Sandbag Special

My Feedback: (5)

This is a document composed by my father specifically addressing SEMPRA Members.

Matt

FELLOW RACERS:

I am talking to SEMPRA members only!

In the late 60's I was one of the pylon racers that started FMPRA which was later changed to SEMPRA. I raced until 1980. I served 3 years as FMPRA sec/treas. In 2004 I rejoined SEMPRA along with my son Matthew. We have been racing SEMPRA ever since.
I hate politics, and standing on a soap box is the last thing I want to do. I want to make sure each of you knows about what I feel could be the end of SEMPRA as we know it.
Several years ago, SEMPRA started racing the 424 class with a good set of easy to enforce rules. The 424 racing has done for SEMPRA exactly what it was designed to do. It provides SEMPRA with a class of racing for the sport pilot who wants a cheap, no hassle event. For less than $200, you can buy an ARF and a Thunder Tiger 40, put your sport radio in it and be competitive. The SEMPRA rules have kept 424 race winning times in the low 1:50's to the high 1:40's with fast time usually in the low 1:40's. This is 30 seconds slower than the average 428 race winning time. Perfect for a sport class. 424 as it was designed to, also provides an event where a serious racer can gain the right kind of experience necessary to compete in 428 class. Today, more than half of SEMPRA 428 pilots started as 424 pilots!
Now let me tell you what I am upset about!
Both AMA and NMPRA have made changes to their 424 rules. Lets start with AMA. AMA has done away with the 16,500 RPM max we use. This will now open the door for the after market piston and sleeve, the new ceramic bearings and the reworked cylinder head which will use the stock Thunder Tiger head shim. Using these parts in the Pro 40 will turn the 9/6 APC close to 19000 RPM. The piston and sleeve is guaranteed 800 to 1000 RPM increase, alone. Plan on the total cost of these parts, adding $200 plus, to the cost of each engine, if you install them yourself! Yes, these parts are illegal! The only way to police the use of these parts will be an engine teardown. They will not be painted orange. What contest director needs the added responsibility of tearing down all the 424 engines after or before a race? AMA also changed the minimum Q-500 weight to 3 3/4 lbs. Who knows why?
Now on to NMPRA. They are now allowing 428 pilots to enter any 424 event. As you know, SEMPRA rules do not allow this! What possible good would a 424 regulars ego receive by being lapped 2 or more times by a 428 racer? Someone with the talent of say...Randy Bridge, could easily do this. (Randy, I only used your name because you are the best.)
Winning a 424 race will become impossible for any regulars. NMPRA will also allow a 424 racer to compete in three 428 races per season, to see if he likes it. How many 424 racers have an extra $2000 to put together a couple 428 Q-500's, that he plans to race in a maximum of 3 events? Our SEMPRA rules are simple, enforceable, well thought out and proven successful.
The Mulberry race is the start of our 2007 season. I urge you to direct Tom and Vern to leave SEMPRA rules unchanged for the 2007 season. If a group wants to put on a SEMPRA race and give SEMPRA points, they need to use and enforce SEMPRA rules. I support new rules that promote and make racing better. AMA and NMPRA 2007 changes certainly are not good for SEMPRA! We could easily wind up killing 428 racing as they did several years ago in New England, when they screwed around with their 424 racing rules. Today, 2 classes of 424 is all they race.

Let's Race!

Jack Fehling

dwbebens

In reference to this same letter that Jack Fehling was passing-out at the Mulberry 500 race this last Weekend concerning SEMPRA 424 racing rules:


I agree almost completely with everything that Jack said in his letter. The only thing I’m neutral on is the weight limit change in 424 and 428. There has been a huge amount of discussion on the racing forums about the weight change issue and I won’t go into it again. I really don’t think this change will affect anything much.

I, like Jack, have been racing a long time. I started in 1975 and raced Q-15, the original Spickler Quickee 500 with the K&B 40 engine, ½ A, F-1, and Sport Pylon. I have seen the detrimental effects that “inch-worming” the rules can have on a racing class. In very short order, the event no longer resembles its original form. It no longer meets the needs of the people for whom it was intended. It no longer addresses and solves the original problems for which it was created. What actually happens is that the class then bumps into and encroaches onto the next higher class, creating basically a duplication of classes. This results in the eventual extinction of one of those classes (generally the original higher class) and the abandonment of the original lower class. This leaves two groups out in the cold. The original lower class pilots, and the higher class pilots that became duplicated.

Examples:

- Goodyear --> F-1 --> EXTINCTION

- Q-15 --> stock non-schnuerl 15 engine and stock prop --> Rossi engine at $60 & stock prop --> Rossi & Cox engines at $60 any prop --> any engine and prop at any price --> EXTINCTION --> Q-40

- The original “Spickler” Quickee-500 with the K&B 40 engine --> all kinds of engines and all kinds of planes --> pylon engines and modified props --> Animal Quickee --> thus aiding in the extinction of F-1 --> 428

- And possibly; 424 --> 428 clone!


A class of racing in which the rules are allowed to be “inch-wormed” so that a state of escalating “speed creep” develops, always evolves into yet another expensive, high-end, high-maintenance, beginner excluding class for the top echelon of very skillful pilots who will do and spend anything to compete at the highest level. I want you to understand that I have absolutely no problem with those who chose to compete at that high level. I admire them and aspire to someday be in that class. But, please, leave 424 alone. Entry level pilots, novices, and many others need and want what 424 offers. There are already two very fast racing classes that already meet the needs of the very best racers.

Now we have 424 for the entry level people and novices, 428 for the go-fast people, and 422 for the really go-fast people. Each of these classes was created and designed to address and solve various problems within the pylon community. Each of these classes was created to meet the needs of certain people. It is my opinion that SEMPRA 424 should stay as it is. Please don’t change it.

Doug Bebensee

[email protected]

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

Losing that 16,500 rule was not a good thing. I never saw anyone adhere to that rule until I moved to Florida, at which time I witnessed Freeman Jr. taching motors in the mornings. And it worked... my first race out here, Jr. noticed an airplane in 424 going pretty damn good... so he stopped the pilot/caller on the way back to the pits...made them fire it up... and yes sir...it turned over 17,500... so that meant, those two went back to the pits after the morning tach inspection process and either changed to the cheater motor cheater motor or broke the rules in some other way. Either way, by not having that 16,500 rule in place.. you open the door for all kinds of issues. After market engine parts, basically bringing the pocket book into play a bit more. NOT GOOD.... Stock is Stock, what part of that don't we understand...geez.

As far as "proven" 428 pilots. What the hell you thinking?? You don't belong in 424... unless...and that's a case by case unless.... a guy should be permitted to participate in 424 if he falls on hard times and can't afford the 428 stuff anymore. Or maybe the event is a 424 only event.. in which cases I think it would be okay. But bouncing back and forth between those classes is stupid..!

The new weight rule... that's all smoke and mirrors. In NO WAY will that help the hobby/sport.

Almost forgot... Marcus Blanchard is having a big race up in South Carolina, November 4-5... I think there is a BBQ on Saturday evening at the field, that would be a perfect time to have a big group discussion.


Randy Bridge
Team USA F3D

kane

This is an interesting interpretation of the cause and affect of racing. Jack since you have been around pylon for a long time you can surely understand that events come and go, and NOT one single action has a direct affect on the end result. 422 did not kill formula one. FORMULA ONE killed itself! Rule changes did not kill QM15, small airplanes, lack of participation and effort killed QM15. Rule changes are set into motion for many different reasons. Everyone can speculate why and how. Only the proposer knows the true impetus, the rest of the population can only speculate, disagree, agree and piss and moan about it. This voice and opposition is what keeps us going.

As far as rules... The 16,500 rule is gone from the AMA rulebook event 424. Why? I submitted a proposal, because:

1. it was difficult to enforce.
2. it was difficult to police.
3. Not everyone around the country was using the rule, in fact a majority were not.

There is nothing in the rules that prevents SEMPRA or any other organization from enforcing this rule. The AMA rules are a set of guidelines. If the regional organizers wish to keep track of their own set of rules so be it. Just remember what is good for you guys in Florida, is not good for the guys in other parts of the country. Therefore, I don't think it is fair to attack the AMA or the NMPRA for something that your local community can control. Jack your post started out on the right foot but digressed. You should have not included the AMA and NMPRA in your complaint. The AMA rule making body consists of 11 individuals each representing a different region of the US. In order for a rule to be accepted it needs 6 votes. That means that 6 regions of the US must agree. If one disagrees it is in the minority and majority wins. Therefore, any rule that passed must be reviewed and checked for validity. In some cases not everyone agrees and in some cases everyone agrees. It is easy to become an monday morning quarterback. It is very difficult to become an sunday afternoon star.

As far as changing parts in an engine for $200 and being a world beater... IN MY BOOK THIS IS CALLED CHEATING! If someone decides to cheat, they have made a decision to do so. Regardless of the rules they have chosen to cheat. IF anyone feels strongly about a contestant not following the rules please read the protest proceedures. IF you feel strongly about another competitor's engine ensist that your local area enforce the claiming rule that exists in the provisional section of the 424 rules.

How to deal with suspected cheating...
1. you can complain about.
2. you talk about that person behind their back.
3. you can ignore it.
4. you can work harder.
5. you can confront the person face to face.
6. you can put your money where your mouth is and protest the individual or individuals.

The trend here is that only you can make a difference. So either become part of the solution or remain part of the problem. This is not directed to anyone specifically in this post unless it pertains to your position on cheating.

Doug, you have forgotten about FORMULA 2 and 1/2A racing.

Dan

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

So as far as SEMPRA goes. Sounds like all Jack would need to do is write a proposal to the SEMPRA president concerning the RPM thing and the 428 flyers crossing over to 424. There's no reason why we can't make all this happen on the local level for SEMPRA.

Dan. When a rule is proposed. Is there anything written by the proposer that explains in some detail as to why the proposer wishes to have a/the rule altered?

Randy

kane

Randy,

I don't know the procedures for SEMPRA. However, I would think that all it would take is some discussion amoung the group. Here in the CAPS we had the FAB 5 which consisted of 5 members who would decide on such things. AND for sure there is absolutely no reason why you can't re-instate the 16500 rule at the local level. If this will increase participation, more power to you guys.

As far as the proposal process for the AMA, there is a section titled intent. This intent needs to be defined, and is filled out by the proposer.

In regards to the intent of the 428 weight increase... I don't recall the exact wording, but I remember it to be along the lines of updating the rules to be more consistant with 422, which is 50 square inches smaller and .5 lb heavier. The logic was that the same equipment is being used for both events and the airframes are smaller but can weigh more.

Dan

garys

Randy, exactly. There's nothing that prevents SEMPRA from adding additional limitations as they see fit. I think the rules proposals do have an explanation for the rules change.

The APRA rules have been used on the west coast since before the 424 rules have been around. The rules require the approved engines to be "stock". Modified or aftermarket top-ends, heads, ect, are not stock. The APRA rules have never had an RPM limit. The reason was how exactly should it be enforced? Is the RPM max to be done at "peak" or the "flight needle" setting? I don't think the 424 rule with the RPM limit said how the RPM was to be checked. Frankly, a stock, well broken-in TT40 can turn some stock 9-6 APC's over 16,500, so you're going to penalize a guy that properly breaks in his engine because it turned 16,600 when it was checked? I also don't believe an RPM limit will eliminate cheating, or not having one will promote cheating. What will help prevent cheating is tech inspections. Your example proves this point, as somebody had their engine inspected before the race, then went and changed it prior to the contest. The only way to have a rule that can prevent cheating is to have a rule that says anything goes.....The only real way to reduce cheating is to inspect things.

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

Good points Gary, thanks. When/If Jack decides to write a rule he needs to be specific about what method of "peak rpm" is to be used.

I also agree, it's hard to enforce. Hell, it's all getting hard to enforce. people fueling in the pits, no scale to weigh planes, then when there is a scale the guys just walk back to the pits and you have to go remind them to come back to weigh. On and on... Sounds like Freeman Jr had the scales working last weekend though, so maybe things will get turned around out here.

great input guys, thanx
RB

daven

My Feedback: (1)

With the revised weight limit for 2007, I sure hope scales are used at contests.

garys

You can bet they will be in Phoenix, not sure about other places though....

Scorpion Racing

Jack is correct, as well as most of the other comments too. Rick and I, along with the SEMPRA leaders made it a point to do Tech inspections at registration, safety inspections, full measurements for rule compliance, fueling stations and impounding the planes prior to the race and weighing EVERY heat winner prior to awarding points. We also did 424 line inspections throughout the day, just to keep everyone honest. And you know what? We had a wonderful turnout, really tight racing and a great season opener!! I believe if you do the inspections, and hold everyone to the rules, it sets everyones mind at ease that they have an even field, and rules out the !QUOT!cheating!QUOT! excuses! I feel the race went very well, and everyone I spoke with felt so too. I agree with Jack, lets enforce the rules, hold the competitor responsible for his actions, and see who comes out at the end.


Scott Smith

Sandbag Special

My Feedback: (5)

Matt

SCORPION 2

First of all I would like to thank everyone that turned out at the race in Mulberry last weekend. I hope that everyone enjoyed the weekend as much as I did running in on Saturday and racing in it on Sunday. I wish we could draw some of the member states racers down here for a race or two. I know that some of us in FL are looking at coming up North for a race here and there.

Secondly, I would also like to thank Gary for his assistance in getting and pushing for us to be tighter on the tech inspections and weighing the heat winners. Because of this, we had a very competitive weekend unlike I have seen before. Many of the heats were decided within a second between first and second place. For the first time we could have used a photo finish to determine several heats. GREAT FLYING GUYS!!

Thirdly, as a novice 424 racer, I entered this class/event/sport/hobby as a way to learn the ropes and hopefully be competitive in my class and maybe someday move up to the 428 class. As a beginner I knew that I could not beat the guys that have been racing for several years yet I knew that if I was on a level playing field, there was always a chance as I learned the ropes. All I heard about when I first started was a shim here or a reporting there would give you an (illegal) edge. I don’t have the money to go out and buy 10 engines and swap parts until I have the fastest engine that would run over 16,500 RPMs.

Lastly, Jack has a great passion for this event. I see him and his family at every event I attend. He is the nicest person that I have meet at these events even when I cut him in half during a race (sorry Jack). That speaks volumes in my book. I like the way SEMPRA 424 racing is presently regulated and would only hope that it continues. Taking away from the rules because they are hard to enforce is no reason to take them away. CD have a responsibility to make sure that they are following the rules of the sanctioning body for which the event is sanctioned. I would have loved to race both days last weekend, as would have Scott, but we decided that we need to run the race each day as the CD and not a competitor to make sure that the rules were followed and the event was a success. If we, as members of SEMPRA, NMPRA, AMA and/or any other organization sit by and let things happen without expressing our voice, then we deserve what we get. Everyone needs to let our representatives know how we feel. Send them an e-mail, talk to them on the phone, pull them aside at a meet. Let them know how you feel. I would hope these organizations would listen to their membership.

I like the fact that when we were all on the line and the flag dropped, it’s not really a mechanical advantage, but a skill level that will win. That is what a beginner class is all about, developing skills…..

Sorry about the novel…..

Rick Ruede
AMA CD8994

kane

Matt, that is how the post started but then turned, and was directed to why and how the AMA and NMPRA do things. It should have just stayed with a discussion concerning how to fix SEMPRA if it was truly directed to SEMPRA members only.

As far as..."Taking away from the rules because they are hard to enforce is no reason to take them away. CD have a responsibility to make sure that they are following the rules of the sanctioning body for which the event is sanctioned." Great quote Rick. If a rule is difficult to enforce what are you supposed to do with it? Yes the CD has the responsibility, and yes the CD can deviate from the rules. This is not a new concept, every SEMPRA race prior to the TT40 being adopted had to deviate from the current 428 rules. I am confused at your statements. SEMPRA has always deviated from the AMA rules. This just needs to continue in a way that SEMPRA can agree on. IT has nothing to do with AMA or NMPRA.

The bottom line is the SEMPRA guys need to work together to establish rules that fit their needs. IF and only if the current AMA 424 rules do not work. IF the AMA rules work for your needs then the CD's MUST follow the procedures and guidelines in the AMA manual.

Dan

Sandbag Special

My Feedback: (5)

Look guys I don't want to start a contraversy here. All I want is to ensure the future of pylon racing and the continuation of our sport as it is. I have not been racing a great number of years but, like many of us started flying in the 424 class and believe that the methods taken by Rick and Scott this last weekend are exactly what are needed to maintain interest to new members and keep a low cost entry level event that someone without a great knowledge of engines or pylon can be successful. For example, this weekend was only the second race ever that my friend Dan ever attended. He is 15 years old and has only been to 4 days of racing total, yet has already attained 3 trophies. All he had to do prior to starting racing was spend $225 for an airplane (predator II), TT Pro 40, a batch of 9x6 APC's, and some standard servos. He is not a very experienced builder and by no means an expert in the field of engines, however it was easily possible for him, ON HIS OWN, to build a competative aircraft and make a standard TT engine turn in the neighborhood of 16,500rpm and have a fun weekend where all aircraft in the same class were within 10% of each other. In my own opinion, which I do not believe to be all knowing by any means, is that doing periodic RPM checks on the line before a race, random baffle checks, and weighing the winning aircraft after each heat is all that is needed to maintain a fun and easy entry level class that anyone can be competative in. I do not believe that people outside of the 424 class should be allowed to race 424, why on earth would you want to, and that the 16,500rpm should not be eliminated. There has to be a line drawn somewhere that keeps the average modeler competative against someone with years of experience. When I flew 424 for a single season in SEMPRA I felt is was exactly what was needed to make the transition to the 428 and Q-4 class of racing. At 15 I was able to build, and run my own engines, without the help of my father and stay at a competative level fo performace. We must ensure that there are limitations that keep new racers in this hobby competative with people that could engineer advantages. I am sure that some people, like my father for example if they wanted to with their vast knowledge of RC, could make a TT turn a 9x6 over 18,000rpm if they wanted, and honestly, how long are these new pilots going to continue paying ttravel, equippment costs, and wasting their time flying against someone that no matter how hard they try get lapped 2 or 3 times a race just because of the difference in their engines. Once again, I am not preaching a method I believe to be the absolute best, but just trying to ensure the maximum fairness for pilots new and old to racing in the 424 class, which later on will fuel our higher classes of racing, keepin pylon alive and well for all of us to enjoy.

I'm sorry if this does not agree with some of you out there, and once again i'm just trying to make sure that racing stays fair for anyone whom descides to try it, but in all honesty, by weighing a winning plane after a heat, sticking a rod in a muffler now and then, and pinching a piece of tubing while taching rpm is just some of the rules I believe keep a fair playing field for everyone. If you cannot handle playing within the rules, join the rest of us in 428 where there is no rpm limit and you can go as fast as you want.

Matthew Fehling

Sandbag Special

My Feedback: (5)

Also just to elaborate, I dont care what anyone outside the SEMPRA region does in 424, you can wax an FAI for all I care, I just want the flyers in my region to have a fair and fun atmosphere where they can hone in on their skills and become contributing memebers of our hobby for years to come.

Matt

RCbamm

My Feedback: (10)

I agree with Matt and his Father. if I hade to spend over 700$ on a 424 racer just to keep up with guys racing their modded 424 racers, I wouldn't be in this sport. I believe that the 16,500rpm rule should stay! racing at Mulberry was a breeze! it felt good knowing NO ONE is cheating when you raced. I didn't mind at all taking my plane to get it weighed after I won a race.

Scott and Rick were awesome at Mulberry and did an awesome job!

Dan Kane. I do NOT agree with you on how to deal with some one cheating

Quote:

"How to deal with suspected cheating...
1. you can complain about.
2. you talk about that person behind their back.
3. you can ignore it.
4. you can work harder.
5. you can confront the person face to face.
6. you can put your money where your mouth is and protest the individual or individuals"


there would be to MUCH CHAOS at a race!


Just keep the rules they way they are.


best regards

-Danny

Sandbag Special

My Feedback: (5)

Also one thing Dan is that Danny Kane does not have to abide by all those rules because it is at a CD's discretion & he is not racing in the SEMPRA district, my father and I are only addressing people in SEMPRA to keep our great thing going. If it isn't broke, dont fix it.

Matt

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

So what you guys need to do is, simple:

1.) Write a "local" rules proposal, defining the 16,5K rule and how it is to be enforced (pinching the fuel line, using just the needle valve, what ever). You need to get that in to whomever deals with that out here. And you need to find out what kind of voting procedure SEMPRA uses. Is it a membership vote? or is it like the NMPRA where we have a panel of selected officials that vote for us? If it's a selected panel... I suggest you get a petition going, bring it up to Marcus's race and start getting guys to sign it.

2.) Weighing planes, checking baffles.. all that is basically covered in the rules as they are written. Someone with some 424 TT40 knowledge needs to spearhead that operation and become the enforcer. If we need to start tearing crap down, then so be it...

3.) I think it would be wise to have a stock of 9 x 6 props on hand. In the event someone is turning 16,8K... maybe a change in propellers would take care of that. We all know that there is some RPM differences in props.

Does that cover it?

Randy Bridge

kane

First and foremost, I don't think there was any personal attacks going on here, please let's not head in that direction.

Matt, I don't think anyone is disagreeing that a discussion needs to be started. Please look at all sides of the coin. Florida, as far as I know is the ONLY district trying to enforce the 16,500 rule. Do you guys have the secret to success? Perhaps, I don't know. Do the other parts of the country have the secret to success? Perhaps I don't know. The point here is it doesn't matter. You guys can do what you like if you feel that the current AMA rules have failed you in some way. Secondly, if you feel so strongly that the rules are way out of wack you can submit a rule proposal to the AMA to get the rules changed. That's it, all I am trying to do is inform you of what the procedures are.

Danny, I am glad to see new blood in the hobby. Please explain what you spent $700 on so that you could keep up with the "MODDED" airplanes? Are you the same Danny that Matt mentioned? Lastly, if you disagree on how to handle cheating, please offer some suggestions on how you would handle cheating.

Randy, thanks for the summary, you are right on target.

Dan

DHG

My Feedback: (7)

Maybe 16,500 needs to become 17,100 or something. I know I have 3 TT Pro .40s, they are all box-stock, and each of them turns an APC 9 x 6 at 17,000 even. That's with the muffler as supplied (JB Welded together), no changes to the head gasket, bearings, or anything.

The rpm limit can't be your only engine rule; all it can do is provide a quick-and-dirty indication that perhaps the engine isn't stock. In fact, some cheater engines actually turn less rpm on the ground because they've got higher timing. There's no substitute for inspections.

Just my .02 ... where should I send my SEMPRA dues?

Duane Gall
RCPRO

garys

I'd highly recommend supplied props. If a max RPM figure is used, somebody that is willing to cheat by modifying their engine would also be likely to heat and twist more pitch into their props to keep from exceeding the max RPM on the ground. This ability is reduced if you supply the props. In Phoenix, Jim Allen would often dye one or both tips of the supplied props for APRA so that it was easy to tell if somebody was trying to get by with their own prop. He'd change the dye colors or amount of each tip dyed for each race so that people didn't have the opportunity to take one home and adjust the pitch.

GS

And yes, I'm not in SEMPRA, but I'd like to see SEMPRA's racing get back to what it used to be....

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

That's what I was getting at with having a stock of props on hand. But to actually supply the props is even a better idea.

And Duane is right. RPM isn't the tell all story. Maybe a rule (for SEMPRA only) that let's the CD do protest tear downs without the fee having to be put up??

RB

BernieV

Wasn’t the original intent of the 16,500 RPM rule to limit the field of potential engines and prevent constant changes of engines to the latest thing that turns a few hundred more RPM?

That problem went away with the adoption of the engine list that only includes the TT Pro .40. Most of the 424 racing groups are using the TT Pro .40 and are generally happy with it. I think we should keep working toward rule consistency across the country.

It is well known that many completely stock TT Pro .40s can turn over 16,500 on the ground with a stock APC 9 x 6. I don’t see this as a problem as long as competitors are following the rules. It doesn’t make sense to me to have these 100% rules compliant engines declared illegal.

What is a reasonable way for CDs to determine if the engine is stock? Perhaps a higher RPM limit as an indicator as Duane suggested.

The 428 event requires a stock engine as well with more variables. How do CDs determine if these are stock?

luv to race

My Feedback: (1)

The way you ensure that engines are still stock, excellent question.. You have to protest the person in question (per the rules), pony up some cash ($25.00 ?? I think)..at which time the CD must take action and have the engine tore down and inspected. I don believe it's okay to tear down the engine at the end of the contest, as to not disrupt the flow of the contest. Hopefully the person tearing down the engine is NOT the same person who built it, which can happen.

Randy Bridge