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Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Old 08-31-2005, 12:22 PM
  #51  
rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I did the same thing on the last modifications, I just didn't photograph it. I also filed off the bottom edge of the cylinder on the ouside surface of course. You can visualize how airflow is going to be inside something like we do on the outside of airplanes. I am trying to get over 8k with this engine. I also have a Walbro 047 WT 324 carb on a single bbl engine ready to test run. I describe this 5/8" bore carb elsewhere. We don't know what the limit is, unless we push it. I think the 1 bbl has potential. How about a special intake/carb/spacer/manifold for the 2 bbl carb to try on the 1 bbl engine? I also think I can design a low profile intake manifold for the 2 bbl carb to replace the 2 -story original intake which limits how large you can go on the 2 bbl intake port. I would still use the Reed intake tubes, if the current engine runs as well as I think. There is no end to what we can come up with, is there?
Old 08-31-2005, 12:54 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Since I don't have a mill I had to work at this. I just tried to guess how much airflow the port would accept and used "that looks about Right" as a guide. Both of these engines are worth working with. You can come up with more ideas also. The 2bbl engine has a domed (slight) piston to direct the incoming air/fuel charge upward as well as back. Maybe this piston would work in the single bbl version also to raise compression further than it already is. The dome doesn't show up as well as my original, but it is there, about .06" in height. It was unsual to see this in a trimmer engine.
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Old 08-31-2005, 01:13 PM
  #53  
rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

These sound like what I have for single barrel engines. I have five of each to play with. I thought of buying more of them, but I want to start drawing up some airplane designs that I have flying around in my head. The single barrel intakes are huge as you say. Your point about the exhaust needing work looks the same to me, but it somewhat difficult to judge how far you can go with this. I used a file and worked it over. I opened it quite a bit and the engine is now ready to test, with a Walbro 047 Wt 324 as I also stated elsewhere. This is a 15.9mm carb and I also am going to retest it with the 14.2mm Zama I had on there upside down by mistake of course. It was probably about 1 am when I did it.

The 15.9mm and 14.mm refers to the bore diameter at the throttle plate. The Zama carb is somewhere around 9 mm for the venturi size.
Old 09-01-2005, 12:01 AM
  #54  
Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

When I did my exahust port I just evened out the bottom of the port. It is kind of V shaped so I just squared it off. On a 2 stroke they say to raise the exahust port and lower the intake port to advance the timing. I have not done that because there is not alot of aluminum to work with on the top side of the exahust port. And on the 1 bbl model it is already plenty low on the intake side. Also changing the port timing may have ill efects. You won't know unless you try I guess.
I never noticed until you said it the difference in pistons. I am going to run a compression test on both the 1 and 2bbl model and see what difference the domed piston makes. It should make some difference I would think. It may be worth buying one of each of these types of engines and making one great engine out of 2 good ones. Use the domed piston in the 1 bbl model. If there is clearence for it to fit in the 1 bbl model. I may have to try that once. The top of the cyl is different between the two engines. The domed piston may hit at TDC. Too bad when we buy these engines it is kind of a crap shoot which ones we will get.
Old 09-01-2005, 10:29 AM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Yes, it is a crap shoot. One of the reasons for these Toro's power is the compression. I have been able to hand start them a few times when they were warm. That doesn't happen with a lower compression engine very often. Another thing to look for if you swap pistons is will the dome close the gap of the spark plug. The spark plugs are different also as you have noticed. It should be easy to just change the jugs from one type to the other. The first thing I would check if putting a 1 bbl crankcase and piston into a 2bbl jug, is where does the ring gaps and the pins for the rings end up riding in the 2 bbl cylinder. Maybe the ring gaps and pins are the same for both pistons, I haven't checked for this so far. The crap shoot will no doubt cause some engines to be "parts" engines but that is not all bad, considering the price. I am still not sure if I have a bad magneto. I once tested some mags, all were good and worked, with an ohmmeter and got different readings on all of them. I think I know how they are made, but one of these days I am going to do a post mortem on one of them.
Old 09-01-2005, 08:06 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I ran the 1bbl Toro with both carbs as described. The smaller carb runs fine and is going to stay on the engine. The larger carb was fine also, but a hair more touchy to adjust, because it is probably larger than this engines needs. Both carbs gave me 7500/7600 RPMs with my trusty 16x8 Master Airscrew Classic and both 32:1 and 50:1 gasoline mixes. I didn't expect that. It ran cleaner with 50:1 than 32:1 of course, but it wasn't running dirty with the 32:1. Over time carbon would no doubt build faster with 32:1. The exhaust port was cleaned up like we have discussed on here, so these RPMs with my customised Ace Tachmaster are what I see with this engine. It is ready for an airplane, I am done tinkering with it, but it is still not broken in. Now these RPMs are nothing to be ashamed at as they are from a light weight engine with other very good points. I tried a M/A 18x6 Classic prop and both carbs resulted in 7000 RPMs. The acceleration of the RPMs on the Tach were a bit slower, but still climbed to 7000. 16x8 is no doubt the right size range for 25cc, but this engine has torque enough for an 18x6! Tomorrow I will probably test my latest (and probably the last) modifications of the 2 bbl engine. There is one other thing I am working on and that is a low profile carb spacer/intake manifold for the two barrel because it sticks up like an offshore oil platform in the Gulf Of Mexico.
Old 09-01-2005, 08:16 PM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

That is strange that your RPM's are that low. You have done most of the mods the same as I have. They are still good numbers for a very inexpensive engine but lower than mine. I use a laser tach acurate to .05% so 5 rpm in 10,000. With an APC 16x8 I now get 8000 - 8100 on all engines. With an APC 16x8 I think it was around 7400 - 7500 or so. With a 20x6 zinger it was 6500 -6800. Very good for a little engine like this. I still have not done a 1bbl engine but expect to get around the same rpm or more with the larger intake. I also use a pitts style muffler I make with 1 9/16 ID tube and a 11mm carb. Also a velocity stack and an intake I make to turn the carb.
Old 09-02-2005, 09:21 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

The RPMs I am getting maybe partly due to me using a different prop. A M/A classic is a wide bladed prop. I am going to get a few APCs to try but not right now. I am going to be happy with 7500 rPMs or therabouts. I got 7000, remember with a M/A Classic 18x6 and thats not bad at all. Now to me tinkering with a 2 bbl engine. Your words about maybe getting "ill effects" are ringing in my ears. I think I got a bit of that. I got 8000 RPMs, but not as I supposed I would. I tried leaving the Reeds in operation with my last tweaking of the directional" ports. I think I made them a tad too high. The 2bbl carb did not operate as well as it had before when I first "slotted" the intake manifold as in the photo. Now I got a really nice 2000 RPM idle, but it would bog down on acceleration. (Remember I am using the stock muffler on all tests.) While trying to get it up to full power, it bogged, so I tried holding my finger on the 2nd barrel of the 2 bbl carb and the engine went right up to 7700/7800. I then removed the carb and intake manifold and stuck a rubber hose up one of the openings that feed the Reeds, into the 2 bbl chamber and pulled it down the other Reed feeding tube, thereby blocking both tubes, for a test. I reassembled it all as before putting the blocked rubber tubes back in place as designed. Running this way I eventually got it to 8100 RPMs. I now am going to forget about the Reeds and the 2 bbl carb. Maybe I will play with the 2 bbl carb later, but this engine is going to be basically like yours conversions. A Walbro will be on here next. There is .040" below the Port covers and the bottom of the cylinder, I might steal about half of that to lower the ports, and raise the compression (a side effect). There is about .060" between the dome of the piston and the spark plug, so it should work. This experimenting can get tedious. I think I will work on some practacalities like carb spacers and mufflers. Getting the total width of the engine to be less would be a nice goal. This engine can recover, but you CAN push the limits too far.
Old 09-02-2005, 09:39 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I forgot about the Tachs, I have an Ace Tachmaster that I added a 10K, a 15k and a 20k scale to the 5k and 25k scales that it was designed with along with a 2/3 blade switch. I hated the dinky slide switch it originally had. The self calibrating feature using a 60 cycle light bulb in the house still works and seems to be right on, but I never have checked this against something like yours. I am using a different prop and Tach, so this definitely is not a controlled experiment. The thrust from these engines I am running would definitely pull an airplane, so who knows how accurate my Tach really is? It did give me an 8k reading with a 25cc Weedeater which surprised me when all I could get out of 21cc Weedeaters was 7k. It was accurate enough until I started this business of convering engines. What Brand of Tach are you using and was it designed for airplanes. I don't remember seeing a lot of Laser Tachs on the market.
Old 09-02-2005, 09:42 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I forgot about the Tachs, I have an Ace Tachmaster that I added a 10K, a 15k and a 20k scale to the 5k and 25k scales that it was designed with along with a 2/3 blade switch. I hated the dinky slide switch it originally had. The self calibrating feature using a 60 cycle light bulb in the house still works and seems to be right on, but I never have checked this against something like yours. I am using a different prop and Tach, so this definitely is not a controlled experiment. I am in Pennsylvania at an altitude of around 1200 feet above sea level which can affect the "experiment" also. The thrust from these engines I am running would definitely pull an airplane, so who knows how accurate my Tach really is? It did give me an 8k reading with a 25cc Weedeater which surprised me when all I could get out of 21cc Weedeaters was 7k. It was accurate enough until I started this business of convering engines. What Brand of Tach are you using and was it designed for airplanes. I don't remember seeing a lot of Laser Tachs on the market.
Old 09-02-2005, 09:54 PM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I understand the wider blade prop will make a difference. The reeds are a big problem I think. Toro only used them for a year I believe. Then they went back to a single bbl carb. The reeds do make it nice for us because it allows us to open the boost ports up easier. I still have not converted a single bbl model but will this weekend. I think they will do as well or better. I do need to modefy the deck of the case to allow all the airflow possable from the 4 piston ports. They look like they are partially blocked stock. They are not overly large anyway so I want them to flow as well as possable.
If the 2bbl model is modified to use a single bbl walbro carb you can get close to 8900 out of them on an APC 16x8 prop. the most I have goten so far is 8650. But the engine that did it is not broke in yet. A good 4 - 5 gallons will be needed to do that on this engine i think. I just use alumiweld to fill in the reed valve covers and then remove the reed valve. I then put the screw that held them back in from the outside to plug that hole. You could make covers for them but i found it to be very tedious. Not bad if you are only doing a couple engines but a pain for a bunch of them. I can't wait to see what I can get out of the 2bbl model. The intake will require no work at all. The exahust will get my usual treatment. I also may cut away the aluminum between the 2 piston ports on each side up about 1/4 inch to allow better flow. The weird thing about these engines is the ports on the 2bb, even modified, are much smaller than a homelite or poulan. But the engine puts out a ton more power than either. Hard to figure. Two rings must make a huge difference.

Oh, I also have hand started mine many times. Even cold. As long as you don't flood them they always start fairly easy. Even a BME 50 with electronic ignition starts hard from cold by hand. 10-15 flipps most of the time. The Toro does better than that for me most of the time.
Old 09-02-2005, 09:59 PM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Go on ebay for a laser tach. They are used for things other than planes. You put a piece of reflective tape on the back of the prop for it to read. They are very accurate. They run around $50 on ebay. I bought one because I usually test run in my workshop and light is a big issue with the regular tachs. This one will read in total darkness. It does however have trouble in bright sunlight. Then a regular airplane tach works well. I just got sick of getting bad readings in less than perfect light conditions with my airplane tach.
Old 09-02-2005, 09:59 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

A side note, Yes these engines are "inexpensive", your word, because we are getting them surplus. Care to venture what they would cost, if we had ordered them to the same specifications, materials, machine work etc. I have been in this hobby for about 50 years with a few breaks here and there. One was still aviation oriented when I was after my Pilot's license. In the fifties or sixties if we had access to these engines, we would have gone nuts. There wasn't much of anything, compared to what is availiable now. (The glo engines didn't even have carburetors.) Most of what we wanted or needed we made ourselves.
Old 09-02-2005, 10:04 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I almost bought one of those Tachs on Ebay. I already have a Tach and didn't know of anyone else that had one of those Lasers until now, so I passed, but now I will no doubt buy one.
Old 09-02-2005, 10:08 PM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Actually these engines were all rejected from Toro. They all have somthing wrong with them. The first 20 I bought all had "Low Rpm" writtten on them in red greese pencil. Well by the time I got done with them that wasn't a problem The ones I have now all have somthing wrong with them too. Some have stripped screw holes on the plastic parts. A dumb reason to scrap a whole engie. Others say bad carb or somthing else. None have any problems with the engine itself. Look for red greese pencil on them. Somwere there will be somthing writen or circled.
Old 09-02-2005, 10:09 PM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I actually have an extra one if you want it. I would sell it for whatever you can find one for on ebay. I paid way too much. I bought them before i knew they were on there. I bought them from Mac tools. Live and learn

Old 09-03-2005, 09:30 AM
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I know about live and learn also. I found Tachs on Ebay last night and already bid on one. I also found the red grease pencil marks on the engines. I have not found anything seriously wrong with an engine. A bad carb would not be likely, but wouldn't matter. I thought it over about the Toro/Walbro rotary carbs, they are OK, BUT, we are after maximum power so we are no doubt better off with a 2 needle carb, Walbro or Zama, so we can be sure of how we are running the engines.

The Rotary carbs looked like a very low mounting would be possible, that was interesting, but not the only consideration. I ran one of the engines without a muffler, they are not that loud to begin with, compared to a chainsaw, so I am going to work on a slimmer mufffler.
Old 09-03-2005, 11:25 AM
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Hi Scott,
One of the things that I noticed about the Toro is the extended piston skirt blocking the transfer pots to the case. This is done I beleive to assist the reed valve function in the two barrel configuration. Since all of my engines have the normal single barrel setup this hurts performance. Have you modified the pistons as seen in my photos? I ordered two two barrel versions from Doug. I hope that I get at least one two barrel. The engine has much potential. I thought I would pass along some info on port timing. You may already have this, but here it is anyway. Single bbl: Intake opens 60 degrees before top dead center. Exhust opens 65 degrees before bottom dead center. Transfers open 51 degrees before bottom dead center. These are fairly conservative timings. Most chain saws exhust open at 75 degrees BBDC and trans fers open at 55-58 degrees BBDC. Saw intake is about 70 degrees BTDC. Thanks for all of your input to the thread. It is much better then I thought It would become.

Dave
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Old 09-03-2005, 11:59 AM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Thanks for the Info Dave. I think you are correct. These engines have way more potential than we even know. I was going to check all of the port timing but have not done it yet. Your info helps alot. I will have to try the piston trimming you showed. The only thing that worries me about it is engine ballance. These engines are very smooth running. I machine and ballance the flywheels. I do that on all engines. The Toro once on a plane, even mounted solid, does not have much for vibration. I wonder how much cutting down the piston will effect that. I suppose a person could gring a little on the counter weights to even it out. It would only take a small ammount.
Old 09-03-2005, 01:11 PM
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rollmyown
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Hi dave, Soon as I looked at your photos, I wondered about balance like Scott is thinking. What your doing is interesting. Any chance to run it yet. Everyone mentions how smooth these engines run, and they do, but I have noticed a resonant vibration as the engine is accelerated. This is common with all single cylinder engines as you must already know. The connecting rod looks like it is light enough and who knows you could have very well come up with something. It is possible than it could run even smoother. Have you run your Weedeater yet. My Weedeaters run smoother, even more so, than the Toros and I love that about them. Any way to weigh what you removed for future reference?, It would require a powder scale or equivalent scale. I am going to look at my engine, I have the jug off and am getting ready to take about .020" from the bottom because I got a bit aggressive with raising the intake ports. I also need to write down your port timing measuements, I just can't keep that kind of stuff in my head anymore, thanks for giving them. I printed your photos and they came out great. I just noticed that your piston now resembles some automobile pistons. This is for a single barrel engine, correct? I can't wait to hear a running report. Good job so far.
Old 09-03-2005, 01:30 PM
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Hi,
If you think about it, The percentage of weight that the material removed represents is very small. When balancing a single cylinder engine, the lighter you can make the piston assembly the better. The wrist pin is a solid bar and the top half of the rod is steel also. These to items alone equal way over half of the recipitating weight. If the piston losses 15% of its weight, that is probally less than 5% of the total recipitating weight. Over the years manufactures have produced glow engines in ringed and lapped versions using the same counter weight and shaft. The ringed engines have aluminum pistons and the lapped have heavy steel pistons. Both run fine. I havn't run it , because I don't have a prop hub yet. I'll let you know when I do.

Dave
Old 09-03-2005, 02:06 PM
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

We use to cut pistons like this when we ran a pumper carb on a raceing Hodaka Ace 90.

It didn't seem to make any difference in the balance at all, and they turned around 12,000rpm.

For a time we cut windows in the in the piston, where the intake manafold aligned with the piston.

This only worked with reed valve motors. This weakened the piston quite a bit but made good power.
Old 09-03-2005, 11:06 PM
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Hi Scott,
Since I got your attention, I thought that I'd ask you a question. On the McCulloch 38cc's that you converted did you do anything special for the thrust bearing? My Mac's shaft will have to ride on the end of the roller bearing cage. Is this what you did with yours?

Dave
Old 09-04-2005, 02:47 AM
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Scott Ellingson
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

I believe ther is a washer there? I can't remember for sure. It has been a while since I have done one. They vibrate very bad. Good power but not worth the vibration. After you run it a few times you will find they have alot of crank play. Up and down. That is the main reason for the vibration. Needle bearings are just not as tight as ball bearings. I tried to find better ones but from what I have been told those are very good. But no, I didn't do anything special on the cranks. I quit converting them because of the vibration. Maybe you will have better luck than me. Some were better than others. I think the cranks are not ground very precice.
Old 09-04-2005, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: Who is converting Toro trimmers?

Hi Scott,
Thanks for the great information. I have a 33cc version with a front 12mm carb. I ran it before stripping the saw down and I didn't notice any excess vibration. I am hoping that the smaller displacment will be easier on the roller bearings. The flywheel was heavy at the magnet end which should make more vibration since it opposes the counter weight. Did you balance your flywheels? I am going to run it since It uses a standard 5/16x24 hub. I don't have to invest in any hardware.

Dave

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