Judging Question
06-24-2011 | 12:37 PM
#101
My Feedback: (45)
RE: Judging Question
Matt,
I know this specific question was in reference to the NATS because I talked to Tim about it last week. I realize you are not worried about logistics, but that is what it comes down to and as such you have to make some assumptions, unless some people decide to step up and help out. Lets say you are flying Advanced at the NATS and someone won each of the first 4 rounds, and you were sitting in second. The planes are weighed after round 5, and the guy in first is overweight. Under your logic, you still lose the NATS, because his first 4 rounds count. The way it is worded and the reason the CD puts out the information prior to the NATS is to clarify how it works. If you have your plane weighed and it fails, you are DQ'd, REGARDLESS of when it fails. People say, weigh every airplane before hand, but that still doesn't change the fact that the plane can weigh more or less through the week. The system we have now, makes sure that the planes that get plaques are at least processed once. Everyone knows going in the rules (if you fail, you're out), and I don't know what else you can do, other than weigh every plane, every round, but no one wants to be the guy with that job, so certain assumptions are made. There are ways around the weight rule, just as there are ways around the sound rules. There is NO way to enforce everything every time. Just like if you are driving down the road where the speed limit is 55 and you are doing 73. You may not get caught every time, but at some point, you very well might get caught and that is all you can do. My personal suggestion was that each day, pilots draw straws or something and then the pilots with short straws get weighed after flying. This way, everyone knows they may get weighed, so therefore they better be in compliance. The problem with this is that the pilots in contention could still be over weight, and if they don't draw the right straw they don't get checked, but at least that way, people have a reason to try.
The scales are available all week, and if something changes on your plane, then go back and weigh it, but there is just no way to weigh every plane, every flight.
I believe the reason the 2X2 rule and the weight rules are so strictly enforced (ie, DQ'd) is that they establish the physical size of the plane (I know, glow and electric weigh differently), but I believe that is why they warrant disqualification whereas sound does not.
Arch
I know this specific question was in reference to the NATS because I talked to Tim about it last week. I realize you are not worried about logistics, but that is what it comes down to and as such you have to make some assumptions, unless some people decide to step up and help out. Lets say you are flying Advanced at the NATS and someone won each of the first 4 rounds, and you were sitting in second. The planes are weighed after round 5, and the guy in first is overweight. Under your logic, you still lose the NATS, because his first 4 rounds count. The way it is worded and the reason the CD puts out the information prior to the NATS is to clarify how it works. If you have your plane weighed and it fails, you are DQ'd, REGARDLESS of when it fails. People say, weigh every airplane before hand, but that still doesn't change the fact that the plane can weigh more or less through the week. The system we have now, makes sure that the planes that get plaques are at least processed once. Everyone knows going in the rules (if you fail, you're out), and I don't know what else you can do, other than weigh every plane, every round, but no one wants to be the guy with that job, so certain assumptions are made. There are ways around the weight rule, just as there are ways around the sound rules. There is NO way to enforce everything every time. Just like if you are driving down the road where the speed limit is 55 and you are doing 73. You may not get caught every time, but at some point, you very well might get caught and that is all you can do. My personal suggestion was that each day, pilots draw straws or something and then the pilots with short straws get weighed after flying. This way, everyone knows they may get weighed, so therefore they better be in compliance. The problem with this is that the pilots in contention could still be over weight, and if they don't draw the right straw they don't get checked, but at least that way, people have a reason to try.
The scales are available all week, and if something changes on your plane, then go back and weigh it, but there is just no way to weigh every plane, every flight.
I believe the reason the 2X2 rule and the weight rules are so strictly enforced (ie, DQ'd) is that they establish the physical size of the plane (I know, glow and electric weigh differently), but I believe that is why they warrant disqualification whereas sound does not.
Arch
06-24-2011 | 01:27 PM
#102
Senior Member
RE: Judging Question
The issue I would take with your suggestion of drawing straws is that one thing the rule is not ambiguous about is that EVERY pilot in a given class should be weighed before the same flight. Now, if I were at the Nats and found my self in second place behind a 4-round winner who, after round 4 was weighed and DQ'd, I would expect his first four rounds to stand as judged. Why? Because like you said, "you have to make some assumptions." If you start the contest before weighing the airplanes, you have made the assumption that the airplanes are legal. If that assumption was not made, nobody could fly.
I'm glad the CD puts the information out ahead of time for the Nats. He has to. Why? Because the rules aren't actually being followed to the letter, and AMA regs state any exception to the rules must be posted ahead of time. I'm in no way advocating weighing all aircraft before every flight, but if you start the contest with the assumption that and airplane is legal you don't get to turn around and say he wasn't just because at some point later he wasn't legal. There's no way to know what the weight was previously, and he was allowed to fly anyway, so the flights should stand. Weigh-in prior to contest gives you a baseline. Then spot-check those in contention prior to flying the finals.
I'm glad the CD puts the information out ahead of time for the Nats. He has to. Why? Because the rules aren't actually being followed to the letter, and AMA regs state any exception to the rules must be posted ahead of time. I'm in no way advocating weighing all aircraft before every flight, but if you start the contest with the assumption that and airplane is legal you don't get to turn around and say he wasn't just because at some point later he wasn't legal. There's no way to know what the weight was previously, and he was allowed to fly anyway, so the flights should stand. Weigh-in prior to contest gives you a baseline. Then spot-check those in contention prior to flying the finals.
06-24-2011 | 01:30 PM
#103
Senior Member
RE: Judging Question
ORIGINAL: rcpattern
What amazes me, is the number of people who want to complain about the rules and how things run, but yet, NONE are NSRCA board members, or on most of the committees. If people want to make a difference, or see things change, then run for office, rather than sitting at home on the internet complaining about it. I will openly admit, that the last year of being an NSRCA VP and understanding how difficult and time consuming that is, and then reading people complain about how things work, has really worn on me.
I understand how the rules are stated, the issue becomes enforcing them. If guys are willing to pay 3-4 times their NATS entry fee to justify paying the additional help, I'm sure it can be done, but until that time, there is only so much that can be accomplished. There is NO reason to change the rules, just because you can't enforce them 100% of the time. All you will do then is drive people away. Many VERY good people in the pattern community have already been driven away by the constant bickering of people, and for years, it had mostly gone away, but it is definitely coming back. If you have a complaint, fine, but then have a solution as well and don't make that solution, lets get rid of the rules. Currently, every plane that is in contention to take home a trophy gets weighed, and processed at some point, and people are explained how it works before hand.
If you want more than that, then be willing to stand up and volunteer to do the work. A lot of people give up their vacations in the summer to come help out at the NATS and make it as good an experience as they can on a VERY limited budget. We need to start thanking those people rather than complaining about how it works, unless you want to be the person to take their place.
Arch
What amazes me, is the number of people who want to complain about the rules and how things run, but yet, NONE are NSRCA board members, or on most of the committees. If people want to make a difference, or see things change, then run for office, rather than sitting at home on the internet complaining about it. I will openly admit, that the last year of being an NSRCA VP and understanding how difficult and time consuming that is, and then reading people complain about how things work, has really worn on me.
I understand how the rules are stated, the issue becomes enforcing them. If guys are willing to pay 3-4 times their NATS entry fee to justify paying the additional help, I'm sure it can be done, but until that time, there is only so much that can be accomplished. There is NO reason to change the rules, just because you can't enforce them 100% of the time. All you will do then is drive people away. Many VERY good people in the pattern community have already been driven away by the constant bickering of people, and for years, it had mostly gone away, but it is definitely coming back. If you have a complaint, fine, but then have a solution as well and don't make that solution, lets get rid of the rules. Currently, every plane that is in contention to take home a trophy gets weighed, and processed at some point, and people are explained how it works before hand.
If you want more than that, then be willing to stand up and volunteer to do the work. A lot of people give up their vacations in the summer to come help out at the NATS and make it as good an experience as they can on a VERY limited budget. We need to start thanking those people rather than complaining about how it works, unless you want to be the person to take their place.
Arch
Strange thing is it has always been like that. From the time when RVP was a pup and I didn't exist. Makes you wonder if RVP is in the running for sainthood
06-24-2011 | 03:52 PM
#104
My Feedback: (31)
RE: Judging Question
Arch,Scott,Tom et al
I'm not advocating weighing every airplane every round or even every airplane in a class once. I'm not asking for any more logistics or personnel to be required to run any contest. The infrastructure is already in place. I just think to DQ an contestant is a bit excessive.
Of course a contestant should ensure he's well under weight before leaving home in the first place.
I thank all those that have served on the associated boards in our sport over the years. I know it's a thankless job and at times can be trying, but who else are we to talk to about what matters to us in our sport? It comes with the job.
Forums like this, while they can get a bit out of hand at times, is the best place to raise questions and hash them out well before anyone puts a rule proposal in. With point-counter point we can bring to the fore front ideas on both sides of an issue that might not have been thought of that could sway opinions. This way we involve far more in the process than we ever have before.
Tim
I'm not advocating weighing every airplane every round or even every airplane in a class once. I'm not asking for any more logistics or personnel to be required to run any contest. The infrastructure is already in place. I just think to DQ an contestant is a bit excessive.
Of course a contestant should ensure he's well under weight before leaving home in the first place.
I thank all those that have served on the associated boards in our sport over the years. I know it's a thankless job and at times can be trying, but who else are we to talk to about what matters to us in our sport? It comes with the job.
Forums like this, while they can get a bit out of hand at times, is the best place to raise questions and hash them out well before anyone puts a rule proposal in. With point-counter point we can bring to the fore front ideas on both sides of an issue that might not have been thought of that could sway opinions. This way we involve far more in the process than we ever have before.
Tim
06-24-2011 | 07:01 PM
#105
Senior Member
RE: Judging Question
ORIGINAL: MTK
The Regs are self explanatory. Please read the paragraph on TA maneuvers. Please don't make ''interpretations'' on this issue. The correct one is presented in the Regs and is the one I presented above
ORIGINAL: wattsup
Tim, thanks one more time. I think at this point I will have to rely on my own understanding because there is just too much diversity of opinion and/or interpretation applied to what I originally thought to be a simple downgrade. I still feel this is a very important area that needs to be addressed so that every judge is on the same page. Hope to fly with you later this year___Everette
Tim, thanks one more time. I think at this point I will have to rely on my own understanding because there is just too much diversity of opinion and/or interpretation applied to what I originally thought to be a simple downgrade. I still feel this is a very important area that needs to be addressed so that every judge is on the same page. Hope to fly with you later this year___Everette
06-25-2011 | 12:11 AM
#106
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Judging Question
Matt, Why do you feel the need to repeat your above statement in this thread? No, I did not "miss the point"! What is clear to me is that there is ambiquity in the wording of some of these rules and this alone leads to self interpretation. All you have to do is go back and read the difference of opinions expressed to what I thought was a very simple question and you will realize the same. Keep in mind, I was seeking clarification and asked the question because I did not have a current AMA rule book in front of me. What is evident is that RC Ken deleted my original question in his efforts to clean up this thread. Everette
06-25-2011 | 05:42 AM
#107
My Feedback: (58)
RE: Judging Question
Everette, here is a link for you to bookmark so you can have the rules in front of you when you're on your computer:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2...erobatics1.pdf
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/2...erobatics1.pdf
06-25-2011 | 06:38 AM
#108
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Judging Question
Thanks Pete. So both Jon and Matt are both correct. I see where the "scored turnaround" section of RCA-14, which is based on the use of percentages, refers you back to the suggested downgrades listed under "Maneuvers Off-Center" for the guidelines. Now to get EVERY judge to consistently apply these rules as it relates to all "scored turnaround maneuvers. That's been the problem! Thanks everyone, Everette
