Ha ha, that's the ticket...I SEE!! SEZ THEBLINDMANTOTHEDEAFMAN.

For electrics that meansweigh without a battery charge. For glow that means weigh without gas

As Bryan says, "pick your agenda" (sorry Bryan, paraphrased a bit!). The solution still depends on a common rule, not one rule for you and one rule for me.................

PS: Like Bryan said: (more or less verbatim, this time) The top guys will look at the rules, adapt and play the game.

To summarize,

1) the 5kg rule affects nobody at local contests because planes aren't weighed, and has very little impact at the Nats. (Did anybody in any category not make weight at the 2012 Nats?)

2) the vast majority of FAI pilots are comfortable with the current weight rule.

Little wonder there's no urgency at FAI to tinker with the status quo.

"You did not come across as abrasive more like you were rambling all over the place. "

Brian

Not sure what you are talking about there, just combined all the excuses I`ve heard over the years But, Just to be Clear,
The Statement "Johnny come lately" I was not reffering to you, But to Electric Power as a relitive new entry into pattern competition.
I commend you for your building skills Please continue and design something again, we need more designers ,,you can even put a little horn on the front if you want (to TOOT it we don`t mind!

Looking back at your core aurgument ,I can almost be persuaded to jump in line, But the rules were in place before Electric came to play, it`s very hard to take something away, ( rules) that would be a big game changer for glow power. However even so , Glow guys would now be at a slight disadvantage. if Electric were allowed to weigh with no batteries ,,so I`m on the fence.
But I will play the game however it`s decided. I don`t think any changes are looming.

The big picture.
Mike Ramel, I think ,is the father of electric Pattern so to speak, if he is not pushing for it, then the E guys are in trouble!

Grant, I will not take your money, May be a supper,, But I think you might should share the bet with the rest

Bryan

Of all people you should understand the problem with this. You're creating a rule based on what? The average fuel consumption of whose airframe/motor/flying style combination at which point in time??

Look at the rubbish that gets posted about 5kg. This is a thread about what FUTURE of F3A started 10 years back and it was interesting to see what points were being argued then, but it seems that today discussions get hijacked by electric (and some IC) flyers complaining about weight parity. The issue has been beat to death, voted on and the rules stand 5kg +50g, IC planes fuel out, Electric planes batteries in (with or without external arming plug ).

The change in weight for a YS powered ship from takeoff to landing should only be about 150g-170g and slightly less in lower classes. Is this 160g a real problem for the future of F3A that needs to be address?

Bryan,

Re M Ramell ; You are correct - very correct.

I don't think anybody is suggesting to have electrics weighed without batteries - you IC guys would become extinct - quickly - as it is you are on the endangered list .

Re a future design ; Have a little something in mind ok. The problem is it will have to have two wings and I can't get constructive advice on wing incidences anywhere .
Nobody talks about bipe wing incidences.
Perhaps a good subject for The Future of F3A thread.

Do you agree that most people fly faster when the wind blows ??
Have you ever wondered why ??

Brian

Hi
If discussing the future rules is not relevant to the future of F3A in your view then you need to answer the following question for yourself.
What is F3A ??
You will find the answer in the rules that define F3A .

I am not discussing the 160g of fuel that's used.
I am discussing the unlimited extra amount that can be carried.
What is the point in a weight specification.

Brian

Hi Brian

I know where you can buy a modified electric Shark
Then you can reverse engineer it and gleen the settings

I already get pummeled for aurguing my setups on mono planes I can hardly wait for the beating on bipes!
I`ll throw you a bone however, setting up a bipe is no different than setting up a mono, Now there,, a big peace of the puzzle. go build!
I say build your bipe then spend the next few years refining it ( like I did) then you will have first hand knowlege not the Poo Poo you get off the net. from guys like me
I would call Naruke Directly and see if he will spill the beans LOL

Lets See,
If you are suggesting we (ic)add weight for the wind, with fuel, and thats an advantage, we fly a higher throttle setting in the wind for constant speed only. or we would not be trying to make the airplane as light ass possible in the first place.
Using my trim setup there is hardly a need for increased speed. and using a bipe would be a disadvantage. if we were talking wing loading.
But IC having more power to weight at the end of a flight, now there is a rule change waiting to happen !

Beyan

The rule has been discussed ad neuseum, Voted on and is what it is. It just keeps going on and on like a broken record by those that disagree with it.

The unlimited extra fuel that IC flyers can carry is a disadvantage. The only reason anyone would carry extra fuel is lazyness or to effect a CG shift via a chicken tank...

The weight rule prevents larger draggier airframes requiring more power from being developed, just like the old 10cc motors did back in the day when the 5kg rule was there but it wasn't a problem.

You just don't get what I saying. I am leaving it at that

Ditto

Ad Neuseum

here are some words of wisdom from Edd Keck
Written in the 1977 WC coverage on the Model Aviation Magazine
I smiled when I re read this, the more things change the more they stay the same, They were worried about the weight limit way back then,

Opps
here they are

I guess they were too big
part two!

Hi,
Well the vote results are in.

No weight limit - No.
5.5Kg limit - No.
Normalising - No.
1 Unknown - No.

Not a great surprise apart from perhaps the normalising proposal being rejected - must not have been understood.

Some of the voting is surprising though - really surprising.
Like an earlier poster wondered ; Are some of these guys representing themselves or their community ??
Has the guy in your country sought the community view. (Question is to any/all countries)

Bryan ; As I understand it M Ramell did support and vote yes for one of the weight change proposals.

Brian

I guess what upsets me the most isn't the fact that rules proposals get turned down but the fact that there is so very little input from the community. I do not believe the community voice is heard and if it is, it is let in one ear and out the other with a simple pat on the back saying, "It'll be OK".<div></div><div>I am also quite disheartened by those that say a lot of these cries are from the "lower classes" and not from the "top competitors". Well gentlemen, guess what...these "lower class" pilots that are making their voices heard are the future of F3A which this thread just happens to be about. They aren't stupid and their opinion matters. In most cases, development class rules follow fairly closely those of F3A and therefore, should be considered when making a rule. This isn't stock car racing. We don't all have to fly one of 4 designs and a specific displacement of engine or motor and run a specific airfoil or anything else. This sport is and has always been about innovation. That innovation comes from all ranks. Those that think that only top pilots are what matters are sadly mistaken and they are not the only folks with ideas. Guess who supports trips to world championships and such? It is the entire pattern community which is almost completely comprised of those that do not even fly F3A much less "top competitors". Why is it that the logic behind the votes are never given to us to digest?</div><div></div><div>Honestly, I'm OK with the 5000g limit. I'll make weight regardless of where that variable (more like a constant) is. I will stick to my guns and request equality though. Imagine this for a second...think of the innovation that would happen if the rule stayed at 5000g but IC had to weigh with fuel. Imagine what would happen then. Actually, maybe it is more appropriate to say imagine what could happen then.</div>

This type of Flap-Spoiler is so effective that only about 12-15 square inch area is needed oneach panel. Many years ago I built an Arrow that sported these and it could be slowed way down. The area split I used was 60% flap-40% spoiler for zero pitch, way back then. This device has a place in today models.....perhaps on my next wing....

Matt

The flap / spoilers are nice But I was refering to the text.

Scott, FAI is, and will always be steered by knowledge at the top of the game. It is where the Experience is. not to take away from anyone contributing to the debate it is just the facts. Mike R. is at the" tip of the spear" so to speak and if he cannot garner the support
everything else is just noise.
At top level competiton in any sport ,rules and changes can be taken advantage of Quickly by Agenda`s not known to the average competitor. The Sport is now tied in with Manufacturing the products, which means Money (lots of it) is involved to make these products ,sell, refine ECT. no one would have even thought this possible a few short years ago.

At the top of the heap! are the guys Sponsored to create and use these products,Then, give the feed back about the use to the Manf.
In many cases, there are things in the pipeline made for competition that is not known about to the casual player for many years.
Slow walking changes no matter what they are, is not only proper, But needed in competition that seperate the top 10 by just a handfull of points.

When you focus the rules to restrict something thats already been in place for many years it will always get shot down.
I`m sure weight changes will get more noise in the next cycle, However Electrics will continue to get better lighter and cheaper.
The equality is the fact that it does not hinder anyone at the moment from being competitive,and the expectation that Electric could win the WC in the last 4 events (8 years) is reason alone not to tamper with the rules for "equity sake"

It has been a very long time since the US had the muscule to Whip the votes to our wishes ,(read Ron Chidgy) and I sorry to say we will not see that again probably ever. Europe has the ball and I think for the most part they are doing a fine job.

Bryan

I can't and won't argue with the guy that supports me and many others. I understand the process and I understand the reasoning. It wasn't a ridiculous amount of time ago that you were in the lower classes and had somephenomenalideas and I can't believe it didn't crush you when people wouldn't listen. Again, I get it. We all have to pay our dues. Imagine if some of your processes had of been considered "back in the day". We may just be further ahead than where we are now. All I'm saying is don't underestimate the lower classes.<div></div><div>It's not too hard to figure out that I fly electric (much to Bryan's chagrin). I even have it tougher than FAI because Masters does not get the 1% tolerance. I'll still make weight period. I do believe there is an advantage to IC in the sense that as IC flies, the power to the engine remains the same and in reality, becomes more efficient as the flight goes on and weight comes off. Electrics take off and land with the exact same weight but have less power as the flight progresses. To me, that's an advantage. The current rule weight may have been in standing long before electrics were thought of but electrics were taken into consideration because they are specifically stated in the rule. I just wonder if there is one single IC guy out there that says electrics and IC should be both weighed under the exact same rule.</div>

Bryan,

NP...My take of the article was the flap-spoiler that was new then and has application today. It can be slaved to throttle for those pesky vertical down legs in some of the current schedules

Talking F3A The Future, I haven't used glow fuelstarting my4th season so it didn't occur to me that 30% heli is around $40 a gallon. My eye caught that price yesterday perusing a magazine

On a per flight basis, the new batteries will cost half that of a glow powered flight which uses 30% nitro...My gasoline set-ups cost about 1/6 the batteries' per flight cost (100 flight basis for a set of new Bats from F3AU). That's about 1/12 what glow costs per flight.....That's US dollars basis of course and not necessarily the same world wide.....

Scott, I may be one wet power driver (of very very few) to whom it doesn't matter....

On a per schedule basis my gas plane uses maybe3/12ounces gas. In competition I may run a 6 oz tank and that's plenty for one schedule.....

' The current rule weight may have been in standing long before electrics were thought of but electrics were taken into consideration because they are specifically stated in the rule. '

Hi Scott,
I will try to get this right.
At FAI / International level it went something like this ;
- The distant past - irrelevant now.
- The 60/120/2x2 rule.
- The unlimited engine rule.
The 5Kg rule applied all the while.
- 2003 Jason Shulman flew electric in the WC's Poland. My understanding is that he was weighed without the batteries (his fuel). No biggie. At that time others ,perhaps not Int,, pilots, were also getting into E power.
- Knee jerk reaction by the F3A Sub-committee, perhaps with some pressure from some influences,and we got that what we have today - weigh with batteries (but you can remove the electrons). This was 2004/5 cycle I believe.
- Since then we have people defending the position in which they find themselves and perhaps still some pressure from some influences.
- 2009/10 cycle ,I think, the 1% tolerance rule

Brian

Actually, I weighed with batteries. The only thing I don't remember was being checked if my batteries were at 42V.

Scott

you know I have "thick skin" some would say a Thick HEad I value all oppinions I just might not agree LOL

But, There is no way for you to have the understanding of the in`s and Out`s of FAI rule making. or even make a dent in the decisions. Hell we can`t even get the rule changed in the AMA CLass in our own country.
My Ideas before I flew FAI and became involved in World Class level events Pail in comparison of what I knew, and What I thought I knew about FAI, the "BEAUTIFUL GAME" This is truely and Professional class. These Guys have been involved at the Micro level of F3A longer than we have been around. The History of the rules gives us Guide lines to follow. The Passion and Obsession to manage this sport is more than a trend or passing fad. We get more complaints about the weight rule from guys that do not participate in FAI than from those who do, there is no reason for that.

I remember My first FAI Nats in 94-95 or so I finished 25 out of 50 I think, and din`t know why I scored so low,I was competitive in the local contest.
However I met a new Standard,and a New knowledge, a New level of Passion , and new Perfection. So I accepted my Beatdown, adjusted my thoughts ,and strived to rise to the new level of play I never knew existed!
I became a better builder , flier, I Learned the rules. It streched me to think of doing things I never thought I could, it gave me motivation, and ambition. all that only got me to as High as 7`th place in the US NAts. and a few top 10`s. However the knowledge I learned on the Chase Helps me to teach Guys aspiring to be Better Fliers today.

I complained about not being able to make weight ,thought the rules were Dumb ,and of no reason as well. Then I learned to be a better builder /designer and have gone on to design 20+ airplanes trying to learn from each one how to do it better lighter ,stronger. There were Many Failing, Crashes, Devorce threats (not really) But in the End I created new way to do things ,and have a much better understanding as to why Rules Exist. It will bring the best out of you in the end,and make the sport better for it in the long run.

I`m not saying your a Rookie because your not ,But just because you can`t understand why something is being done and no one can define if for you does not mean there is no reason for it. Players with History in the Sport ,Thankfully! still steer the Rules and Direction of F3A. the Standards alone have made it a Fair game , the Standards have drove Electric to be Competitive. The Slow Movement of Change has made F3A As stable and Professional as it is today.

F3A Is not for Every one , The fact that AMA chooses to mirror Our standards ,,Thats on them, But History teaches us ,it`s a pretty safe bet.

Bryan

Hi Jason,
My bad - was not there but was given it that way.
Anyway I think the time-line that I detailed for Scott is pretty close - didn't look any of it up though.

Brian