The manual recommends 6% elevator mix for KE, which to me seems that if you have up trim you have it built in already, therefore good KE and, hence down needed for inverted, this may be a thrust line issue rather than an incidence problem IMO.

Mike

I don't remember saying I have an incedence problem other then the twist at the wing tips which I twisted back.

Quist

Relax, you did not say you had an incidence problem, all I was trying to point out is, that if you are confident you have the right C of G the need for up elevator trim can be either the thrust line or an incidence problem.

Mike

Dave,

Yes is the short answer, every plane I have needs negative push to hold level while inverted, including my C-ARF 2M pattern plane. interestingly enough someone told me this was wrong, they said a good plane trimmed out properly will go inverted without any push. Quite frankly I never knew if that was right or wrong, seemed a fair enough argument to make but nothing I've flown will do that.

While at SEFF this year I had the chance to talk to QuiQue Somenzini, I asked him if this was true and he said absolutely not, He said sure, you can likely trim a plane out so that it flies the same right-side up as well as inverted but you'll end up with a poor flying (and tracking) plane. he said every plane needs a little push when inverted to hold its line and you should spend the time trimming the plane to track properly...

Jack

Mike,

I've been annoyed by this lately as well, they NEVER did this in the past, the wires always came out the same on every pack, one out each side. Lately I've gotten some packs with both out the side opposite the balance tap and other packs with the wires coming out opposite sides. I've decided every time I order I specify in the notes section which I prefer (I actually prefer the tap on one side and the lead wires together on the other side). I don't know if Flightpower has a second assembly plant or may be changing over to the other way and we're seeing the results of the change over but this back-and-forth is annoying (especially given their quality, seems odd that they would be inconsistent)...

Jack

Hi Jack, Funny after speaking with my old uncle who flew pattern in the 70's he likes his models to fly down in straight and level (holding up elevator in normal flight) and then when inverted they fly without input..Everyones different in this respect, i suppose without wing incidence adjusters Mr Sebart can't please everyone so he went with what he normally flies....but if its good enough for Quique i will need to improve my finger control!!!
I had another two flights today (thats 3 and 4 on the ship) the wing tip balance has made vertical manouveres better but i still get a slight pull in uplines to the left...(requires a smidge of right rudder)
only 2500mah pulled from both EVOLITE 4270 V2 packs in 8.5 minutes....
Does anyone else get a resonating buzz when they apply rudder in knife edge flight?
brgds
Dave
p.s A smidge is a very small quantity (of anything) in Scotland!!!!

Mike, Jack, I have many flightpower packs and all have the positive lead and balance taps exiting one side and the negative the other. I have never liked this but, at least it was consistent. Oh, I just checked my two newest packs. all leads exit the same side on these new packs, hmm.

I got five flights on my Angel yesterday, mine also pulls a little to the left on uplines and requires a smidge of push inverted. Love the plane!

Dave.

Hi Dave . . We have "smidges" here in Oz too

No "buzz" in KE on mine. Check that you don't have something loose (cowl, trim, covering, canopy, etc.) that may be effected by airflow in the KE position.

The lateral balance actually has minimal effect in up and down lines. This is surface trim (incidences, etc.) and thrust angles. For lateral balance, first check it on the ground, then pull tight inside and outside loops (in the air ). Check for a dropping of a wing, check which wing it is and if it's alway the same wing . . add a little tip weight to the opposite wing (or remove it if you had added too much on the ground). PS. this has to be done on calm conditions or at least fly the loops directly into the wind (calm is always better for this stuff).

Mine was pretty good, and didn't need any tip weight. The thrust angle could do with a slight change, but at the moment I have just mixed it out.

Cheers, JB

Jeff, could you tell me how you check lateral balance on the ground? Do you suspend the plane buy the prop shaft and tail wheel?

Thanks Dave

My RC instructor always taught me to trim the rudder when pulling straight up away from you, in essence you would remove any pull to one side during proper rudder trim. The idea being when going straight up, the only effect gravity has on the plane is pulling directly down, not affecting the trim, making it "true". So I have to ask, if you notice pull in any direction going upline, isn't this an indication the rudder isn't trimmed properly? I can't see how the pull to the left wouldn't be seen flying straight and level as well...

Jack

Jack, the pull to the left is very slight. And no, I do not notice it in straight level flight. I use right rudder to correct this slight pull to the left. Right rudder also keeps large loops on track. I will try more right rudder trim today.

Dave.

Yes . . usually from the prop shaft where it exits the nose. This should be pretty close to center. Tape the rudder in the exact neutral position, and have a helper lift it by pinching the trailing edge of the rudder on or just above the longitudinal? CG. Then add weight to the light wing tip until it balances.

I have found this method to be very close, with possibly only minor adjustment after the "inside/outside loop" test.

Cheers, JB

PS. The rudder trim I test by flying away from you directly into the wind (no wind is always better) in a 45 degree upline. Trim the rudder until it flies up straight, then roll to inverted half way up and see what it does. If it veers to the left or right, adjust the rudder trim again until it flies straight while inverted in the 45deg upline, then recheck the upright. If you end up with a compromise where it will veer slightly one way upright and the other way inverted (which is actually still the same way), the model is llikely to need a thrust line adjustment.

Jack

I suppose its a fouble of whoever assembles the pack, thanks for the tip on ordering I will do that in future.

Mike

thinking of using a scorpion 4020-12 outrunner on 5S (5250 mah F3A pack).
http://www.flyelectric.com/Scorpion4020-12.html

would this motor be sufficient?

mikedsilva, I am using a scorpion 4025-12 in my angel. I am running it on TPX 5000 6s v2 packs and a apc 16-12 prop. This gives me all the power I want. I did a couple flights yesterday with my wattmeter on board the angel, peak amps of 65 and peak watts 1400. If I had a 5s pack I would run a test for you.

Dave.

oops, er disregard my last post. Mines a 4025-12. Sorry!

Dave.

Should work. I'm using a 570 Kva motor(Torque 4014-T570) on the same packs with a 15X8 prop.

61 flights to date<g>

I am using a Hacker A50 12S with a 15-8 prop and it works very well on 5S packs. I think it is 570kv also.

A 5S pack is nominally about 19volts so to get 1400watts it would need to be proped to pull about 70amps, it would be working hard, but would work, you may need to take into account the extra weight of the 5250 mah pack as well, may be a bit maginal in the vertical, I have an AXI 4130/16 in mine on 6S on 4350 mah and its as perfect as I can get on a 16x10.

Mike

I use a 17" APC prop cut down to 16" - stops the very thin/flexible prop tips of the 16" APC prop 'buzzing' in certain manoeuvres.

Rgds,
Mark

Hi
I was out with my Angel today and on the second flight I smacked a particularly strudy thistle on landing which knock one of the lift thingies fairings off one the undercarriage legs. I was having such a good time that i decided to fly again accepting that i would probably need a click or so of aileron to compensate. Plane took off and needed zero aileron trim. So my question is do these things actually do anything or are they purely asthetic?

David I also get a resonating buzz in Knife edge.

Mike

IMO it's a gimick. Don't get me wrong, any surface generates lift but I think the amount is negligable...

Jack

Any opinions on how an E-flite 60 would work on the Angel? I've ordered the airplane and am considering various power options. I'm new to electric, so I need all the help I can get, but it looks to me as if the E-flite would be a good match. What do you guy's think? RS

Hmmm, it seemed like a decent choice until I ran the numbers in MotoCalc, the same setup as me (Hacker A50 12L, FlightPower 6S 5000, Jeti Spin 75, APC 18 x 10 Prop) drops from 199 ounces of thrust to 130 doing nothing but changing the motor. Seems the RPM/V combined with the armature resistance isn't a good choice. I tried different props but I can't get better than 130 ounces of thrust from that setup...

Jack

Jack,
Thanks for taking the time to run the numbers on it for me. Sounds like the E-flite might not be such a good choice after all, when compared to your A50-12L. I'm just curious about how it (the E-flite) would measure up to the recommended A-50-16S? Thanks for your help....RS