Ditto when a couple of years ago I googled "Peppermint Pattie" and found that people actually remembered that!

Hope you come to the Octoberfest VR/CS in PA next October!

Nic D.

It’s startling how the events in others lives’ can impact your own………
….and that’s all I have to say about that.

The cold has settled back in just in time for me to unwrap the Banshee, and get back to glassing. As noted in a previous post, I ran into some problems with slow curing resin. Well a year later, it has hardened completely. I left some witness samples of the resin mix I used that had given me problems, and they confirm that it had hardened completely. I’m fairly sure that the issue is that the thinned resin simply requires a lot of time to cure when applied as a second coat. The first coat goes on very thin, and much is absorbed into the balsa, which either aids curing, or makes the slow cure unnoticeable. Either way, using un-thinned resin for all additional coats has allowed me to proceed to sanding within 12 hours or so.

I did complete and fly the Super Kaos last year. I was concerned that the Banshee might need a bit more ground clearance for my grass field, and wanted to modify it if needed prior to finishing. However, the Kaos handles okay with a 12x6, and prop clearance is a non issue with an 11x7; the Banshee has 1/8� more clearance than the Kaos. Alls well.

I’m to the point that a decision needs to be made regarding paint. I’m leaning towards Nelson Hobbies paint, as it’s claimed to be brushable, and I might be able to use it in the basement with minimal ventilation. I’m open to other ideas or comments regarding Nelsons’ from others’ experiences.

Thought I’d make certain that I knew where all the pieces were, so she got assembled for a photo shoot. The wing needs a few more coats, and then should be ready for primer. The total weight gain of the wing to this point is (130 grams) 4.6 oz. As pictured below, the total weight is 5# 12.5oz (need to add the remainder of the glass to the fuselage, paint, four servos, receiver, battery, and tank). I’m feeling fairly comfortable about hitting 7.5# or less auw.

Thanks for checking in.

Doug

Very nice plane, you did a good job!
I am always fighting with myself if I need to send an order to Eureka Aircraft and have a Banshee kit in my collection.

Yes, the paint issue. Same for me, in the past I preferred to brush the paint, since I was not really willing to step into spraying. Actually, I used rattle cans to spray the paint and then added a clear 2K fuel resistant coat by brush.
Of course that ruined more or less all the effort done before, especially as that clear coat was not really easy to brush.

I made now in summer the step towards spraying equipment now, a small compressor and a cheap spray gun bought from the bay. I was very excited to do my first paint job, but it worked reasonably well and I will continue to do so. It is a new nice challenge in building techniques. Plane is a Aurora 60.

If you want to brush water based paints, don't overlook Testors acrylic paints. They are intended for model cars but will work fine for planes too. You will likely need to spray a clear coat to better protect the acrylic after everything dries.

I have found the paint to flow out reasonably well as brushed. Their gloss is best described as satin finish and their flat is truly flat. Coverage is very good with minimal effort.

The 5# 12 oz weight is for plane only? No hardware? Or are you including engine and retracts? Hopefully it includes engine and retracts.

MattK,

Seeing your beautiful Banshee is getting me to want to finish mine that I started at least 3 years ago. Actually I was building two at the same time. One was from a Eureka short kit, being modded for Spring Air retracts. The other was from a J&J kit and was going to have fixed gear.

I always have had a "thing" for the Banshee, as I kid I used to call for my Dad at pattern contests, and I remember watching Jersey Jim flying the Banshee. I thought it was the coolest looking plane out there (with Bonetti's Troublemaker being the second coolest). Guess I gotta get my work area squared away and get to it this winter. Keep up the good work, looking forward to see what you do with the finish and trim scheme.

FB

MattK,

Yes, the 5 3/4# is the plane, retracts and wheels, motor/muffler/prop/spinner, and two servos. The items not included in this weight are the remainder of the glass to the fuselage, paint, four servos, receiver, battery, and tank.

I do plan on trying to spray whatever paint is selected, but was leaning towards the Nelson for the potential fall-back position of brushing. Also, I like the idea of being able to brush on the primer, sand, and evaluate the glassing; and that could take several coats of primer, so brushing it on would be an advantage I think.

FreeBird,

Yeah, I got that "thing" for the Banshee too (along with '67 Mustang Fastbacks and Cheryl Tiegs). My wife said something interesting a few days ago when she saw the plane for the first time fully assembled......"Hmmm, that plane just looks right". I agree.

I'm subscribed to your Banshee thread, and look forward to some additional posts. I've been scratching out some paint schemes, and trying to make it interesting, appropriate, and simple. I'm also looking at making the windscreen just a bit more interesting than white paint; but haven't come up with anything yet.

Thanks guys.

Doug

FB,

Sorry, I am not the one building Banshee and I don't take credit. I am friends with Jim however.... And I agree, Banshee was a looker from the start. And with Jim's engine work, the performance was incredible, even to my uneducated eyes when I was 15...

Createx water based auto colors is another source...they also carry metallics and neons

Doug,

nice to see that you are at it again. I have to concur with Matt's suggestions for paint. If you are going to go with water borne paints and don't want to invest in a gun or air brush (and associated gear), try the auto application designed paint. These paints come in very small containers so that you don't have to make a big investment in volume. From what I've heard, Nelsons' is ok but sourcing the paint is another story. It doesn't always arrive... if you know what I mean. I know some people have also had issues when applying it.

Another brand of water borne paint is Auto Air although it might actually be the same stuff as Createx. Auto Air is just a brand not an actual manufacturer. I have seen the results with this stuff and they are very good. I would recommend that for the protective clear coat, you use a two part urethane that should be sprayed for good smooth and glossy results. You can either shoot this with a gun if you decide to use one or you can actually get a great German catalyzed product in a spray can. The company is called SprayMax. I used it recently and it's great. The can action is very much like a gun rather than a rattle can - special cap. SprayMax is actually a pretty neat system all around. You might want to check out their website.

David.

Doug - Found your Banshee thread. Great job, nice. Interesting about the glass cure.

Crank

The fiber-glassing is progressing, but slowly. Yup, resin is interesting stuff…….allow me to ramble for a bit.

After three coats of resin to the wing on top of the applied fiberglass, I’m finding that there are still too many unsatisfactorily filled areas (the resin is very willing to tear/shear when using a squeegee, and when wiped on when first mixed, will actually orange-peel a bit as it thickens). I’m confident that I sanded sufficiently prior to applying the glass, and know that I’m sanding sufficiently to remove all excess resin, as I’ve not added a single gram in weight since applying the first coat of unthinned resin (bare wing at 669 grams, ‘glassed wing, followed by one coat of resin, sanded, weighs 791 grams (4.3oz added)). That is to say that the last two coats of resin have added no weight, as the wing still weighs 791 grams.

I’m going to try filling just the remaining low spots, a quick sand to ensure that they are at least to level or above, another complete coat, then (hopefully) a final sand.

I’m finding that the resin consistently gets thicker from the moment that it’s mixed (doesn’t suddenly “kick� like a quality epoxy will), and I have to modify my method of application while coating a larger area. I’m glad that I ‘glassed the wing first, as straighten out my learning curve on the fuselage would have been more painful.

David/Matt,

I do own an Airbrush and compressor, and would not hesitate to make an investment in a larger automotive type gun if needed. I’m still reading about Auto-Air, and it does seem that they are more aligned to the finishing of this project when compared to using a product that is intended to paint a boat (System 3). Both have their advantages and draw-backs.

I was drawn to the Nelsons (System3) primarily due to it being fuel-proof and being able to start applying the Primer in the basement with a brush mid-January, but the seeming incompatibility with finer work (ie, actually getting a nice finish directly from the paint gun, and needing to roughen all surfaces prior to repainting) makes me ask the question here.

Auto-Air seems significantly easier to obtain a nice finish, but I’m concerned with the durability aspect with only a clear coat. Can anybody speak to the “fuel-proof-ness� of the Auto-Air when a chip/crack occurs in the clear coat? It is an automotive paint, so I’d suspect some level of toughness.

I plan to keep the paint scheme fairly simple, and somewhat in keeping with the time period. However, I suspect that I will push my luck a bit with some small personal detail just to try it.

Thanks for the help and compliments; I’m giving it my best.

Doug

Doug,

3 coats of fiberglass resin is more than typical. Have you weighed components before and after? You should try to do that to get a good idea of how much you are really putting on. Hopefully this suggestion isn't too late. Beware of building heavy wings

The guns I use are fairly inexpensive HVLP type with about an 0.8 mm to 1.2 mm nozzles. That's "high volume low pressure"....You get pretty good atomization with only about 25 psi of air and for larger surfaces I will go as large as 1.2 mm on the nozzle. Puts out more paint at the same pressure, give or take. To me, there is little need to use the expensive guns such as Sata Minijet. Sure these are great guns but I've learned to use the lesser guns just fine. Spray on a piece of cardboard first to figure out the settings before committing to your work. And don't be afraid to use thinner in your paint. For our application, an extra 50% of thinner works just fine and produces a thinner, lighter coat

Another suggestion if I may...since you haven't yet laid down the glass on the fuse, you might consider bedding it with epoxy clear paint from Klass Kote. BTW- their epoxy primer is terrific stuff and feathers beautifully. The primer will accept pretty much any top coat you wish to spray on it

I was talking with Bob Hunt at Christmas and he told me of another water based paint that he really likes a lot. It's DuPont Chromax. This is a polyester paint (similar base to mylar which is what monokote is made of ). Bob said that you can water this stuff 100% easily. It's expensive at 60$ a pint but produces superior results according to Bob.

Not certain of how fuel resistant either Nelson, DuPont CHromax or AutoAir/Createx are. These are all water carrier paints, polyurethane, polyester, acrylic base, in that order. They are gasoline resistant but yours is a glow application I think.

I

Agree to MTK about the HVLP spray gun - that´s exactly the type I am now using.
I think I bought this gun for around 20€, or 25$. Result are very ok for me. It is worth a try.

Doug,

Sorry, I stopped reading after I read "3 coats" of resin. I see that you are taking weights. Good!

The wing should be ready to prime. What I mentioned earlier about Klass Kote primer stands. I admix equal volumes of part A, part B, Johnson's baby powder, and thinner. Let it stand for 10 minutes, remix it and spray it. Cures well enough to wet sand in about 4 hours at 70 degrees (full cure takes longer as all two part paints do). Save the extra paint for touch up where the weave shows through. If you can make the RTF wing come in at less than 2 pounds it will be better. Consider that many will typically build 475 sq inch panels finished but before equipment, weighing in at 12 ozs

Ok, feeling a bit better about how this process works. I wasn’t working with the Finishing Resin, rather trying to make it work as I thought it should…..and I was wrong.

-Don’t play around with it. I’ve managed to get fairly thin, and SMOOTH coats on the wing by pouring a long continuous “S� of resin on the wing, spreading evenly with a squeegee, and then just LEAVE IT ALONE. Previously, all my “touch-up� work after spreading the resin, trying to get a perfect finish, seems to be the main culprit in the tears and pockets. The resin will start to set up immediately, and going back over it continually just rips the resin apart. I have the top of one wing panel done in about 5 minutes.
-I figure that I’ve put on about 1 ¾ oz of resin to finish the wing. This is just the resin on top of the fiberglass, not the fiberglass/thinned resin.
-Using 220 wet/dry sandpaper, I’ve knocked down the resin to the lowest point by sanding to a consistent dull finish. The shiny low spots do act as indicators to let me know that I’ve reached bottom, but still above the fiberglass cloth.
-Speaking of sandpaper, I’ve found that just because I put a new piece on my sanding block 5 minutes ago, doesn’t mean that it ain’t worn out. I have to put my “thriftiness� aside, and frequently replace the paper; makes the task much less tedious.
-Side note; I purchased both Great Planes and Z-Poxy finishing resin about two years ago. A package of the GP resin has set unopened, sealed in zip lock bags, next to some half used Z-Poxy. Looked at the GP resin yesterday, and it was hard as a rock. I’m currently using the Z-poxy without issue. Don’t know what that tells me other than I’m going to stick with Z-Poxy.

Matt/Speed Panzer/David; You’ve talked me into trying the spray paint method, and the Auto-Air Colors. Auto-Air has a lot of information available, and I’m comfortable thinking that I understand how to get good results; have several large pieces of cardboard to practice on when the time comes. The fuselage has been started, and I think it best to finish it as I started it, so I don’t get confused again…..

I think that I will initially brush some System Three Primer (waterborne primer) prior to applying Auto-Air primer and color. I hope that most, if not all of it, will be sanded off, but I do want to have an idea if there are any gross imperfections prior to moving into color.

I do need to purchase a Spray Gun, and am looking at the Sharpe Finex Pro 1000 Mini Gun. Here are the specs;

· Fluid Tips: 0.6mm, 0.8 mm, 1.0 mm, 1.2 mm, 1.4 mm
· Air Consumption (cfm):3.6-6.8 SCFM
· Max Inlet HVLP psi: 29 (2.0 bar, 200 kPa)
· Dry Weight Without Cup: 322 g
· Air Inlet npsm: 1/4 in.
· Finish: Black Nickel
· Cup Size: 125 cc
· Pattern Size: 9.0 in.

Any thoughts on the gun would be appreciated.

Back to work!

Thank you all.

Doug

I can see in your photo that you have a Webra Speed in the nose, but I don't know what muffler that is. Did you need an adapter? Who makes the muffler? Any modifications needed? How does the engine perform with it? Is there a current source? I really need to find a decent muffler for my Webra Speed .61F. I have two older ones that don't have mounting holes and one newer one that does have factory holes for a "bolt-on" muffler. I used a Macs strap-on with an adapter for the engine that was on my Deception. Worked prretty good but looked kind of clunky.

The Banshee looks terrific, but I don't see wing fillits. Are those still coming?

Regarding the spray gun, I'm kind of new at paint spraying, but one of our local club members is a painter in an auto body shop and he provided advice from the beginning. The gun I bought was expensive to me... $100 or so, but cheap compared to the stuff he uses on cars. It has a 1.2 tip - need to get a 1.0 or 0.8. The gun works fine but I had a tough time choosing a reasonably priced compressor. Ended up getting a Makita compressor. So far, seems to be a good choice. The paint on the Deception is Klass Kote.

ChiefK

ChiefK,

The muffler shown on the Webra is an old SEMCO. I’m certain that they are not currently manufactured, but I had one in a box, and picked the one in the photo below up at an on-line auction site (ya, that one). The photo below shows two versions of the SEMCO muffler, the “Flow Through� (115gr), and the sexy dual tail pipe (76gr). The Flow Through, on the right, is actually a tube inside a tube (you can look into the hole in the front, and see right out the back), with the inner tube being drilled full of holes. I believe that they all require an adaptor, but the ENYA adaptor that came with the dual pipe is only a fraction off, and could readily be tweaked to fit the Webra. Performance wise, the Flow Through provides very little restriction, but also, very little silencing. I haven’t run the dual pipe, but it is closed in the front like most modern mufflers, unlike the original SEMCO flow through.

That being said, I haven’t currently flown with either of the SEMCO’s.

Also pictured are an OS Max muffler (135gr), and a MVVS muffler (69gr). Interestingly, both the Max and the MVVS have the same bolt pattern. I drilled and tapped this particular Webra without much difficulty, and the result with about 15 flights are no loosening or leakage. I did a little reading, and am comfortable with the thread engagement, and being able to tighten the bolts as required without stripping out the block. Rather easy to do once I came up with the courage. The aluminum block drilled and tapped nicely.

Still debating the fillets. I would put them on after I finish fiberglassing anyways to avoid having to sand around them.

Good looking bird you have there. Hope mine finishes up as nice.

Doug

This evenings accomplishment (really getting tired of sanding.....), fuselage side covered from nose to LE of stab with one piece of fiberglass. Masking tape runs top and bottom, down the center.

Doug,

Glad to hear that you've decided to give water borne paint a try. It's a little trickier to deal with than solvent based paint but worth it in my opinion. You might also want to consider water borne "varnishes" like Varathane or Minwax to embed the cloth next time. They are very user friendly and clean up and sand easily. Takes a few more passes and coats and is not quite as hard as resin but it's also lighter. It can be also be easily brushed on.

Anyway, I'm advocating something I haven't tried fully but I intend to on my next paint job. Sealing the balsa is paramount though with stuff like polycrilic. I finished a huge pine table with it once and I was very satisfied with the results. Not good as an outer nitro proof layer however. For that I plan to stick with catalyzed urethane CC - excellent stuff, especially over water borne paint.

Looking forward to seeing the progress!

David

David,

What your thinking of sounds similar to a tip I tried a couple of airplanes ago. I applied the .75oz glass cloth with Krylon acrylic. Went on real fast and easy, and sands real easy. Sprayed the airplane with Klass Kote. She looked great. Flew it a few times and the paint started blistering badly, especially where I had dark colors that would absorb heat from sunshine, and around the cowling and muffler. As it got worse, I called Klass Kote and got to talk with one of their engineers. His take was that the non-epoxy base was trying to breath and the epoxy said no can do. Next time around I went back to applying the .75 glass cloth with finishing epoxy, thinned about 40% with MEK. Went on easy, at least until the epoxy started to kick, wasn't too bad to sand, and seems to be a great base for the Klass Kote finish. No blistering in the summer sun.

Greg

DougC1,

I bougth a really cheap HVLP spray gun, for sure it is made in China. But it does the job just fine for me. These are the specs:

Inlet pressure max: 3.0 bar
Air consumption: 3.0 - 5.0 cfm
Air inlet thread 1/4"
Fluid tip (we would call it Jet size): 0.8mm
Cup volume: 125ml
Weight: 250g
Jet and needle from stainless steel

Compressor: This is very cheap 1 cylinder no-name thing, providing max 8bar. Vessel size is 25 litres, about 6.5 gallons. The pressure regulator just needs to be set to 3 bar, and you are ready to go. Gun, mask and compressor together is less than 120$, I would say.

Yes definitely try to spray some card board or plain wood plank first, to get a feeling for the possible adjustments at the spray gun. Environment was my garage, in the autumn it was still warm enough. Do not forget to wear a suitable mask, made for spraying!!!

Next time don't even bother with the epoxy finishing resin....go straight for the epoxy paint, clear with satin hardener as you glass bedding resin. Your finish will be lighter, just as strong as finishing resin and just as fuel proof. Your pot life is around 12 hours minimum so you have lots of working time

Greg,

I remember that incident, you posted some pics of the blistering I think.

I've also learned that it is paramount to get the order if chemicals right as you lay up the finish. What the KK engineer mentioned sound right to me - basically a solvent based CC (Krylon) was used under another chemical based layer (epoxy paint). I think that if the bedding CC had been allowed to cure for a week and then sealed with a primer sealer you might have had no problems. The KK primer would then gave been a thin coat under the actual paint. However, in short, the key is to use a "low reactivity" layer under other reactive layers.

The beauty with water borne products is that once dry they don't outgas. Jeff finished his Aurora using Polycrilic for the glassing and Auto-Air primers and paint so I'm quite confident that that particular combination works. In particular they are both water borne acrylics so cross-reactivity shouldn't be an issue.

David also used Polycrilic to bed the glass on his BA although I don't recall what paints he used but it shouldn't really matter atop polycrilic. Where I have concerns is when top coat urethanes are used for glassing. One can put urethanes atop just about anything but the converse is not true.

The main disadvantage of polycrilic is that it is not as hard as epoxy resin but it offers other advantages.

In any case well see what kind of a mess I end up with when I try it...

David

Matt,

With the KK clear, do you spray a tack coat on to the wood, lay the cloth down and then reshoot it with a heavier layer of CC prior to primer? Or do you even use primer under the paint?

The concerns I've heard about epoxy based clears as top coats is that they are not impervious to UV - reason for which many classics finished with K&B or Hobbypoxy yellowed as the aged. Any thoughts on that?

David

Matt, sounds like a better solution. I'll try it on the Tower Kaos 60 that I have almost to that point.

David, I don't think he was talking about a clear top coat, but using clear KK just to bind the lightweight glass cloth to the bare balsa. I agree that KK clear on top will not be perfectly clear. Even the KK white is not as white as white Coverite.

As an aside, I was testing Minwax spray-can Polyurethane clear gloss as a release coat and top coat for inkjet decals and it worked much - much better than the Krylon acrilic. Glow-fuel residue was eating up the Krylon very quickly, but the Minwax Poly is resisting the glow fuel residue just fine after dozens of exposures.

David, I will be sending you a PM.

Greg

Dave,

Did I ever send you my scribble on how do all of that? Thot I had but could be wrong. Memory ain't what it used to be.

Talking with Bob Hunt a few weeks ago he suggested that the final sanding of the balsa should be with 1500 or 2000 grit, used dry and not completely removed. I think he is right! The sanding particles are small enough to actually fill pores so the next coat of anything will seal better. Balsa is then sprayed with hairspray to initiate the seal, dried, and fine sanded. Alternately nitrate could be used to seal.

Anyway, once sanded, the cloth is laid down on the prepped wood and epoxy clear is brushed right through the weave just the same as using finishing resin. One bedding coat and one seal coat of the glass, sanding in between and after, and you are ready for primer.

With auto air colors you want to spray light coats until it just covers. I am still developing the technique of opacity and lightness using auto air colors. You have got to take your time