 1000us, then that should do the trick as well.
That's as detailed and accurate a description of how most ECUs detect failsafe as you're going to find. I personally have used both methods with multiple JETCAT and KINGTECH turbines.
Thanks for your input Wayne. I've discussed that in the thread I started in the KT support forum. I've setup Jetcats and JetCentrals. Like Bob mentioned in this thread above, Jetcat has been doing the "out of the learned range" failsafe for a long time and it is explained in detail in their manuals. The Xicoy Ecu's that were used in Jetcentrals up until the last few years were a bit less detailed in how the ECU displays if it was an actual failsafe when the engine shutdown for an unknown reason. The new JetCentrals with their own ECU's will show a failsafe on the display when you turn your radio off even if the engine is not running and was just in the "ready" state. I'm sure when it warms up here enough for me to drag the plane into the backyard and run the engine, it will shutdown when I turn the radio off. I don't know what will be displayed. The KT manual tells you nothing about programming a failsafe in your radio as well as programming the pulse width to be out of the range of the "learned ECU" pulse width range. From the lack of responses in this and the other thread, I don't know what to assume when it comes to the actual functionality of the KT ECU failsafe feature or that most people care as long as the engine shutsdown but will it shutdown if you never set it up in your radio? I don't think so.
Old 02-14-2020, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by wfield0455 View Post
Setting up turbine fail safe is not done in the ECU, it's done in your transmitter. I personally have the fail-safe for my throttle channel set to OFF, which when the receiver loses contact with the transmitter causes the servo pulse on the throttle channel to cease being output. If this continues for a couple of seconds the ECU will shut down the turbine and log the shut down code as Lost RC (or something to that effect). I consider this to be very important as ANYTIME my turbine shuts down I want to know WHY.

Another way that the ECU uses to detect loss of RC for transmitters that don't have the ability to shut off the servo pulse is to detect an "out of bounds" throttle pule width. For example, my transmitter sends a throttle pulse of 1100us for stop, 1300us for run and 1900us for full throttle. Sending a servo pulse significantly outside that range should cause the ECU to recognize a fail safe condition, shut down the turbine and log it as lost RC. So if you simply set your transmitter fail safe to send a pule to the throttle channel outside the 1100-1900us, range (from my example) such as 1000us, then that should do the trick as well.

Setting your throttle fail-safe to the shutdown value will safely kill the turbine but will simply be logged as a normal shut down. If loss of control was only the minimum duration for the ECU to shut down the turbine, depending on what you were doing at the time may leave you wondering why your turbine stopped with no useful info in you ECU log to help you understand what happened.

That's about as complete a description of how most ECUs detect fail safe as you're going to find. I personally have used both methods with multiple JETCAT and KINGTECH turbines and both work equally well.
The main point to remember is that all Kingtech motor will shutdown automatically after 1.5 secs.....I have tested this on all the motor I run, for me and others.....I just take power away from the RX and 1.5 sec later the motor shutdown....

I also set up failsafe in the TX including throttle....

I should add I haven’t seen a page on the GSU which give any option to this.....either way it’s good as far as I’m concerned, if my system goes into failsafe I want the motor off....so I have less chance for my jet to fly into the next country

Last edited by Dansy; 02-14-2020 at 10:24 AM.
Old 02-14-2020, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Afterburners View Post
Thanks for your input Wayne. I've discussed that in the thread I started in the KT support forum. I've setup Jetcats and JetCentrals. Like Bob mentioned in this thread above, Jetcat has been doing the "out of the learned range" failsafe for a long time and it is explained in detail in their manuals. The Xicoy Ecu's that were used in Jetcentrals up until the last few years were a bit less detailed in how the ECU displays if it was an actual failsafe when the engine shutdown for an unknown reason. The new JetCentrals with their own ECU's will show a failsafe on the display when you turn your radio off even if the engine is not running and was just in the "ready" state. I'm sure when it warms up here enough for me to drag the plane into the backyard and run the engine, it will shutdown when I turn the radio off. I don't know what will be displayed. The KT manual tells you nothing about programming a failsafe in your radio as well as programming the pulse width to be out of the range of the "learned ECU" pulse width range. From the lack of responses in this and the other thread, I don't know what to assume when it comes to the actual functionality of the KT ECU failsafe feature or that most people care as long as the engine shutsdown but will it shutdown if you never set it up in your radio? I don't think so.
Not sure why you're still unsure what to assume. From your post it seems you understand the out of range mechanism that the ECUs use so there is nothing more to understand.The only way the ECU has to tell if the receiver has gone into fail safe is the pulse width of the throttle channel and if it goes out of range used for teach RC or goes away completely, then the ECU sees that as loss of signal and starts its shut down counter. There is nothing in the ECU to setup for fail safe, it's a built in function but for it to work you MUST configure fail safe on your RC system.

Spektrum automatically sets fail safe on your throttle channel when you bind but in order for it to work properly you must do a bit of a dance to create and "out of range" pulse width on the throttle channel. On my Jeti I can tell it to output anything I want but by default it does nothing (hold). It sounds like you already know what the ECU wants so all you need to do is figure out how to make your transmitter and receiver give the ECU what it wants. If I knew what system you're flying I may be able to help with that.
It's easy to tell if fail safe is set correctly simply by plugging a servo into your throttle channel, Set throttle to stop and observe the servo position, set throttle to idle and observe the servo position. Turn off the transmitter and see if the throttle servo moves to stop position or an even lower throttle position.If it goes to the stop position the ECU will see this as a normal shut down, if it goes lower it sees this as a signal loss and the shut down cause will be lost RC, if the servo does nothing (stays at idle or above) your turbine won't shut down at all..

Last edited by wfield0455; 02-14-2020 at 12:14 PM.
Old 02-14-2020, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by wfield0455 View Post
Not sure why you're still unsure what to assume. From your post it seems you understand the out of range mechanism that the ECUs use so there is nothing more to understand.The only way the ECU has to tell if the receiver has gone into fail safe is the pulse width of the throttle channel and if it goes out of range used for teach RC or goes away completely, then the ECU sees that as loss of signal and starts its shut down counter. There is nothing in the ECU to setup for fail safe, it's a built in function but for it to work you MUST configure fail safe on your RC system.

Spektrum automatically sets fail safe on your throttle channel when you bind but in order for it to work properly you must do a bit of a dance to create and "out of range" pulse width on the throttle channel. On my Jeti I can tell it to output anything I want but by default it does nothing (hold). It sounds like you already know what the ECU wants so all you need to do is figure out how to make your transmitter and receiver give the ECU what it wants. If I knew what system you're flying I may be able to help with that.
It's easy to tell if fail safe is set correctly simply by plugging a servo into your throttle channel, Set throttle to stop and observe the servo position, set throttle to idle and observe the servo position. Turn off the transmitter and see if the throttle servo moves to stop position or an even lower throttle position.If it goes to the stop position the ECU will see this as a normal shut down, if it goes lower it sees this as a signal loss and the shut down cause will be lost RC, if the servo does nothing (stays at idle or above) your turbine won't shut down at all..
OK, Marty does know all of that. The issue is that the KT manual does not include instructions as to how to setup the "out of range" failsafe option, nor does the Kingtech GSU have a display that shows that the ECU has detected a failsafe. Either one of those options would tell Marty that the KT ECU actually has the failsafe 2 second delay functionality, and that he's accessing it correctly (Jetcat GSU's have had a "failsafe" display since forever, and newer JC GSU's have one now).

What he's saying is that the only way he has to verify that the ECU has entered the failsafe condition vs. just a normal shutdown is to actually run the engine and turn off the transmitter. If the engine shuts down immediately, either the ECU doesn't have a failsafe mode, or he's not setup his throttle failsafe correctly to access it, but if it delays (at idle, ideally) for 2 seconds and THEN shuts down, he's good to go...

Bob

ps. Just to further elucidate, earlier "Xicoy" ECUs (like those used by older JC engines) did not have the "out of range mechanism" you describe or actually, any failsafe mode, so all you could do is failsafe the throttle channel to go to shutdown mode - with no delay. Jetcats have always had the "out of range mechanism" , Jet Central has it now, so the question is, does KingTech have it?

Last edited by rhklenke; 02-14-2020 at 01:30 PM.
Old 02-14-2020, 02:27 PM
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Forget all the above B.S. Just bind the Rxer to the transmitter, do the RC learn procedure and your Kingtech will fly and failsafe correctly!
Old 02-14-2020, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by rhklenke View Post
OK, Marty does know all of that. The issue is that the KT manual does not include instructions as to how to setup the "out of range" failsafe option, nor does the Kingtech GSU have a display that shows that the ECU has detected a failsafe. Either one of those options would tell Marty that the KT ECU actually has the failsafe 2 second delay functionality, and that he's accessing it correctly (Jetcat GSU's have had a "failsafe" display since forever, and newer JC GSU's have one now).

What he's saying is that the only way he has to verify that the ECU has entered the failsafe condition vs. just a normal shutdown is to actually run the engine and turn off the transmitter. If the engine shuts down immediately, either the ECU doesn't have a failsafe mode, or he's not setup his throttle failsafe correctly to access it, but if it delays (at idle, ideally) for 2 seconds and THEN shuts down, he's good to go...

Bob

ps. Just to further elucidate, earlier "Xicoy" ECUs (like those used by older JC engines) did not have the "out of range mechanism" you describe or actually, any failsafe mode, so all you could do is failsafe the throttle channel to go to shutdown mode - with no delay. Jetcats have always had the "out of range mechanism" , Jet Central has it now, so the question is, does KingTech have it?
Yes I'm aware that the older Jet Central ECUs didn't have this and I think I mentioned that unless I edited it out of my first post. However I have said several times that Kingtech DOES have the out of range mechanism, I have said multiple times that I use it and I've said multiple times that I've tested it and I've said multiple times it shuts the turbine down properly and logs that it was shutdown by lost RC. I own 3 Kingtechs that use the G1 ECU and 2 that use the G2 ECU and they all work as described.I guess you guys must think I'm either stupid or a lair, either way, best of luck in the future.

Old 02-14-2020, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by wfield0455 View Post
Yes I'm aware that the older Jet Central ECUs didn't have this and I think I mentioned that unless I edited it out of my first post. However I have said several times that Kingtech DOES have the out of range mechanism, I have said multiple times that I use it and I've said multiple times that I've tested it and I've said multiple times it shuts the turbine down properly and logs that it was shutdown by lost RC. I own 3 Kingtechs that use the G1 ECU and 2 that use the G2 ECU and they all work as described.I guess you guys must think I'm either stupid or a lair, either way, best of luck in the future.
Ok, let's not go there. I appreciate everyones help. I believe I got it working earlier today but was in a rush(Valentine's Day dinner) so I didn't have time to post. I know I did this already yesterday but I think I may know why it didn't work and I will check tommorow. So I am using an AR Smoothflite and I believe it was Len who asked me to check about setting failsafe in the Smoothflite yesterday or the day before and it didn't seem to change things. I had "learned" the ECU with throttle from -100 to +100 and then extended my endpoints and set failsafe in the Smoothflite to somewhere around -125. Today I believe I maxed it out to -140 and now when I move trim up to start and the GSU shows "ready" and the blue LED turns on, the GSU will change to "TH Off" and the LED turns off when I turn the TX off. Yesterday there was no change when I turned the TX off so I think I needed to go further out of the learned range. Will check on that. Sunday it should be in the 40's here so I will do an actual start and turn off the radio and see if goes to idle for the two seconds before shutting down. Also interested in seeing if it shows a failsafe or if I have to go into the logs to find out. Thanks again for everyones help.
Old 02-14-2020, 08:28 PM
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New to Kingtech turbines. After testing the failsafe auto shutdown will the turbine complete a cool down with the TX off or will I have to do something.
Old 02-15-2020, 01:47 AM
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When I tested my K140F and K80G1, I turned off the radio to get it to fail safe, the engine stopped and it started the cooling down sequence right away, I turned the radio back on, I don't recall it not doing it.

Last edited by CARS II; 02-15-2020 at 01:50 AM.
Old 02-15-2020, 06:15 AM
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Thanks!
Old 02-16-2020, 06:53 PM
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So ran engine in the plane today and turned off the radio while the throttle was a few clicks above idle. The throttle came down and it seemed like two seconds and the engine shutoff.and then it went into cool down. Display did not indicate failsafe but it should have been available to see as is explained on page 64 of the manual. I didn't see that in the manual until later after I ran the engine one more time and powered up the plane a few more times so it was too late to look for a failsafe indication.
Old 02-17-2020, 06:04 AM
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I don't recall for sure (it's been over 2 years since I tested this) but I don't believe it gets shown on the regular display. The display shows turbine status messages and if you recall from page 64 of the manual, Lost RC is in the list of warning messages, not status messages. I think you need to select the Summary function on the display which contains info on the last 4 runs and scroll to the last line which I as I recall should be the shut down reason for the most recent run.
Old 02-17-2020, 07:11 AM
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I believe the "Diagnostic Messages" screen would have given me the failsafe notice but like I said I didn't see that in the manual until after I had cycled the ECU one or two more times and I think the info of last shutdown is wiped if you don't get it on the first re-power up after the failsafe shutdown. The "Summary" screen only will give you running info of the last four runs and an abnormal code line if something happened. I think at this point, I would need the ability to download the ECU data to my PC to see the failsafe although I will check the summary again and see if it kicked a code of the failsafe run. I don't think there's a list of codes in the manual though.
Old 02-17-2020, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Afterburners View Post
I believe the "Diagnostic Messages" screen would have given me the failsafe notice but like I said I didn't see that in the manual until after I had cycled the ECU one or two more times and I think the info of last shutdown is wiped if you don't get it on the first re-power up after the failsafe shutdown. The "Summary" screen only will give you running info of the last four runs and an abnormal code line if something happened. I think at this point, I would need the ability to download the ECU data to my PC to see the failsafe although I will check the summary again and see if it kicked a code of the failsafe run. I don't think there's a list of codes in the manual though.
You may be correct about the diagnostic menu as I've never actually looked at it myself and honestly wasn't aware of it until you mentioned it. Still, the Summary menu has the basic info, including shut down reason, for the last 4 runs. Also, I believe that's literally "runs", not ECU power cycles.

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