Joe,

Since I have probably over 2000 flights on this airframe, I will answer your questions, and feel free to PM me or whatever with any other questions,

1. There is nothing wrong with covering the plane with Monokote. The original prototype was done this way and had MANY MANY flights. It dings easier, and probably doesnt give quite as nice a finish, but there certainly is nothing wrong with doing it that way.

2. Use the DEPS. It is more than adequate. My plane has never had a problem, and I personally like the feel of the plane with the DEPS. Many guys have used the 2 servos in the tail route and been successful as well. The DEPS setup you are talking about is more than adequate as my new one is setup the same way. My original (the oldest living V3) has never had any issues. Yes if you grab it, it feels kind of flexible, but once hooked up, you wont have any issues.

3. No reason you can't run an A123 setup in the plane. It is very easy to end up with the plane tail heavy as it has such a long tail moment. You want the CG just at the front of the wing tube is where I've been the happiest with mine.

The plane has no bad habits and you'll be very happy with the setup. Since you had the 1.70DZ, I would definitely consider getting the CDI kit from central as it cuts WAY down on fuel useage and you just get a better behaving engine all around. Your idle will amaze you with the CDI setup. 1200-1300 is pretty normal with this setup. Feel free to contact me with any questions you might have,

Have fun,

Arch

HI Arch
Thank you very much for the helpful response and quick one to boot! - I will certainly take you up on PM'ing you, as I ask lots of questions before I make a cut

In my question about the DEPS, I guess my main concerin at the moment is the required force to move the currently installed setp back and forth ( carbon tubes not attacehd at Elevator end, but are connected to ball link at fuse, ready to take attachment to servo in carbon servo tray. Since I also fly helicopters, I am used to very, very smooth pushrod movement to my Heli tails, which I make sure always happens. I am concerned with the amount of force necessary to move the DEPS setup and since the fuse is all completely sheeted, I am a little worried I will not be able to make any changes without cutting a hatch or two in the botoom, fixing/replacing to try to make smoother action. THe original owner I bought it form , said that the carbon fiber tubes in the original DEPS setup were no longer available and the tubes he used for the pushrods are clear plastic. I intend on using a high quality digital servo to drive, but I hope it could support minor elevator changes that I am sure will be needed. An additional concern is that the DEPS pushrods exit the rear fuse leaving what appears to be a significant run of unsupported tube to the anticipated elevator hook up - wondering about the flex here as well. I appreciate your expeience and guidence here - I am reading the assembly manual to learn more as fast as I can

As for the CDI, do you mean electronic ignition for the YS? - I have never heard of this, for a glow motor. I have a few ships that run GAS, but I will certianly look into the CDi given your suggestion. Is the 170 prone to stopping in flight, etc? - I fly YS 2 stroke Heli motors and love them. Never had a YS 4 stroke yet, although I have heard all the talk about them being either awesome of tempremental. I am going to send my 170 back to YS performance and have them give it new bearings, diaphram, etc. since it will be a while befoer I get the VF3 ready, and I beleive the 170 in my setup has been sitting for ~ 2 years

Also, sounds like Monocoat works on the entire ship! - glad to hear this. There are a few "retired" national level capable monocoaters in my club, I might attempt to bribe them to cover my VF3 for perhaps some computer help, begging, etc.

I really appreciate your help - I will be in touch again!

Joe F.

Joe,

No, the YS 1.70DZ runs great, even on a glow plug. YS has developed an electronic ignition that still runs on glow fuel. It makes the engine much more efficient. It allows you to lean down the needles and uses more fuel. You should get comfortable 300 flights before you will need to do a rebuild on the DZ. I would recommend that you be very selective in fuels. The Cool Power ones seem to work the best. I personally run this, and that is also what Richard at YS will recommend.

I am at about 60% the fuel consumption since I switched over to the CDI, which is definitely a major savings on the 30% fuel.

Arch

Joe
If I could jump in here, I am concluding from your post that the DEPS has a problem with the amout of force to move the rods inside the sheaths, CORRECT ?
- a couple of questions & possible suggestions. I numbered your quote to address them in order 1 2 3

#1 A properly installed DEPS should NOT require much force to move the pushrod. A really "good" install will be so free that the weight of the elevator will make it drop when you turn the system off ( that's pretty low resistance)
We need more info on the DEPS install , as they can be done a couple of different ways, to help you out with this problem.
Is it on a crutch with thread wrapped around the sheathing. If so read back a few posts - more than one person has wrapped the thread too tightly and caused extra friction ( NOT GOOD)
If it's installed differently and the sheathing is anchored but the pushrod is too big in diameter - carefully measure the size of the carbon pushrods and purchase replacement rods slightly smaller. Simple to slide the original rods out and slide the smaller ones in & it should free up. CST [link=http://www.cstsales.com/products.html]cstsales[/link] will have the size rods you need.

#2 Well it looks like I sorta addresed #2 above SORRY

#3 I've seen people add a wooden crutch about 1/2 way between the exit hole & the end of the rod to prevent flex. It doesn't take much in size , will hardly be noticeable but well worth it.

A properly installed and supported DEPS system is just so SOLID and smooth I'd hate for you to abandon one that's already in the plane when it might be easily fixed.

Now the debate over DEPS versus servos in the tail is not worth discussing here - It's been hashed out elsewhere. I feel it is a personal taste type thing. I've flown both and I'll do DEPS any time I can from now own.

Sounds like you have a problem with the deps You might need to cut it out and reinstall it. You don't want any binding.

Twin elevator servos Are not the best option if your going to paint the fuse, you will be tail heavy.

It's not a big deal to reinstall the dels while it's in the bones, just take your time.

The plane was designed around the ys 170, really it's the best ic option for the magic

look back on this thread where I retro fitted a deps in my bm

Sorry Dean
Looks like I almost posted on top of you.
Great advice I concur wholheartedly.
I LOVE the DEPS in my Black Magic - just wish I could take credit for the build BUt I gotta give George Miller(lchelilover) that honor.

Joe listen to Dean he knows what he's talking about
Eddie

HI Swlarcham and Handglider
First off, thank you both for posting and your suggestions. I will look in more detail on the DEPS ( I am new to DEPS, not having done one before - usually dual elevator servose in the back, or a single pushrod going to a u connector )

As I said, compared to my Heli tail pushrod setups, there is just too much friction there for my liking. I think the last owner actually tried already to replace, as ther are two cutouts in the rear that have been sheeted over again - I think he still did not get it right. I wish I had a macro lens for my camera, I would take a few photos. I am reading the asembly manual tonight ( just bought the ship today and can harldy beleive I got a to notch pattern ship!) and will see what it says about the DEPS - I am new to pattern and am trusting the voices (such as both of you) to guide me here. Looks like a good setup, I will look for sources of friction and report back this weekend as I poke around a bit more

I am in the middle of getting a scale ship ready to finish, then the workbench gets cleared for the Black Magic

BTW, have you guys got any opinions on painting vs. covering? - I have painted a few scale ships already, so I am not afraid of it, but I would think Ultracote would be considerablt lighter at the risk of not protecting the delicate lightweight balsa on the wings and fuse

I appreciate all your help - I will be asking frequently when I get her on the bench!

Thanks again,

Joe F.

Joe,

If you do the finish process correctly and carefully, you can actually paint at the same weight as Monokote or Ultracote. There are guys with with glasses and painted wings as light or lighter than Monokoted wings. It is all in the setup process and being very dilligent with the paint.

Arch

What are the weights of your wing panels and fuse without canopy and chin?

You might be lighter than paint if your starting out with sub 10oz wing panels. The lightest painted planes added 4-6 oz on the fuse and 2-3 on the wings.

I've painted twin super light e- black magics. It' not an easy task to approach the weight of monokote with DCC. It' also a very expensive painting proccess.

I'd be happy to talk you through your deps fix and painting tips. PM me and I'll send you my number.


dean

Joe

I think before I would change out the sleeves on the DEPS system see what diameter rod you have. If it is the DEPS system it probalble is .070 rod and CST has .060 and smalller. Then go to CST sales and use a smaller rod and it might save you a little time and keep you from redoing what someone else did. Just a thought.

HI Dean and RCFlyerMike,
Thank you both for your suggestions. Per a few posts, including yours, I took some measurements of my DEPS setup. The rods exiting the fuse in the back are .070 (1.81mm) and they appear to be a tight fit in the sheaths. The best way I can describe the sheaths is that it looks very much like the clear atenna tube that I used to use on my scale planes to hide the long 72Mhz attenna before switching everything to 2.4. The CF rods look like a tight fit in those clear tubes to me. The two rods are glued and tied together to a .157" rod which, the other end of which is glued to a threaed coupler and what appears to be a 4-40 ball link. The setup calls for an Elevator servo on its side. I am going to order some .060 rod from CST, as I like this idea if it will free things up a bit. It would be the cleanest solutino by far. The more I look at the DEPS, the more I like it - that tail is a long way back from the CG and adding dual elevator seros looks like it would add a big challenge for proper GC.

The only other potential issue I see is that I am a little concerned with the un supported run once it exits the fuse ( the clear tubing is supported 100% of its run internally it appears). The unsupported run from fuse exit to hinge line is about 9.5 -10". I compressed the rods with a hard push and did not get any noticeable bow, but I look for some experienced advise if this run might require bracing.

Once again thanks to all for your help so far!

Joe F.

Joe
Yes you have a good point to consider bracing the rod outside the fuse. Many people do it. Wish I had a pic to show you maybe Dean or Archie has one.
As i suggested in my earlier post, it's easy to glue a piece of lite ply, or carbon if you want to go fancy, with a hole in the end of it for the rod to slide thru. Glue this sticking out perpendicular to the fuse side and it will greatly strengthen the deps.

Yep the .060 rod will solve your friction problem i'm pretty sure.
Eddie

This sounds like the coiled teflon tube issue. CST used to supply the DEPS straight but now they coil the tubes up which binds the carbon rod. I will have the same issue with my BM(E) as Mike supplied coiled teflon tubes.

I think there is discussion somewhere else in this thread or on the pattern forum.

Cheers
Jason.

Joe,

It is approximately 8" from the exit point to the center of the MK horn I'm using. It is totally unsupported and there is no reason to support it. Once it is hooked up there is no flex. I've had no issues in over 1400 flights on my plane. I had the same setup on my Eclipse and Mantis previously with no issues.

Arch

Joe

You won't have any flex in the rod once it is hooked up. As Arch stated in a earlier post he probably flown more flights on a Black Magic than any one else and they were setup this way. The mistake most people make with this setup is glueing the sheaths in with epoxy as it shrinks over time and compresses the sleeve which then causes the binding you are experiencing.
Mike

Jason
I just recieved my coiled sheaths a couple of months back, All I did was cut them into the lengths I needed plus a few inchs and took a piece of music wire and inserted them into the sheath and hung it on the wall for a couple of days. Pesto they were straight before I put them into the airplane.
Mike

HI Mike and Arch
Thanks for the feedback, sounds like i do not need to support it. MIke, your point about the expoxy shrinking is one I had not considered. The sheaths are indeed epoxied, at least where they exit the fuse. I would take a bit of hacking and then repair, but I could cut it out and replace with perhaps a non shrinking adhesive - perhaps Silicone? - any ideas

Thanks

No silicon, use CA with thread or any of the poly glues work fine too. Gorilla, Elmers Probond/Ultimate

Joe,

There is one other thing to look at that has not been brought up, the CG rods might have some splintering or high spots. I had a couple CF rods from DEPS systems I bought that had some splintering....two out of 14 rods I can deal with and they were in the same kit so it could have been something bad happened to them in processing....at any rate, if they are not finished and can be removed from the sheaths it might be worth checking.

Pete

G'day Pete,

I just saw the news on the CAA site.

With you and Arch on the case I'm sure Mike's health will improve.

Cheers
Jason.

We sure hope so. Mike pushes himself way too hard sometimes.

God's speed with your health Mike H and hope to see you out and about soon.


Bill Holsten

Team Black Magic

This is just a little teaser. I still have a few touch ups to do and the canopy. I should be done with all the painting on this one in a few days. My daughter who also kept score at my contest also volunteered to hold my plane, but she hid her face, imagine that.

Hope to see everyone at Ocala


Larry

Looks really good

Very nice.

Arch