Rocketman has tried to compare the Multiplex 4000 with
the JR 10 and Futaba 9, but I think the Multiplex is in
a different class. It is far too different to a standard radio.
I have and used one for flying the Rig and can say, it is totally unlike any radio out there...

What basically make it different is the fact you can assign
any stick to any channel to any function. This also has
its drawbacks.

The Profi 4000 is the most difficult to learn but also
the most capable

The question remains, is all this power and capabilities
required to fly a turbine plane. I think the answer is no.
I flew the DC-10 on a Futaba 8 channel and its up to the
user to get what he/she wants and decide how to use the
channels.

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/

If the 9C has it - about time too !

The 9Z does not have triple rates, unless it has changed since I got mine. I have the 9ZAWc2, and it has only dual rates, despite the switches having 3 positions.

Gordon

Hello Gordon,
Don't mean to be a know-it-all here but if you use the full capabilities of the Futaba programming i.e. "Conditions" I think you could have so many different "rates" per channel it would be ridiculous. If rates are what you are looking for using "Conditions" three or more on each primary channel is doable.

One of the most powerful features of the Futaba is the Conditions. You can virtually set up all completely different rates for each condition. For example you could if you wanted to easily have 6 different rates for each flight channel with the movement of one switch, could get confusing though ---------.

It is true the 9ZWCII's three position switches and programming do not match up. Just utilizing the default program setup two rates are all that are available per primary channel.
Lee H. DeMary
AMA 36099

Lee,

The 10X has 5 flight modes as well, I am sure identical to waht you are calling conditions.

DR

Does anyone know what the "timeline" of the Multiplex 12 channel is?

I understand it is IPD, which means the tansmitter is sending the servo output waveform directly over the FM carrier (in other words it is not some sort of digital compressed data stream like some of the PCM transmitters)

Therefore,

If there are 12, 1024 channels, and the frame rate is 60 hz, then there is only about 1.3 msec for each channel (even less actually)

Sincel full throw for each servo is about 2 msec (give or take) how do they do this?

No slam I would buy one if I undertood it and I know the programming is powerful, I have heard that from others

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silver182

Hello Gordon,
Don't mean to be a know-it-all here but if you use the full capabilities of the Futaba programming i.e. "Conditions" I think you could have so many different "rates" per channel it would be ridiculous. If rates are what you are looking for using "Conditions" three or more on each primary channel is doable.

One of the most powerful features of the Futaba is the Conditions.



Hi Lee,

Been there, thought about that...

I looked into using the above approach, and after much debate with Ann Marie Cross (GP / Futaba support), it was concluded that conditions unfortunately would NOT work like triple rates.

The problem is in the way that conditions have been implemented. Instead of you selecting what things a condition should change, and have it leave everything else alone, conditions take a copy of just about everything, and impose those copied parameters (not just the changed or selected parameters) when you engage that condition. This causes numerous problems, including:

1) You can't *compound* conditions. Whichever switch you flipped last overrides whatever switch you flipped second last. What I mean by that is this - with TRUE triple rates, I can independantly change the rate of any one control without affecting ANYTHING else. That means that if I simply want to change from medium rate rudder to high-rate, without changing the currently in use rates on the other controls, I can do so.

As soon as I use conditions to try to give me the same flexibility I run into the problem that flipping that switch may change things that I don't want changed, because the condition refuses to leave my currently-in-use aileron and elevator rates alone, and instead insists on implementing whichever rates those controls have within this given condition. To get the ability to have each of the hi-med-lo options individually on all three controls, I would need to implement an enormous number of conditions, plus it becomes a usability nightmare. Lemme see ... which switch is it that gives me high-rate rudder, medium rate elevator and low-rate aileron... no, not that one - that's hi-med-med, not hi-med-lo..... no thanks.

2) For every one of the conditions that I'd end up setting to overcome the lack of triple rates, I'd have to INDIVIDUALLY reprogram every single condition when I want to change something basic like the servo sub trim position. There is no "change this in all conditions" option in the programming.
Ugh.

Don't get me wrong - I think that the Wc2 is a great radio in many ways - I just disagree with several of the decisions that they made in terms of the software. Not that the 10X is perfect either, but given the options that I have just now, I'll stay with the 10x for the forseeable future, and sell my Wc2 as soon as I crash the Raptor that its in. ;-) I may later buy another Futaba if I see any evidence that their programming has improved in terms of usability. From Ann Marie told me, some of the 8 series, plus the 9C already have slightly better programming, but for some reason that neither she nor I could fathom, Futaba left their flagship, top of the line, radio behind when they improved their UI on their cheaper radios. Hopefully that will change soon, and if so I will re-evaluate the radio at that time.

Regards,
Gordon

I have a problem with the increasing complexity of the
flight programs the jet flyers are programming in there
radios.

Is it all necessary ?

If the priorities, are safe, full proof flying then all these
complex programs are only making it more complex to and harder
fly the jets.

How many times have people got in trouble because of
Duel Rates. I think duel rates totally unnecessary and here is why.

On the first flight of the plane, check the roll rate, check the elev
if you don't like the way it feels, land the plane and change it.
Once you set the plane up the way you like it, you can begin
to learn how to fly the plane. With time you will know it like
the back of your hand and will anticipate its reaction to your inputs.
Now why would you want to change all your servo
travels and have a totally different plane.

All these plane are fully capable of flying 200mph and 35mph
with out changing troughs. That is what expo is far.

I also understand this is a hobby and none of it is really
necessary. If the owner enjoys programming his radio, that
is great. That is what its all about. I am just saying that
if the main priority is safe, full proof flying, then keep it simple.

We all know that when we fly in front of a croud, our IQ
drops about 40 points. We don't need more switches to
remember.

Eddie Weeks
http://www.corpcomp.com/weeks1/

I agree Eddie,

I use one rate change when flying, Nose gear! I use high rate to taxi and line up, switch to low rate for takeoff and switch back to high when airborn and use high for landings. Everything else I have set at one rate and fly at that rate, adjusted to suite my flying style and left there. I see no need to switch from high to med to low...? Expo does just fine... The less complicated the better as far as I'm concearned.

Todd

Originally posted by EddieWeeks
How many times have people got in trouble because of
Duel [sic] Rates. I think duel rates totally unnecessary and here is why.

On the first flight of the plane, check the roll rate, check the elev
if you don't like the way it feels, land the plane and change it.

Sorry Eddie - I have to disagree. First flights are a perfect example of where multiple rates comes in especially handy. Set up your medium rates to what you think is the correct travel for the model, then when you get airborne and find out that the aircraft is super-sensitive on aileron, and a bit dead on elevator, switch from med to low aileron and from med to high elevator. Then land and sort things out and try again. Doing it this way, rather than saying you should use a single rate and land when you need to make changes may make it more likely that you can land the aircraft in a condition that allows it to be re-used !! ;-)


Now why would you want to change all your servo
travels and have a totally different plane.

For doing different things with the airplane. I get bored doing just one thing with any airplane.

All these plane are fully capable of flying 200mph and 35mph
with out changing troughs. That is what expo is far.

I find it interesting that you think that daul rates are an unnecessary programming complexity, yet expo is not.... one could use your own line of argument to suggest that expo should not be used, because that's what fully proportional fingers are for !! ;-)

Later,
Gordon

BTW... I have no problem with anyone disagreeing with me.
Quit often my ideas are different, but not always better.

Gordon, I respect you answer and I DO see where you
are coming from, but don't %95 of the people here
build kits with instructions, and in the instructions they
give the through of each surface. How far off can they be ?

I have little experience with kits so I just don't know,
all my planes have been scratch built and its just not a problem.
I may have assumed wrongly, that it would be easier for kits.

About the Duel rates and expo, I don't like the switch of the DR
being able to change the plane. I assumed the expo is always
be one and not connected to a switch. The in-flight switch
is what I don't like.

"Now why would you want to change all your servo
travels and have a totally different plane. "
"For doing different things with the airplane. I get bored doing just one thing with any airplane "

I don't understand. I set up the Isobar so at most any time
I can depart the airplane. I have max travel on all servos.
On the first flight the roll rate was too high at 200mph so I
tuned it down a bit. It will climb on knife edge. Is short
I have enough travel to fly the plane to its aerodynamic limit
and beyond. I thought it was the only way to set up a plane.
Even the DC-10 is set up is the same.


Eddie Weeks

Hi Eddie,

For me, I select the rate depending on what I want to do with the airplane at the time. I must admit that I change rates more frequently when I'm flying something like my warm-up prop planes than when I'm flying a turbine (mostly because I'm still being cautious on them so far), but the same principle applies, especially since I'm using the same TX in each case.

Here's an example of one of my set ups: Low rates allow me to do (or more accuratley try to do) pattern-style smooth maneuvers where I can do something like a 6 second slow roll without having the roll rate change on me during the maneuver because of lack of resolution of my finger movements (I don't have the world's steadiest hands!); then I might switch to medium rate elevator, low rate rudder and medium rate aileron to go do some pylon racing; the rate selected here allows me to pull full elevator stick in the turn without worrying about a high-speed stall happening; then I might select high rate everything to go do some snaps, tumbles, etc.

If I simply maxed out the control surafce movements in a single rate that's set for doing tumbles etc, then my slow maneuvers would look like krap (despite the expo), and I'm more likely to screw up in a pylon turn.

BTW, I also run completely different expo settings in each of my rates.

Bottom line tho, is run what you're comfortable with. I'm not trying to convince you to change to my way of flying - just explaining why I like having multiple rates for the way(s) I fly.

Oh, and regarding the kit vs non-kit point - yup, most folk probably just fly kits. For turbines, that's true (so far) for me too, though for prop planes its not - so if I'm going to have a radio with lots of rates to use with things like my upcoming Profile Pig (TM ;-), then I may as well use that in my jets too !

Regs,
Gordon

Very true Eddie. They do. But it comes down to a personal preference. Bob Violett's sets his airplanes up with WAY more control throw than I like. I guess that comes back to my aerobatics flying, but I like a soft, smooth flying airplane. The only downside of this is that sometimes I run out of elevator on landing. So I use a higher rate elevator for landing.

One thing you bring up though makes a lot of sense and I think it will be lost unless it's repeated over and over.

To paraphrase: Just because a radio CAN do something, doesn't mean you MUST do it. These radios have more capabilities than 99% of the masses will ever use. The best thing I can suggest is try to keep things as simple as possible for YOU. I prefer to flip a switch for each change rather than group a lot of things together, but others may want to assign many actions to a single switch. Personal preference.

Doug Cronkhite
Team JR

Gordon & Eddie,
The feature I like best about "Conditions" (Futaba), or Modes (JR) is the ability to remember "trim" changes on all primary channels and keep them separate, while changing Conditions / Modes. Also those trim settings are changeable "real time" inflight and remembered immediately upon Mode change!! Also with the flick of that ONE switch, all primary channel rates, flap settings (up / takeoff / landing), exponential (more or less), and other settings i.e. gear up/down, speed doors open/closed, can be changed --! All with the movement of one switch -------.

Gordon: you are correct sorta about the Futaba, I say sorta because if you keep it simple, and are willing to change all primary channel rates simultaneously ------ example aileron set to low rate, elevator set to low rate, rudder set to low rate, with one condition setting, then change aileron to medium, elevator to medium, and rudder to medium, with another condition, and then the third condition set to aileron high rate, elevator set to high rate, and rudder set to high rate---------- I think you have your three position rate switch. That assumes you leave all of your normal rate switches alone.

The fact is when you use Modes with the JR as you know you loose the ability to change rates separately similar to my example with the Futaba --------------.

As an example with my BVM MIG when I am landing with gear down all doors open, flaps full extended, and speed doors out the trim settings for elev., ail., are slightly different than in normal high speed flight. The trims can be set up while on finial for the dirty "Condition", and as soon as I set the flaps to takeoff position (say for a go around) all trim settings change to what is necessary for that "Condition". This I believe is where the true power of the "Conditions / Modes" lies -----.

Eddie using these powerful features of these radios actually makes your life simpler so you can concentrate more on the actual fight of your aircraft --------.

To sum it up, I wished there was a radio that had the ability to transmit and receive on any of our 50 channels, had at least 12 1024 bit full channels, with programming so easy and adaptable we could program it custom ourselves, to do almost anything, an RF link that was totally bullet proof, available in all our local hobby shops, all at a cost not much different than we are accustomed to now ----------

Lee -------

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silver182
Gordon: you are correct sorta about the Futaba, I say sorta because if you keep it simple, and are willing to change all primary channel rates simultaneously ------ example aileron set to low rate, elevator set to low rate, rudder set to low rate, with one condition setting, then change aileron to medium, elevator to medium, and rudder to medium, with another condition, and then the third condition set to aileron high rate, elevator set to high rate, and rudder set to high rate---------- I think you have your three position rate switch.


Hi again Lee,

Sorry, but this isn't what I'm looking for - I'm not interested in having to change the rates of all surfaces at the same time and in the same way. Futaba clearly understands this too, otherwise their radios would have a single rate switch instead of three separate ones. ;-)

Later,
Gordon

You don't have to do it that way Gordon. You can actually change the rate to any rate with a flight mode. You can have a position with low elevator, high rudder, high aileron, and flip to a position with high elevator, high rudder, med aileron, gear down, flaps down, up elevator trim, etc.. etc..

Again.. just because you CAN change something.. doesn't mean you MUST change something.

Hey Doug, how's life treatin' you ?

Perhaps you misunderstood - I'm not in the least bit interested in flipping a switch that changes everything in one go. ;-)

ALL that I want, is something incredibly simple - namely for my Wc2 to have true triple rates INDEPENDANTLY on all three primary control surfaces.

When I flip the rudder rate switch to each of its three positions I want the amount of rudder movement to change in each case, WITHOUT doing anything else - not changing the rate of the aileron or elevator, not dropping the gear or switching on smoke or any of the cool things that I could do if I had wanted to use conditions - just pure and simple triple rates. Similarly, for aileron and elevator I want the same ability, INDEPENDANTLY.

Don't get me wrong - I think conditions are very useful for certain things - but they don't seem to make up for a lack of triple rates on the Wc2.

Later,
Gordon

OK.. I did misunderstand. Got ya now.

Life is.. acceptable

I've just read every post on this thread in hopes of garnering information to help me decide on a new radio.

It's very interesting to me that ALMOST every lengthy thread looses focus very quickly.

I don't think the questions initially posed were ever answered. Maybe they can't be.

My .00001 cents worth to an already fuzzy post.

What is the 10th channel used for? I'm just trying to get a non-biased view on this radio over the others. To me it seems most people choose the 10x cause it's easy to program has a 10th channel and they are partial to JR. I would like to see past these and get to the details.

The fact is if we had 14 full channels available some of us would use every one of them. So choosing the 10 channel radio is almost a given for most of us. A good example would be my Bob Cat. BV originally designed the Bob Cat to be flown with a simple 6 channel radio. Well, I am out of channels using my JR10X----
My setup for the Bob Cat is:
Throttle = signal channel Jet Cat 120 turbine operation
Aileron = Left aileron
Elevator = routed to a JR Match Box so I could match up elevator throws ----- the elevators on the Bob Cat are split so to match up throw you must use two separate channels or use the match Box or match program using multiplex or hitec servos.
Rudder = Controls one of the two rudders
Gear = Controls air retract system for all three gear
Aux1 = Controls the right aileron, I setup using the Flaperon function
Aux2 = Channel for controling gyro gain, gyro used on one rudder and nose wheel. Note I want gyro help on nose wheel because BV's wheel brakes have a tendency to pull left or right ---
Aux3 = Controls the servo for the wheel brakes
Aux4 = Controls the left rudder and is driven by the rudder channel. Also is coupled with the same gyro used for nose wheel, the gyro is a dual output type with a gain control (Aux2) By coupling the gyro to at least one rudder I thought I could get some rudder stabilization for the Bob Cat wiggle-----and it seems to work well enough.
Aux5 = Controls the Right rudder is driven by rudder channel.

Now most of you are probably wondering why I used up three channels just for rudders and nose wheel when one channel would do the job! That gets to the crux of the question why use a 10 channel radio? I never have enough channels, if nothing else I will split a channel add two servos for redundancy only. In the case of the Bob Cat I wanted to experiment with Crow / butterfly of the rudders OUT to see if they alone would help with the wiggle and maybe at the same time add a little more drag for landing setup ----------I have found that in fact they do help on both counts. I just wished I could split them more drasticly as of now I can only Crow them out about 3/4 inch -----helps with drag and wiggle but I believe say 1" 1/2" Crow would be much better.
Lee----------

Hey guys,


I am a Jr user for the past 7 years "love the feel" Futaba before that for about 10 years. I am currently on the fence about the 10X. I currently use the 10SXII and it has served me well for the past several years and I have not found a reason yet for me to jump to the 10X but I am open minded and I do have a couple of questions I would like to have answered.

My questions:

What is the primary feature improvements of the 10X over the 10SXII other than the digital trims?

Also one of my only complaints of the 10SXII is that when using flaperons I would really like to use servo slow feature on the flap portion of the mixing but not the ailerons. Is there a way to do this on the 10SX or in my case can it be done with my 10SX II???

Thank you all for your time.

David.

I am a Jr user for the past 7 years "love the feel" Futaba before that for about 10 years. I am currently on the fence about the 10X. I currently use the 10SXII and it has served me well for the past several years and I have not found a reason yet for me to jump to the 10X

David,
I never owned a 10SXII, but my 10SX didn't have the flight mode function, if the 10SXII doesn't have flight mode capability that would be one good reason to upgrade to the 10X.

You indicated wanting a servo slow feature for flaps, well think about linking your flaps to a three position switch, and when you put the flaps full down you automatically have totally separate trims remembered for that flap setting. This is a very nice feature as it allows you to re trim completely all flight surfaces. Really handy for retriming elev and aileron to compensate for any aircraft flight angle changes upon flap deployment.

JR offers just the transmitter and case at a substantial savings over the complete system. If you already have all the receivers and servos you need this is a good way to go ---------
Lee

Everybody, I do really think you should have a serious look, without a priori, to Multiplex 3030 and 4000. You can put the slow feature on ANY command, ANY number of times. (On my previous Jet trainer, I setup 3 seconds on the throttle ). On the Maverick, I used slow on the flaps as well as a mixer on elevators, so that the change in flight attitude was smooth.

You have 3 SEPARATE high-low rate switches, and the ability to have 3 "modes" for one plane. In fact, it's 3 separate memories (on the 3030, I think it's 5 for the 4000), where you can change whatever you want in the programming, As there is 99 memories, you can still have 33 planes if you use this feature on all of them...

And if you hate flying with a tray, wait a little for the new Royal Evo....

Bernard

Bernard is right, but you don't have to wait. I fly the Profi 4000 traditional USA style with thumbs only and no tray and I love it. I could not go back to the other brands now after flying this for almost two years. MPX is AWESOME!!! Those who say the Profi's case does not lend itself to non-tray flying either have not tried it or its just in their minds.

Hi Woketman, good to hear that ! As I fly exclusively with a tray since... ho well, I don't want to count anymore....I feel I can't speak fot "thumb up" ergonomy.

BTW, about the Royal, I have one. The "original one" made about 25 years ago. Still working perfectly ( not computer radio at the time...). Just to say that Multiplex is in the business since a loooong time, and know our needs.

Bernard

Hey Guys,

Thanks for the info but I think I was not clear in my previous question about using servo slow feature. So I will try again.

I have an F-16 "or Several of them " and as you all know the F-16 only has one control surface "Excluding the leading edge flaps" that functions as both flaps and ailerons. I am successful in getting the flaperons to function correctly but when I activate the flaps using the three position flap switch on the upper left of side of the transmitter the flaps deploy very quickly; in under a second.

So in my mind I think hey I will take advantage of the servo slow feature and set the flaps to deploy fully in 4 seconds instead of 1. This in my opinion looks allot more scale and helps prevent pitch changes during flight. But to my surprise servo slow feature only works in slowing the physical servo plugged in to the flap channel for example" I think this is channel number 6" but since I have flaperon mixing my ailerons are also slowed down to transition fully over 4 seconds.

In short using flaperon mixing on an aircraft that does not have separate flaps and ailerons I wish I could set the flaps to take four seconds to transition fully and have the ailerons function at normal speed.

Anyway I hope there is some way to do this.

Thanks again for your responses.

David.