Picco P-zero 0.8cc
#277
Senior Member
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
ORIGINAL: AndyW
CP,
I mentioned that prop only because that's one I have on hand. But thanks for the info, I'll work towards that goal. HobbyKing asks for inventions/ideas that they can put into production. I've approached them with some of my work and we shall see.
We need an engine that will go fast for the combat guys and maybe with a tweak or two, the same engine can be used for RC.
I respect the design philosophy of the Cyclon etc. people, no doubt their engines are robust for a reason. But if the engine were equal in power at a far better price, would a disposable, combat engine gain traction? Say four for the same price of a Cyclon.
CP,
I mentioned that prop only because that's one I have on hand. But thanks for the info, I'll work towards that goal. HobbyKing asks for inventions/ideas that they can put into production. I've approached them with some of my work and we shall see.
We need an engine that will go fast for the combat guys and maybe with a tweak or two, the same engine can be used for RC.
I respect the design philosophy of the Cyclon etc. people, no doubt their engines are robust for a reason. But if the engine were equal in power at a far better price, would a disposable, combat engine gain traction? Say four for the same price of a Cyclon.
#278
Senior Member
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
ORIGINAL: aspeed
The older Rossi .15 motors had a rear rotor version and a front induction version and the FI always went faster in the glow form. Mostly I believe because of the extra drag of the rotor. It may possibly be the air being rammed through from the front and flowing/cooling better but I don't think so. The preferred motor was the RR because of an easier run on suction, but it was just slower. Now at least one F2A motor has done away with the inside race of the rear bearing and it rolls directly on the crankshaft. This saves some moving weight. The diesel team race motors still like the RR because of the crankcase stuffing improvement giving better mileage, but they never revved quite as high as the glows, running higher pitch props. I never had a Killer Bee, is the reed valve system different than say a Baby Bee/Surestart? Usually reed valves flutter after about 18,000 rpm and can't keep up. I like Japanmans setup, good results?
The older Rossi .15 motors had a rear rotor version and a front induction version and the FI always went faster in the glow form. Mostly I believe because of the extra drag of the rotor. It may possibly be the air being rammed through from the front and flowing/cooling better but I don't think so. The preferred motor was the RR because of an easier run on suction, but it was just slower. Now at least one F2A motor has done away with the inside race of the rear bearing and it rolls directly on the crankshaft. This saves some moving weight. The diesel team race motors still like the RR because of the crankcase stuffing improvement giving better mileage, but they never revved quite as high as the glows, running higher pitch props. I never had a Killer Bee, is the reed valve system different than say a Baby Bee/Surestart? Usually reed valves flutter after about 18,000 rpm and can't keep up. I like Japanmans setup, good results?
A lot of things have changed since the baby-bee with regard to intake. The holes are bigger, material for the reed is different, the shape of the reed is different etc. I don't think it's an issue anymore, people are running some reedies over 22K now.
#279
Senior Member
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
ORIGINAL: aspeed
Over the years it has been proven that rear rotor motors are slower at higher revs at least. Toad, the AP .09 and .15 motors have a good simple design that has the bypass channels machined in the liner instead of the case. The .15 is machined all the way through to the piston. It wouldn't be too hard to make a case for something like that with a Picco or Norvel Piston/Cyl. The ball bearings would stop me from trying this. The Norvel case could be maybe epoxied up and a new exh. port machined in the back for a rear exh, although the Picco looks like a better liner design. As for Hobby King, maybe an exhaust at 45 degrees might be a good selling design. The OS has the liner at an angle and a side exh. That could easily be a rear exh. with a 45 degree exit, and then an adapter for rear or side.
Over the years it has been proven that rear rotor motors are slower at higher revs at least. Toad, the AP .09 and .15 motors have a good simple design that has the bypass channels machined in the liner instead of the case. The .15 is machined all the way through to the piston. It wouldn't be too hard to make a case for something like that with a Picco or Norvel Piston/Cyl. The ball bearings would stop me from trying this. The Norvel case could be maybe epoxied up and a new exh. port machined in the back for a rear exh, although the Picco looks like a better liner design. As for Hobby King, maybe an exhaust at 45 degrees might be a good selling design. The OS has the liner at an angle and a side exh. That could easily be a rear exh. with a 45 degree exit, and then an adapter for rear or side.
Sounds like you boys are talkin' 'bout an engine a lot like the Parra 1.5cc Wasp. CL or RC, glow or diesel, and very powerful for it's size. I have both the 2.5 and 1.5, it's fantastic. The pricing is pretty fantastic too though.[]
#280
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Having the combustion chamber fastened to the cylinder with threads [like Cyclon] is superior to using 4 machine screws for consistancy from run to run. After a real smokin' run you'll see black aluminum slurry weeping out of the cheaper Chinese engines [like the G&Z] with the head buttons that are clamped down with machine screws. You'll even find aluminum slurry between the liner and the case. These engines make alot of heat [=power] and allowances need to be made for expansion of the aluminum case away from the liner. They also use a tiny music wire circlip to retain the wristpin. These get hot, rusty, etc. and are famous for rattling loose. It's just a bad way of doing it for such a high powered design.
The Russians understand all this. You can't even unscrew the head button out of a Cyclon style engine until you loosen the glow plug first.
I've never had to do any engine work on the Cyclon or Fora...besides changing glow plugs.
$150 worth of Fora will get you more high performance fun than a coffee can full of the cheaper engines.
A venturi restrictor made out of nylon will tame one of these engines enough to work on suction tank and develope less top end rpm. You'll still need to run nothing more than 5x3, 4x4 or 6x2 props.
The Russians understand all this. You can't even unscrew the head button out of a Cyclon style engine until you loosen the glow plug first.
I've never had to do any engine work on the Cyclon or Fora...besides changing glow plugs.
$150 worth of Fora will get you more high performance fun than a coffee can full of the cheaper engines.
A venturi restrictor made out of nylon will tame one of these engines enough to work on suction tank and develope less top end rpm. You'll still need to run nothing more than 5x3, 4x4 or 6x2 props.
#281
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Well, it sounds to me that I'll have to try and prove the skeptics wrong. Skepticism is healthy, justified and necessary. And it is very true that while I can control what I do to deliver the goods, assuring that the production unit will do so as well is the real trick.
In any case, I've got the numbers to shoot for, we'll see what happens otherwise.
CP,
The Picco/Brodak hybrid uses a head button, clamped down with a finned, cylinder head. You say that circlips in the piston rust and break. How does Cyclon retain the piston pin?
In any case, I've got the numbers to shoot for, we'll see what happens otherwise.
CP,
The Picco/Brodak hybrid uses a head button, clamped down with a finned, cylinder head. You say that circlips in the piston rust and break. How does Cyclon retain the piston pin?
#282
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Andy, in all the years I've ran them I've never had a Cyclon or Fora broken down to see first hand how the wrist pin is held in. I assume the wrist pin is hollow and is fitted with a teflon insert that rubs the cylinder wall.
The head button that is clamped down with 4 screws obviously works well enough for G&Z to hold a fist full of 1/2A speed records but it is a source of trouble over time. The buttons need to fit very tight into the liner to postpone erosion from high frequency vibration. The speed flyers might not care because the head buttons are considered "consumables" in their minds.
Mark Rudner published a "How To" article a few years back that showed how to break down the Cyclon .15 over at the MACA website..so there might be info over there for the .049s.
MACA stands for Model Aircraft Combat Association [just in case a search for MACA comes back with 10,000 results]
Aspeed...I had guys tell me that the reed valves were the limiting factor [they would float or flutter]..but they were proven very wrong once I saw a Killer Bee turning a 4.2x4 APC at 28,000 on the ground and easily over 30,000 in the air. Figure the reed is pulsing 500 times per second.
With the lightened piston the KB will hold together at this speed pretty well. I've never shaved a Cox piston far enough down to see one fail. You can make the side walls as thin as a 3x5 index card.
The head button that is clamped down with 4 screws obviously works well enough for G&Z to hold a fist full of 1/2A speed records but it is a source of trouble over time. The buttons need to fit very tight into the liner to postpone erosion from high frequency vibration. The speed flyers might not care because the head buttons are considered "consumables" in their minds.
Mark Rudner published a "How To" article a few years back that showed how to break down the Cyclon .15 over at the MACA website..so there might be info over there for the .049s.
MACA stands for Model Aircraft Combat Association [just in case a search for MACA comes back with 10,000 results]
Aspeed...I had guys tell me that the reed valves were the limiting factor [they would float or flutter]..but they were proven very wrong once I saw a Killer Bee turning a 4.2x4 APC at 28,000 on the ground and easily over 30,000 in the air. Figure the reed is pulsing 500 times per second.
With the lightened piston the KB will hold together at this speed pretty well. I've never shaved a Cox piston far enough down to see one fail. You can make the side walls as thin as a 3x5 index card.
#283
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
So I just checked a KB. It looks like a TD cyl, and head, and a Surestart backplate. All I would have to do is open up the venturi hole a bit, and maybe make a cutter or something to shave off the piston a bit? I already have a mylar reed someplace too, in a Black Widow or something I can raid. I know we tried a Babe Bee with a 1/8" bore and on a bladder with 80% nitro that ran very well. TD cyl and plug. I think it swallowed reeds, but that was before the mylar ones were on the scene. Looks like I have to spend/waste some time on the reedies again :-( I can't even use them at the field without a muffler. Maybe my neighbors field is big enough. Oh I still like the AP and ASP's made in the last two or three years. The GZ .049 and CS .049 not so much. Had some nasty Ucktams too. Russian motors are either boogie or bust.
#284
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
CP,
Thanks for the additional input. I'll get me a few 4.2 X 4 APCs and play around with the idea. Please confrim that all this discussion is about open exhaust? Also, what's the oil type and content in combat/speed fuel?
I have the Picco, a GZ that I re-worked over ten years ago,(never ran it) and the Picco/Brodak hybrid. No KBs though. But with the Cox engine, isn't the ball socket conrod the serious weak point? Castor helps but 28K? Geez, how many flights before you need to tighten the socket in the pin?
About head buttons wearing out. I wonder if they would last longer if they were anodized? Even colour anodizing is far harder than stock and the pores hold oil that would surely help.
Oh,yes,the GZ has a newly installed button to take a turbo. Any recos on the brand and heat range? On 25% nitro?
Thanks for the additional input. I'll get me a few 4.2 X 4 APCs and play around with the idea. Please confrim that all this discussion is about open exhaust? Also, what's the oil type and content in combat/speed fuel?
I have the Picco, a GZ that I re-worked over ten years ago,(never ran it) and the Picco/Brodak hybrid. No KBs though. But with the Cox engine, isn't the ball socket conrod the serious weak point? Castor helps but 28K? Geez, how many flights before you need to tighten the socket in the pin?
About head buttons wearing out. I wonder if they would last longer if they were anodized? Even colour anodizing is far harder than stock and the pores hold oil that would surely help.
Oh,yes,the GZ has a newly installed button to take a turbo. Any recos on the brand and heat range? On 25% nitro?
#285
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
OK, I just spent the afternoon running some B Bee's, Black Widows, and Silver Bee's. It's a nice day, and the field isn't dry yet. Without checking internally for reeds, just running each one and changing heads, I will say I haven't changed my opinion on reedies. None went over 19,200 rpm, only 2 went over 18,000, 2 went about 16,000 (with single port cylinders) and 2 sounded overcompressed or overheating. Just wouldn't really run. They may need overhaul kits/new style reeds. I only have one Surestart backplate to play with, and I am out of energy and interest to play with it right now. These were all with the 4 1/4" -4" prop and only 10% last years fuel. I am aware that the little guys thrive on the high nitro, but I am not impressed yet. A couple motors wouldn't even hold a setting for a whole tank. Even the Wen Mac equalled the best of these. I'll stick to the rotary valve motors for now, and maybe give a last attempt at a Surestart later. The TD heads were good, the Merlin was the same, or only slightly slower in a couple motors, and the low compression head barely worked at all.(it may have just been a old dud) I made a short reach plug insert from an old TD head and sanded a bit off the bottom to get some compression back, and it ran the same in the quicker motors, and kind of sounded overcompressed in some of the other slower ones with the fluttering symptoms of overcompression. I didn't add shims, just used one for now, but it did work somewhat ok.
#287
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Just to compare, I sent in these #'s somewhere, but to compare, my 'average' TD .049 22,900, VA 22,900, Stels 23,800, Norvel 22,500, Wen Mac 19,500 rpm. My GZ was 17,000 and I didn't try my CS normal or piped one on the 4.25" - 4" prop yet. The GZ likely needs some attention to the head, as well as the normal CS. I won't have the Picco done for a while, and welcome #'s from a Fora .049 or the coveted Cyclon. ON 10% and the 4 1/4-4 APC. Coriolan-you snuck in on me, yes maybe varnish, I know one is a leaky needle for sure. It would go pretty fast but not steady.
#288
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Was the VA a MK1 or MK2?
I have them both,,,, this is going to be fun.
I'll have to go out in the boonies though, no mufflers are gonna cause a riot for sure. [>:]
I have them both,,,, this is going to be fun.
I'll have to go out in the boonies though, no mufflers are gonna cause a riot for sure. [>:]
#289
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Probably a mk 1? Just ground off the crankpin *** off and made a spinner for the Picco. Looks like a wierd setup on the crank. Both bearings are the same ID. I have more than .010" endplay, have to turn a bit off the step of the crank? Then finish the backplate and make a venturi and needle valve.
#290
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
ORIGINAL: AndyW
CP,
Thanks for the additional input. I'll get me a few 4.2 X 4 APCs and play around with the idea. Please confrim that all this discussion is about open exhaust? Also, what's the oil type and content in combat/speed fuel?
I have the Picco, a GZ that I re-worked over ten years ago,(never ran it) and the Picco/Brodak hybrid. No KBs though. But with the Cox engine, isn't the ball socket conrod the serious weak point? Castor helps but 28K? Geez, how many flights before you need to tighten the socket in the pin?
About head buttons wearing out. I wonder if they would last longer if they were anodized? Even colour anodizing is far harder than stock and the pores hold oil that would surely help.
Oh,yes,the GZ has a newly installed button to take a turbo. Any recos on the brand and heat range? On 25% nitro?
CP,
Thanks for the additional input. I'll get me a few 4.2 X 4 APCs and play around with the idea. Please confrim that all this discussion is about open exhaust? Also, what's the oil type and content in combat/speed fuel?
I have the Picco, a GZ that I re-worked over ten years ago,(never ran it) and the Picco/Brodak hybrid. No KBs though. But with the Cox engine, isn't the ball socket conrod the serious weak point? Castor helps but 28K? Geez, how many flights before you need to tighten the socket in the pin?
About head buttons wearing out. I wonder if they would last longer if they were anodized? Even colour anodizing is far harder than stock and the pores hold oil that would surely help.
Oh,yes,the GZ has a newly installed button to take a turbo. Any recos on the brand and heat range? On 25% nitro?
You would have to sign into the North American Speed Society and the MACA websites to get the low down about fuel.
Set the engine up so it will run strong on 0% nitro and let the end user shim it to his liking [or modify the head button] for higher nitro. The G&Z and most likely the Picco could use larger screws to clamp down the head. Anodizing the head sounds like a good idea. As for plugs, I like the massiveness and perfect sealing of the Nelson plug.
Speed engines need heavy elements regardless of nitro content..so no need to worry about heat ranges.
Cox engines...if you can make the piston light enough it takes a huge load off the other parts.
I do not honestly remember failing a crankpin or a ball socket after lightening a Cox piston. Piston / liner wear ends up becoming the next weakest link IIRC.
#291
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Thanks CP,
I get it. In combat, no restricitons, the idea is to do whatever it takes to win. As in any airial combat, he he goes fastest has the advantage, I guess.
SO, I'll settle on 25% Cool Power and the 4.25 X 4 APC. The CS (not GZ) engine I have, has the Nelson style head, I have them in two heat ranges. The Picco and the hybrid are set up for turbos, I actually have a Glo-Bee style turbo from that Auzzie outfit. Good time to try it out. Plus a variety of very cold and mediums. Neat.
aspeed,
Yes, that's the MK1,,, the one that started it all for me, oh god, was it TWENTY years ago?? ALREADY?
You know what I hate these days? It's when the young, female cashier calls me "dear". Arrgh,,, that makes me feel old. But I ain't complaining, the alternative isn't much fun at all. [:'(]
Running engines makes me feel young.
I get it. In combat, no restricitons, the idea is to do whatever it takes to win. As in any airial combat, he he goes fastest has the advantage, I guess.
SO, I'll settle on 25% Cool Power and the 4.25 X 4 APC. The CS (not GZ) engine I have, has the Nelson style head, I have them in two heat ranges. The Picco and the hybrid are set up for turbos, I actually have a Glo-Bee style turbo from that Auzzie outfit. Good time to try it out. Plus a variety of very cold and mediums. Neat.
aspeed,
Yes, that's the MK1,,, the one that started it all for me, oh god, was it TWENTY years ago?? ALREADY?
You know what I hate these days? It's when the young, female cashier calls me "dear". Arrgh,,, that makes me feel old. But I ain't complaining, the alternative isn't much fun at all. [:'(]
Running engines makes me feel young.
#292
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Andy....I'm not sure about this but I'll bet if you took a poll of 1/2A C/L Combat flyers who use Cyclon, Fora or Profi the majority would say that 15% is good enough. Just a hunch.
Think I'll head over to Youtube and watch some 1/2A control line....[8D]
[link=http://youtu.be/sFJtbhBeowA]1/2A COMBAT[/link]
Think I'll head over to Youtube and watch some 1/2A control line....[8D]
[link=http://youtu.be/sFJtbhBeowA]1/2A COMBAT[/link]
#293
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
I'd set up for the Turbo plugs.Or Cox if possible. Easier availability than Nelsons at the hobby shops and more heat ranges. Also the exposed diameter inside the combustion chamber is less than a Nelson. About 1 mm makes a difference on a little motor. A .40 not so much. 1/2A speed used to allow any fuel even when the bigger classes restricted it to 10%. I believe now it is 10% in 1/2A too. The AMAuses Sig fuel at the contests and have a pretty good distribution network to get it to the contests. The Canadian speed rules are whatever the US AMAlatest version is. The North West has some of their own rules like F2D Proto (good one) and Perky where it pays off to be average. No one on this side of the Rockies flies speed in Canada any more. PM me if I am wrong. The Picco has nice long 2.5mm hex head screws holding the head. The GZ and CS have shorter slot head screws that I could see need lengthening and tapping deeper.
#294
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Timmins, ON, CANADA
Posts: 2,912
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
CP, aspeed,
Thanks for the additional clarification. I have 10% that I didn't know what to do with,, rarely fly anything over a hopped up OS .10
That link led me to over an hour of fascinating viewing. Lots of young guys in their 40s along with some teens. That's encouraging. I found this http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articl...r_clcombat.pdf quite informative.
I'll make a button to take turbos for the CS,, just a matter of duplicating the combustion chamber volume.
It's all good, lots to catch up on this summer.
Thanks for the additional clarification. I have 10% that I didn't know what to do with,, rarely fly anything over a hopped up OS .10
That link led me to over an hour of fascinating viewing. Lots of young guys in their 40s along with some teens. That's encouraging. I found this http://www.charlesriverrc.org/articl...r_clcombat.pdf quite informative.
I'll make a button to take turbos for the CS,, just a matter of duplicating the combustion chamber volume.
It's all good, lots to catch up on this summer.
#295
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
Excellent article by Mark Rudner.
If there is a REAL niche to be exploited it would be to take the $30 Picco and figure out how to make it reliable to 30,000+ rpm so that you could price it at an amount that makes it worth your while.
If it takes 2 hours to machine the crank, plus more time monitoring heat treatment of an entire batch of parts, reassembly and test firing the engines..that would seem to put the price of the engine at $100.
All this speculation comes from a guy who knows nothing about being a machinist / shop owner. I think $100 gets your "foot in the door" with guys looking for "high performance without a high performance price tag".
If there is a REAL niche to be exploited it would be to take the $30 Picco and figure out how to make it reliable to 30,000+ rpm so that you could price it at an amount that makes it worth your while.
If it takes 2 hours to machine the crank, plus more time monitoring heat treatment of an entire batch of parts, reassembly and test firing the engines..that would seem to put the price of the engine at $100.
All this speculation comes from a guy who knows nothing about being a machinist / shop owner. I think $100 gets your "foot in the door" with guys looking for "high performance without a high performance price tag".
#296
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Montreal,
QC, CANADA
Posts: 422
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
If someone made a 70$ drop in crank that destroked the picco to .049 and had a nice prop stud I would jump on it in a second and I'm sure a few others would too. My first picco ran like a dream until I broke the crank. Venturi could be done the simple way a la CP with a nipple and a remote needle, or TOAD/galbreath with a NVA where the carb retainer usually goes. http://www.the-printer.net/DookCat.html#picco
a 100$ engine I think would really be a sweet spot. I know it's probably tough/impossible, but if a 100$ could buy a reliable fast (30k) engine Im sure more people would get into combat/speed/half-a. I, for one, really want to get into 1/2a proto
a 100$ engine I think would really be a sweet spot. I know it's probably tough/impossible, but if a 100$ could buy a reliable fast (30k) engine Im sure more people would get into combat/speed/half-a. I, for one, really want to get into 1/2a proto
#298
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
crank material, Picco used 8620 carbonized. I used A2 heat treated to 60 rc. I Can do cranks for $70. One that fits a stock case will do you no good, Too small just like stock. The cost goes up with boring the case dead nuts on center and replacing the rear brg to fit a larger crank and what timming do you want.. what do you want in a de stroked larger crank?? the project is a lot more work than people realize. add on the cost of the prop mounting plate, stud and spinner or nut...
#299
RE: Picco P-zero 0.8cc
So lets say I build up 20 engines complete....hoping I sell them to offset my costs..not counting my time.. I bet I couldn't sell them all.
I see them going for $30 for the core, 80 for a crank, 20 for a good rear bearing 20 dollar venturi and 15 for the needle assembly. 15 more for drive plate and spinner nut
just no way to make em cheap in small numbers. I see 180.00 into one and no profit. just a loss.
Seems most folk in here would never pay what it would really cost.
I see them going for $30 for the core, 80 for a crank, 20 for a good rear bearing 20 dollar venturi and 15 for the needle assembly. 15 more for drive plate and spinner nut
just no way to make em cheap in small numbers. I see 180.00 into one and no profit. just a loss.
Seems most folk in here would never pay what it would really cost.