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Old 05-03-2015, 03:31 PM
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I checked that Wolf site out, that's a mighty nice service to have around.
Old 05-05-2015, 03:26 AM
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Default Saito FA-80T

I don't post in this forum much, but was recommended to me today as I have a new crown jewel. Yesterday I picked up my first Saito twin the FA-80T. I am no stranger to Saito engines, I have owned many of them since 1991. Many have been sold but my current Saito line up is, FA-45 MKII, FA-45S, FA-50, FA-56, FA-65, FA-80, FA-91S and now the FA-80T MKII. As you can see I prefer the 'classic' series of Saito engines.

I have searched and found just a few threads regarding this engine. I have an instruction manual and the twin carb supplements sheets. The engine unfortunately came to me with no box,accessories, or tools. I am very interested in hearing what any other 80T owners have to say about their engine. I do plan on running this engine on the test stand this weekend and eventually putting it into an airplane. That is where I need some real experience. The Saito instruction manual says it could fly a 4kg(8lb) airplane. I have a SIG Hog Bipe in the closet I would love to put this in but I am afraid it might be a bit too much for the engine. The bipe is supposed to come out to 7.5lbs. I really don't want to go the usual Cub route, although I do have a 1/6 scale Hazel SIG clipped wing in the closet too, but I think this would be too big for that airplane.

Let me hear what your thoughts are on plugs, props, and airframes for this beauty
.
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Last edited by dmrcflyr2; 05-05-2015 at 03:48 AM.
Old 05-05-2015, 03:37 AM
  #29203  
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It's a very nice engine, thanks for sharing, my guess is that it should turn an APC 13x6 at about 9,500. If it follows the pattern of the 1.00 it should be nearly as powerful as the .80 single.
Old 05-05-2015, 03:55 AM
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Maybe I should run the 14x6 first to see what readings I get. The manual states 10,000 RPM is absolute max. I would be happy with the power output of the 80 single, although the last Hog Bipe I had was powered with a 91S. Thank you for the response.
Old 05-05-2015, 04:01 AM
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I searched for a test by Peter Chinn or Clarence Lee, I found one of the .90 version by Mr. Chinn. He does a little comparing to .80 construction but that's about it. I have the 1.00 version. I'm anxious to se your running results.
PS, I made velocity stacks for mine, I love to tinker.

http://sceptreflight.net/Model%20Eng...20Mk%20II.html
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Last edited by Hobbsy; 05-05-2015 at 04:10 AM.
Old 05-05-2015, 04:16 AM
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I think the biggest differences between the 80T and 90T are the heads and power output. The 80T still has the 2 piece heads. In a way I am glad for that now as I was wanting to assess approximately how much run time the engine had and it was very easy to pull the top of the head off and inspect the valves. I did that last night. I also reset the valve lash as it was off quite a bit. This engine is definitely no virgin. I would estimate about 1 gallon through it by the looks of the valves. Both cylinders seemed to run about the same based on comparisons to each other.

That brings me to another question. The instructions did not state how to connect the breathers. There is a nipple near the front bearing and one for the compressor vane pump. Do these get connected together?

Last edited by dmrcflyr2; 05-05-2015 at 04:18 AM.
Old 05-05-2015, 04:23 AM
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I don't think they get connected together, Mr. Chinn mentions that pump in his .90 test, I'll have to go back and read the whole thing. I have a .45 from the same era as your engine. It is ringless.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:41 AM
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That is the one! I had one of those 45 MKI at one time too, but I chose to sell it. Yeah, I am at work and haven't had a chance to read the article fully. he might not mention how they are connected. How do you connect yours?

I just read that section. It sounds like the breather for the compressor is just left open to atmospheric pressure and the one in front just allows the contaminated air/oil to escape. So then another question, after proper shutdown, do I inject ARO into the one in the front to coat the front bearing? Do I put it in both and rotate the prop around to disperse?

Last edited by dmrcflyr2; 05-05-2015 at 07:01 AM.
Old 05-05-2015, 12:09 PM
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If it will go in the back that is best place, then it can go through bearings and catch the cams on the way out the front. It will go out through the front seals as if they weren't there. Mine has no pump, I drilled and tapped the back plate for a vent for the sole purpose of injecting ARO. Other wise I keep it plugged for running.
Old 05-06-2015, 05:31 AM
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I am looking for a 60t or 90t Saito
thanks
Old 05-06-2015, 06:52 AM
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I have my Alpha 60 almost ready to fly again, switched to a Saito .80 with CDI by C&H Ignition. It balances perfectly with a 2000 MA Ultra Hobbico battery at back of the radio compartment. I hope to squeeze an 1,100 MA JR into the fuel tank compartment, (for the ignition) and still balance OK..
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Old 05-06-2015, 03:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
I have my Alpha 60 almost ready to fly again, switched to a Saito .80 with CDI by C&H Ignition. It balances perfectly with a 2000 MA Ultra Hobbico battery at back of the radio compartment. I hope to squeeze an 1,100 MA JR into the fuel tank compartment, (for the ignition) and still balance OK..
A 650Ma 4.8pack for a single cylinder module will give you over 45 minutes of flight. I used 650s on both the Rx & ignition, alternating quick charges on each between flights. In a small airframe it's easier to tuck in small packs.
Old 05-07-2015, 03:50 AM
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Thanks a lot Dan, that's good to know, I had a 1500 ma older JR, I charged it twice yesterday the most it would do is about 240 ma. I fried a Hobbico 2000 ma nimh. Where the red lead crossed over the black leads connection point it shorted out and was nearly on fire when I smelled it. I did a little looking yesterday and finding them under 2000 ma ain't easy. I carry an ACE Super Smart Charger to the field, it would recharge a 650 in just a few minutes. I think I have an 1100 somewhere.
Old 05-07-2015, 04:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Thanks a lot Dan, that's good to know, I had a 1500 ma older JR, I charged it twice yesterday the most it would do is about 240 ma. I fried a Hobbico 2000 ma nimh. Where the red lead crossed over the black leads connection point it shorted out and was nearly on fire when I smelled it. I did a little looking yesterday and finding them under 2000 ma ain't easy. I carry an ACE Super Smart Charger to the field, it would recharge a 650 in just a few minutes. I think I have an 1100 somewhere.
Oops sorry, it was a 750ma 4.8v NiMH BATTERY PACK, not 650.

They carry those packs at the local gas station/convenience store/pizza parlor/hobby shop that caters to R/C cars. They use the small packs for the Rx in the small scale nitro cars.

A small pack like that won't change the CG much if you place it near the wing spar. I haven't had any RF problems even though I place my IG battery fairly close to the Rx.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 05-07-2015 at 04:57 AM.
Old 05-07-2015, 05:08 AM
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A little input on IG battery pack in flight service.

When the power of an IG battery pack starts getting low, it won't cause an immediate dead stick. You will experience some miss-fire as the voltage drops. You wil still have several minutes of flight time left before the engine flames out completely. If you experience continued miss-fire in flight, set up for a landing & get the bird on the ground ASAP, but immediate landing is not urgent. You can do a few go-arounds if necessary.

At 4.8v, the current drain of a C&H single cylinder module is about 800ma @ 10k RPM. Operating @ lower RPM/part throttle will extend the battery life.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 05-08-2015 at 11:13 AM.
Old 05-08-2015, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150
My high compression FA-180 loves 30%.

Turns almost 9000 with the 18X8 Dynathrust when she's swilling 30% nitro!
They do sound sweet on 30%, or higher. I pretty much stick to 15% as it stills seems the hobby shop standard fuel. However, all of my fuel is very old.
Old 05-08-2015, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by blw
They do sound sweet on 30%, or higher. I pretty much stick to 15% as it stills seems the hobby shop standard fuel. However, all of my fuel is very old.
I missed the spring fuel run at the local club this year, but on the next one, I'm getting 6 gallons of methanol for $5 a gallon, a gallon of synthetic lube for $32 and 2 gallons of nitro methane for $40 a gallon. If mixed in those quantities, it would yield 9 gallons of 22% nitro with 11% lube for $15.78 a gallon. Methanol, 0% nitro, 10% lube would cost $8.33 a gallon.

I want to experiment with 10% lube mixes from 0% nitro on up to and beyond 30%. I'm convinced (as are others) that 10% is more than ample lube when CDI is employed. I'll use my FA-91S as the guinea pig as it will be the least expensive to repair or replace if failure ensues.
Old 05-09-2015, 05:11 AM
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Anybody need a good trotline wight? l got a Super Tiger 4500. 2.75Ci, 4500cc, 4.75lbs. Grate for a gaint scale ? (lf you can afford to start it) The down side is that it burns 40 Oz of fuel in 8 Mins, with a 20X10 prop in a 33% Lazer, Less than that in a Cub type plane The up side is that you can run 0-5% Nitro. l have the stock and a pitts mufflers. Like to do some tradding on it. There is a lgnition kit someone is saling for it. Some like the Super Tiger engines. If you do, make me a offer????
Old 05-09-2015, 07:16 AM
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The big SuperTiger engine guys would bring 2 jugs of fuel every time they came to the field.
Old 05-09-2015, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by SrTelemaster150
I missed the spring fuel run at the local club this year, but on the next one, I'm getting 6 gallons of methanol for $5 a gallon, a gallon of synthetic lube for $32 and 2 gallons of nitro methane for $40 a gallon. If mixed in those quantities, it would yield 9 gallons of 22% nitro with 11% lube for $15.78 a gallon. Methanol, 0% nitro, 10% lube would cost $8.33 a gallon.

I want to experiment with 10% lube mixes from 0% nitro on up to and beyond 30%. I'm convinced (as are others) that 10% is more than ample lube when CDI is employed. I'll use my FA-91S as the guinea pig as it will be the least expensive to repair or replace if failure ensues.

Hi SrTele

I just started my FA-1215a glow CDI Ch-Ignitions for the first time this afternoon. The fuel was 17% Aerosave and 15% nitro. The prop was 15x6 APC. Timing set at 30,5 degrees BTDC at this time.
Max rpm w/ glow: 9350
Max rpm w/CDI 9400 (bear in mind this is at 30,5 degrees I may try later a more agressive timing like 34-35 degrees BTDC )

The 15x6 is a bit too small for the FA-125a. I think a better comparison of CDI and glow would be loading the engine a bit more by using a 15x8 or 16x6 prop.

reliable idle w/ glow: 2100-2300rpm prolonged 2 min+ idle and good transition from idle to max (The rpm keeps fluctuating no matter how you tune the LS: If I lean it even a tad, then the engine may stop when I slam the throttle from idle) (The engine does idle lower at 1700-1900 but not reliably. So it idles for a while but when the glow plug gets cool the engine quits.)

reliable idle w/ CDI: 1600rpm or less 2min+ idle and good transition from idle to max.

With CDI I had to lean the HS needle 1/2 turn from where the HS needle was at peak rpm with glow plug to reach the peak rpm with CDI

Some considerations:
I did not have time to tune the LS to optimimum today. However, The engine idles reliably at less than 1400 rpm but I don't yet know if I can have that low idle with reliable transition from idle to max if throttle is accelerated (slammed) quickly. This is yet to be tested. I will test the engine with 10% Aerosave and 5% nitro as that is my regular fuel that I use with my Laser twins (300v and 240V)

SrTele, what do you think about CDI and 0% nitro or very low nitro, say 5%? Will there be a problem with achieving a good transition? I already have plenty of power and I'm temped with the idea of running all my engines with the same fuel, i.e. 10% Aerosave and 5% nitro.

My goal is to get a reliable low idle at 1500rpm with reliable transition. So far I know it already that if I keep the nitro at 15% this can be achived for sure. I would not like to mix many types of fuel, however..

All in all, I'm very happy with the results so far! SrTele, you have been very helpfull with your great hints on CDI conversions! I want to extend my gratitude for your great help so far!


Artto
Old 05-09-2015, 01:55 PM
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Artto, I'll let Dan address this but say that I have run Saitos on 5% fuel with 20% castor, from Fox mfg. I no longer use castor in my fourstrokes. I only wanted to say that Saitos run very well on 5% fuel.
Old 05-09-2015, 05:16 PM
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A discussion at an association meeting came up with the following. It was felt that "all this garbage about 20% oil" in Saitos was just that EXCEPT that when the discussion went further it was found that the guys using 15% oil (of what ever persuasion) were also running "older" engines with steel liners. Modern Saitos have AAC liners hence the need for more oil and in fact some of the "younger" operators were complaining about lost compression (on high time engines) and guess what, the bores had be worn out (that is oversize) and to go with that some were using as low as 10% oil because a resident "expert" said so. I always follow the manufacturers recommendations until I have learnt the engine, am looking for increased performance and I have a spare engine to replace the one I am playing with cause inevitably I over stress it.
Old 05-10-2015, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by FNQFLYER
A discussion at an association meeting came up with the following. It was felt that "all this garbage about 20% oil" in Saitos was just that EXCEPT that when the discussion went further it was found that the guys using 15% oil (of what ever persuasion) were also running "older" engines with steel liners. Modern Saitos have AAC liners hence the need for more oil and in fact some of the "younger" operators were complaining about lost compression (on high time engines) and guess what, the bores had be worn out (that is oversize) and to go with that some were using as low as 10% oil because a resident "expert" said so. I always follow the manufacturers recommendations until I have learnt the engine, am looking for increased performance and I have a spare engine to replace the one I am playing with cause inevitably I over stress it.
Hi Fnqflyer

I'm not an expert on this matter.

However, my Laser 300v and 240v both have aluminum cylinders (nikasil). The piston features one compression ring and one oil ring. The manufacturer (Laser Engines) say 10% good quality oil is fine. When I was in correspondence with 8Laser engines recently I was told they are actually teasing the engines with 4% oil currently for testing purposes. This 4% oil they do not yet recommend to customers, though.

My understanding is the difference with modern Saitos and Laser engines is that while Lasers have a bushed connection rod Saito glow engines have an alumium connection rod without bronze bushing. Saitos also have just one ring (compression ring). Further, due to different combustion chamber design (and maybe diffrerent valve overlapping) Lasers burn less fuel than Saitos and produce a tad less power for the same displacement (not necessarily for the same weight) This lower fuel consumption means there is also less oil to lubricate the engine with Lasers yet they can cope with 10% good quality oil as said by the manufacturer.

edit: I just checked Evolution radials' manual: 6-9% oil in glow fuel is recommended. I wonder what kind of cylinders do they have? If I remember it correctly from some other threads / discussions the connecting rod is of non-bushed type.
-Artto

Last edited by AeroFinn; 05-10-2015 at 01:19 AM.
Old 05-10-2015, 03:25 AM
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I've burned over 50 gallons of 16% lube Cool Power (most of it @ WOT) in my FA-150 W/CDI which burns about 20% less fuel than GI. I even had a few lean runs due to differing conditions after the cowl was installed on my PT-19. Of course lean runs W/CDI aren't as destructive as W/GI.

The engine was left in a barn for 14 years thus needing some internal clean-up.

Here is the cylinder after a slight scuff W/400 wet-or-dry.



There are no scratches that can be felt with a fingernail and the piston still measures to spec on the thrust (skirt) surfaces.

Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 05-10-2015 at 03:29 AM.
Old 05-10-2015, 03:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Hobbsy
Artto, I'll let Dan address this but say that I have run Saitos on 5% fuel with 20% castor, from Fox mfg. I no longer use castor in my fourstrokes. I only wanted to say that Saitos run very well on 5% fuel.
Thanks Dave.

I once tested my FA-125a on a 5% nitro fuel. In order to have good transition I had to open the LS more tnah with 15% nitro. This led to unreliable idle as the engine was idleing at a too rich of a mixture.

Now this was when I had run only 2 gallons or so through the engine. I remember that after 3+ gallons the engine started to behaviour better in general so maybe now there won't be any issues with 5% nitro. I will have to test it. If I can have about 1500rpm reliable idle and good transition (with CDI and 5% nitro), then, I will be more than happy with how a FA-125a behaves. I think this is a realistic target as I already know from experience than with 15% nitro this is acheived without any issues.

-Artto

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