Dave, I thank you and Jetcat for the quick responses to sort out the issue but I have to say I don't get why you and Jetcat thought trying to sell an inferior product would not come back and bite you!

If only Jetcat had thought about what they are doing and got it right first time, then instead of all this c**p being spread over this thread, we would have been saying what a superb turbine the P180rx is because, based on the tests Mark did today, all my expectations will have been met

I hope you and Jetcat have learnt your lesson.

Dave... do you by any chance have a PDF copy of the P180RX manual in English? I just received my engine and it is in German. Can't find a download for it anywhere... gggrrrr!!

Thanks!

Dave,

This wasn't all about being obsessed with throttle response, it was about the disappointment of dropping thousands on 5 of these and finding out they performed worse than the model they were replacing. Whilst I thank you for helping sort the issue despite not purchasing them from you I think it's a bit off to make it sound like we were the ones in the wrong.
If you still feel the same then please try and think of another product you have sold where the replacement or new version performed worse than the prior model and you thought it acceptable.

Geoff, there is nothing new here. Lets think back a few years.. Early P120's had compressor blades fall off (had one or two yourself didn't you?) and also combustion chambers fail as they were made of stainless. Then came the P160, that thing used to blow up as often as they ran so then they de-rated it and call it a Titan, great fix... Then we see the turbo prop, the early ones used to self district regularly and I even watched one plane land with the prop sticking out the wing with the prop shaft still attached. There was also big issues with early P200 engines but I can't remember the full details. These are just a handful I call recall sitting here and I'm sure you are aware of them all so lets face it you knew what you were buying so stop moaning and 8itching at my mate Dave like an old woman. As I see it your choices are either carry on being Jetcats Guinea pig or buy Merlin or AMT fit and forget engines.

Jason

Hi Ginge,

Yes you are right. There were problems with early P120's etc but what's different about this issue is that its nothing mechanical, its purely down to the ECU programming. They have shown this because all it took was a weeks worth of effort and problem was solved so why didn't they do it in the first place[>:]

Having said all the above I just hope there aren't any mechanical issues forthcoming(shouldn't be as my 180 already has 3.5 hours on it).

Geoff.

Sure as long as you don't mind playing catch up and waiting 5 yrs for kero start and before was 5 yrs waiting for electric start!
Oh, and if you only needed one motor size as well.
Then you could buy a merlin and retain 50 cents on the dollar when you sell.
Scott

I just fired up the ECU on my new 180RX and it is V10.1Q. I've seen the discussion on V10.1 as the one that fixes the lag issue (whew... relief I have that!), but anyone know what the "Q" is about?

I take it from not getting any responses on the problem with me getting a German manual that nobody has a PDF of the English one?

My 180 is going into a large Skymaster Hawk... should be awesome!

Dave,

That is the most ridiculous post I've ever seen from you! Come on your a JC dealer!

Ok guys time to take a chill pill. If this 'problem' was anybody's it was JetCat's! You would all do well to remember how much support you receive from Dave even when you have not purchased from him. He went into bat on your behalf and may well not do so next time.

My take on this (for what it's worth). JetCat mapped the ECU for all climates and altitudes to keep it simple. Your new faster accel times will no doubt surge the engine in Johannesburg on a summer's day. Sure an ECU could be made that adjusts for conditions on the day but you would not be able to afford it! If you set the 120/160SX engines to 'fast' they are on the point of surging in this country in summer - just listen to the popping and banging. One reason why mine are all set to normal! In the end it's just physics. Instant accel times do not happen in jet engines.

Well at least it might be useful to clear the snow up the field if nothing else

Well Geoffrey if we are talking about the wonderful Jetcat ECU's maybe you should tell us about when you and Colin Gardner turned up at FIJR with P120 powered Hotspots with V2 ECU's?........[X(]

J

Yeah I turned up and flew..regarding Colin...less said the better.

Now, Now, you boys, play nicely

So in the past were ECU's specific to UK, USA, AUS, Dubai! I never heard of anyone having a similar "mapping problem" with a ecu until now.

No that's the whole point. ECU mapping is a compromise to cope with widely varying atmospheric conditions! Hence a compromise with acceleration times.

It seems to me with turbine manufactuers trying to extract more and more thrust from existing size turbines then surge problems at critical altitudes and temperates can be a real problem.The fix that JetCat have done to the 180RX ECUmapping might be fine hear in the UK at sea level and our moderate climate but be unuseable in Saudi, Denver Colorado,or parts of high altitude South Africa.

I wonder if it is possible to have different ECU mappings user adjustable depending on your location. Not just fast throttle responce but different mappings you could select yourself.

Maybe this will be standard in the future and must be technically possible.

Phil.

Phil,

This was what Geoff and I asked. Instead of a one size fits all mapping it must be entirely feasible to 'select' a region on the GSU and have a different set of parameters used. Why should I at sea level in the UK be hamstrung because the engine needs to run in the middle of the Dubai desert. Likewise, why should the desert guys have turbines flaming out all the time because of UK sea level parameters.

As an ex programmer I cannot see why it is tricky.......

Rgds,
Mark

That's indeed a problem with these "small size" upgraded engines. I made my GR180 with 19kg/42lb thrust in same size P80 cannister and increadable, superfast (almost scarry) throttle responce at sealevel, holland. Great for escape's should shortfinal be too short.... Next thing I'm in Dayton at the JWM, very hot and a bit high elevation at 1000'ft. All fast responce was gone, had to regulate acceleration from just 2 sec's back to 7 sec's to prevent surge/stall. Best way to cope this is a superfast electronic feedback system in ecu which regulates mapping instead of a fixed one. Of cource this commes with a price, I think AMT has this system. I saw Marijn's F16 with AMT pegagus which had much slower acceleration than normal which seem to regulate itself. Jetcat seem to have a fixed mapping for all engines. I don't think manual adjustable mappings are the solution, a self regulated mapping is. But that's up to the engine manufacturers I guess.....

It would be very easy for the owner to select a country/region on the GSU it then would select the parameters for that region. same way you can select kero or gas start.

A extra benefit of this is if you happened to go to a flyin/event in another country you could re select to suit

I only want super reliability in my engines.  Sure fast accel is great to have, but not at the cost of reliability.  I dont mind tweaking my ECU if that option is available so I have a super reliable, and a fast throttling engine in our dry hot indian weather.  Does a technology exist that will ensure the minimum guaranteed thrust no matter what altitude and temperature the engine is being operated at?    Now this would be cool.  All my engines produce less in the temps I operate in.

My point was whether you bought the turbine for faster acceleration or more power...if you were offered more power at slower acceleration, would you still buy it? Its just that I have never understood this obsession with fast throttling, that is all.
I guess JC should have published figures and then purchasers would have known. It will be interesting to see the long term affect on the turbine. I want reliability, 1st and always, by far the most important thing.

I just have a severe hate for the internet and what it has done to the hobby...all bad for so so many different reasons. The business world is a poorer place, in my mind from the overall affect.
There was a time when manufacturers had a chance to be asked first and act, not any more. Even though JC acted fast, it was not quick enough it seems. Yes maybe they should have done more research and testing in the field, but I'm sure they have learnt a lesson for the future.
Other posts have run and run with talk that achieves little. Lets hope this one is behind us.

The letter in a JetCat ECU is the revision letter. 10.1 the main ECU processor version. Geoff and Mark would need to give you the letter than comes up during boot up.

Dw

Hi Dave,

I agree this thread has run it course but I have a few comments. I bought the turbine purely for more power but my expectations were high as I have two P160sx's that both run/throttle superbly.
I was genuiney shocked when I ran the P180 because I expected it to be the equal of my P160sx's. Or to put it another way they are a victim of their own success as we all expect the products to run perfectly. If I had been told up front that the throttling is pegged back, would I have brought it? Probably as I just needed more power for the Hunter but my expectations would have been different. Its all about communication.

Again for about the third time I appreciate JC and yourself sorting the issue out quickly but nowhere did I say it wasn't sorted fast enough. Yes, I was frustrated because I wanted to fly this great new turbine but I would rather they get it right and I am annoyed I coudn't get out this weekend to try it because based on Marks ground tests it is going to be great.

You mention the long term effect on the turbine, are you saying that there may be an issue? Can you clarify please?

Regarding the internet - Its simple really adapt or die. It is here to stay, some traders, both within the model trade and outside it, have learnt to use it as a fantastic marketing tool. Personally I love it as it enables the flow of information to be very rapid and we can all make better informed choices.

Geoff.

Mark, I guess that mapping according to regions would not be appropriate.
In my country, for instance, you can go from desert to snow in a few hours.
My suggestion would be to have different ECU mappings according to "density altitude" ranges.

jack

Mr Wilshere, I think that the problem is not the internet.
It is just the way the human nature works when your "nose" is not within reach of a well deserved "punch".
Or worse yet, when your real name or face is hidden.


Jack

Geoff? Mark?

Would be grateful if you could let me know the letter after the 10.1 on your fixed ECU's.

Thanks!