TF FW190 GIANT ARF
#3726
Senior Member
#3728
Senior Member
Even with shipping, they're usually cheaper than HH on Saito multi-cylinder engines.
They still carry many of the large multi-cylinder glow engines that HH has discontinued.
#3732
Senior Member
#3733
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Chad... thanks... I'm ready... I've got the wing peeled and all the fixes are underway.. I'll be glassing next week. I'll have the first "scratch" coat on by next Friday latest... Your stuff goes on top of last primer layer, correct?
#3734
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm just speculating. Since they had so many problems W/the FG-84 due to poor fuel distribution. Now they are selling it at discounted prices? Looks like they want to deplete the stock & all they need to change to go to FA-180 stroke to go W/the 180 bore that exists now in the FG-84 is to increase the stroke by .9mm via a new crank & use FA-180 pistons. Add the Ray English induction modification & viola' FG-90 (FG-87 actually since the FA-180 is only 29.1cc)
#3735
Senior Member
I'm not in any position to say "it's going to happen", I'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me.
Since I doubt that Saito would do the Ray English upgrade to the existing FG-84 model, it makes sense that they would make minor changes to the geometry to come up W/a "new" engine that they could roll out W/the improved induction.
If the crank will clear the case W/another .45mm swing up & down, the shorter FA-180 piston will bring compression height right back to spec.
If clearance is an issue, they can use the .45mm taller FG-84 piston & enlarge the case deck & clearance spec by the same amount.
The 1st scenerio would be cheaper for Saito since all but the crank would come from existing parts W/possibly some minor clearance work on the case. It would also keep the same diameter for mounting clearances.
If they go W/the 2nd option, the OD of the engine will only increase by just under 1mm.
#3736
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Ladera Ranch, CA
Posts: 678
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not in any position to say "it's going to happen", I'm just saying that it wouldn't surprise me.
Since I doubt that Saito would do the Ray English upgrade to the existing FG-84 model, it makes sense that they would make minor changes to the geometry to come up W/a "new" engine that they could roll out W/the improved induction.
If the crank will clear the case W/another .45mm swing up & down, the shorter FA-180 piston will bring compression height right back to spec.
If clearance is an issue, they can use the .45mm taller FG-84 piston & enlarge the case deck & clearance spec by the same amount.
The 1st scenerio would be cheaper for Saito since all but the crank would come from existing parts W/possibly some minor clearance work on the case. It would also keep the same diameter for mounting clearances.
If they go W/the 2nd option, the OD of the engine will only increase by just under 1mm.
Since I doubt that Saito would do the Ray English upgrade to the existing FG-84 model, it makes sense that they would make minor changes to the geometry to come up W/a "new" engine that they could roll out W/the improved induction.
If the crank will clear the case W/another .45mm swing up & down, the shorter FA-180 piston will bring compression height right back to spec.
If clearance is an issue, they can use the .45mm taller FG-84 piston & enlarge the case deck & clearance spec by the same amount.
The 1st scenerio would be cheaper for Saito since all but the crank would come from existing parts W/possibly some minor clearance work on the case. It would also keep the same diameter for mounting clearances.
If they go W/the 2nd option, the OD of the engine will only increase by just under 1mm.
#3738
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: hagerstown, MD
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With them coming out with the 60 and 20 cc radials it wouldn't surprise me if they did something like what Telemaster said. Although if they are just selling off old stock before coming out with something new, I would think that just doing the Ray English intake mod to the existing design would be a whole lot less engineering. That being said I wouldn't count on anything new that you can get your hands on by June. I had no problems with my first FG84. Just take your time breaking it in and run a good quality oil and it works just fine. So much so that when Horizon dropped the price I pulled the trigger on #2 for the 190 that has been sitting on the shelf for a couple years now. I did notice an extra instruction sheet with this one for break in procedures that has you running it extra rich for the first two tanks before any tuning. They don't want you going over 3000rpm at 3/4 throttle till you have two tanks through it. I think the old instructions just said to keep it below 4k for the first tank or two.
#3739
Mine is running just fine without any modifications. Where do you get it from that you need this modification?
I really can't understand it.
Just put some oil in the crankcase via that nipple before startup. Remember, it is delivered totally dry. And remember to turn the H needle at least 4 rounds.
It is a fantastic engine as is. No mods needed.
To put oil into the crankcase via the breather nipple before first startup is a smart thing to do for alle the FG engines.
Remember; It is a fourstroke; The petrol is sucked straight into the piston chamber. It does not go via the crankcase.
So, all lubrication of the crankcase area is mostly by leftover oil seeping down there.
This will take a while. So at first startup it is completely dry.
Has nothing to do with any modifications whatsoever. It is just common sense.
I really can't understand it.
Just put some oil in the crankcase via that nipple before startup. Remember, it is delivered totally dry. And remember to turn the H needle at least 4 rounds.
It is a fantastic engine as is. No mods needed.
To put oil into the crankcase via the breather nipple before first startup is a smart thing to do for alle the FG engines.
Remember; It is a fourstroke; The petrol is sucked straight into the piston chamber. It does not go via the crankcase.
So, all lubrication of the crankcase area is mostly by leftover oil seeping down there.
This will take a while. So at first startup it is completely dry.
Has nothing to do with any modifications whatsoever. It is just common sense.
Last edited by kwik; 04-05-2015 at 01:20 AM.
#3742
Hi, Sparki! Very much the Photo of a problem a wing interests. You can publish the photo of problems and photo Reconstruction flew down? Very interesting information for problems of the analysis and future works on repair. Thanks!
Last edited by zadeda; 04-05-2015 at 06:44 AM.
#3743
Senior Member
Mine is running just fine without any modifications. Where do you get it from that you need this modification?
I really can't understand it.
Just put some oil in the crankcase via that nipple before startup. Remember, it is delivered totally dry. And remember to turn the H needle at least 4 rounds.
It is a fantastic engine as is. No mods needed.
To put oil into the crankcase via the breather nipple before first startup is a smart thing to do for alle the FG engines.
Remember; It is a fourstroke; The petrol is sucked straight into the piston chamber. It does not go via the crankcase.
So, all lubrication of the crankcase area is mostly by leftover oil seeping down there.
This will take a while. So at first startup it is completely dry.
Has nothing to do with any modifications whatsoever. It is just common sense.
I really can't understand it.
Just put some oil in the crankcase via that nipple before startup. Remember, it is delivered totally dry. And remember to turn the H needle at least 4 rounds.
It is a fantastic engine as is. No mods needed.
To put oil into the crankcase via the breather nipple before first startup is a smart thing to do for alle the FG engines.
Remember; It is a fourstroke; The petrol is sucked straight into the piston chamber. It does not go via the crankcase.
So, all lubrication of the crankcase area is mostly by leftover oil seeping down there.
This will take a while. So at first startup it is completely dry.
Has nothing to do with any modifications whatsoever. It is just common sense.
Aside from the need to lubricate the bottom end before putting it into service there are other significant design flaws. That being said, why does Saito ship the engines dry W/O a warning to lubrucate the bottom end?
As is, the cylinder temperatures run at significantly differing vaues aside from the numerous seizures of the main rod. The Ray English mod is such an improvement to fuel distribution that Saito has employed it on the FG-60. The engine will run with very consistent cylinder temperatures, significantly better power, transition a& improved fuel efficiency after the R. E. induction mod.
This all reminds me of the British motorcycles in the USA back in the '60s & '70s. Yes they could have been tuned & maintained for reliable performance, but the US "consumer market" being what is was/is, the possibility of ham fisted "mechanics" puting product into service with flaws that "could" lead to failure was/is unacceptable.
I'm sure that I could also tune an exiting FG-84 to run reliably, but I would opt for the Ray English mod to increase performance, fuel economy & reliability.
The curious thing is that the reduced price will allow the sum of the cost of the R.E. mod & the new price to be about equal to the previous price before the reduction.
Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 04-05-2015 at 06:56 AM.
#3744
Senior Member
With them coming out with the 60 and 20 cc radials it wouldn't surprise me if they did something like what Telemaster said. Although if they are just selling off old stock before coming out with something new, I would think that just doing the Ray English intake mod to the existing design would be a whole lot less engineering. That being said I wouldn't count on anything new that you can get your hands on by June. I had no problems with my first FG84. Just take your time breaking it in and run a good quality oil and it works just fine. So much so that when Horizon dropped the price I pulled the trigger on #2 for the 190 that has been sitting on the shelf for a couple years now. I did notice an extra instruction sheet with this one for break in procedures that has you running it extra rich for the first two tanks before any tuning. They don't want you going over 3000rpm at 3/4 throttle till you have two tanks through it. I think the old instructions just said to keep it below 4k for the first tank or two.
Give me a crank with the FA-180 stroke, FA-180B pistons & the rest of the existing FG-84 parts, I think I could "engineer" an FG-87 prototype with little difficulty.
Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 04-05-2015 at 06:53 AM.
#3746
Senior Member
Correction
The FA-180 has a 1.1mm longer stroke than the FA-150 & the FG-57/FG-84 derivatives. (not .9mm as previously posted)
FA-150/FA-300T/FA-459R3/FG-57T/FG-84R3 all have 27.5mm stroke.
FA-180/FG-30 have 28.6mm stroke.
This is why the 36mm pistons for the gas multis are approximately .55mm taller from wrist pin to crown than either the FA-180 or FG-30 which uses the 36mm FA-180 piston.
These differing compression heights compensate for the differing strokes while maintaining the same relative total height of the piston crown from crank throw C/L.
FA-150/FA-300T/FA-459R3/FG-57T/FG-84R3 all have 27.5mm stroke.
FA-180/FG-30 have 28.6mm stroke.
This is why the 36mm pistons for the gas multis are approximately .55mm taller from wrist pin to crown than either the FA-180 or FG-30 which uses the 36mm FA-180 piston.
These differing compression heights compensate for the differing strokes while maintaining the same relative total height of the piston crown from crank throw C/L.
Last edited by SrTelemaster150; 04-05-2015 at 04:14 PM.
#3747
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: hagerstown, MD
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have about 4 hrs on my first 84. Put about and hour and 20 minutes of run time on the second yesterday. The first one we ran 1 tank with extra rich settings and kept it below 4k rpm for the first tank and a half and then adjusted for a 6400rpm at WOT with a Mejzlik 24x10 2 blade.
Yesterday we ran the new one with the new break in figures in the manual. Put a little oil in the crank before turning over and ran the first tank with a Xoar 23x10 keeping it at about 3k rpm. Run for 15 minutes and cool for 20-30 minutes. Second tank went to the 24x10 and ran for 15 minutes. At this point #3 was running about 20 degrees cooler than 1 and 2 and throwing more smoke. Pulled and swapped the plug and ran for the rest of the tank. At 3000 rpm a 420cc tank lasted 30 minutes before the first air bubble in the line on the first tank, and 33 minutes on the second. After two tanks (1 hr) run time we let it cool and adjusted valves back to spec, swapped all three plugs and set low needle to 4 turns and high to 3.5 turns. Fired it back up and run it at some higher rpm for 10 minutes and let it cool again. Last run was another 10 minute run. It is now turning the 24x10 at 6500 WOT and idles nice and smooth at about 1400-1500 rpm with a quick smooth transition from low to high and back. Cylinder temps are all within about 10 degrees from high to low.
For fuel I'm running 93 octane with the lowest ethynol I can find and Klotz BeNol racing oil from the local bike shop. 20:1 calls for 6.4 oz to the gal. so I use 7oz. So far so good on both engines.
Yesterday we ran the new one with the new break in figures in the manual. Put a little oil in the crank before turning over and ran the first tank with a Xoar 23x10 keeping it at about 3k rpm. Run for 15 minutes and cool for 20-30 minutes. Second tank went to the 24x10 and ran for 15 minutes. At this point #3 was running about 20 degrees cooler than 1 and 2 and throwing more smoke. Pulled and swapped the plug and ran for the rest of the tank. At 3000 rpm a 420cc tank lasted 30 minutes before the first air bubble in the line on the first tank, and 33 minutes on the second. After two tanks (1 hr) run time we let it cool and adjusted valves back to spec, swapped all three plugs and set low needle to 4 turns and high to 3.5 turns. Fired it back up and run it at some higher rpm for 10 minutes and let it cool again. Last run was another 10 minute run. It is now turning the 24x10 at 6500 WOT and idles nice and smooth at about 1400-1500 rpm with a quick smooth transition from low to high and back. Cylinder temps are all within about 10 degrees from high to low.
For fuel I'm running 93 octane with the lowest ethynol I can find and Klotz BeNol racing oil from the local bike shop. 20:1 calls for 6.4 oz to the gal. so I use 7oz. So far so good on both engines.
Last edited by V2rider; 04-06-2015 at 05:47 AM.
#3748
I have about 4 hrs on my first 84. Put about and hour and 20 minutes of run time on the second yesterday. The first one we ran 1 tank with extra rich settings and kept it below 4k rpm for the first tank and a half and then adjusted for a 6400rpm at WOT with a Mejzlik 24x10 2 blade.
Yesterday we ran the new one with the new break in figures in the manual. Put a little oil in the crank before turning over and ran the first tank with a Xoar 23x10 keeping it at about 3k rpm. Run for 15 minutes and cool for 20-30 minutes. Second tank went to the 24x10 and ran for 15 minutes. At this point #3 was running about 20 degrees cooler than 1 and 2 and throwing more smoke. Pulled and swapped the plug and ran for the rest of the tank. At 3000 rpm a 420cc tank lasted 30 minutes before the first air bubble in the line on the first tank, and 33 minutes on the second. After two tanks (1 hr) run time we let it cool and adjusted valves back to spec, swapped all three plugs and set low needle to 4 turns and high to 3.5 turns. Fired it back up and run it at some higher rpm for 10 minutes and let it cool again. Last run was another 10 minute run. It is now turning the 24x10 at 6500 WOT and idles nice and smooth at about 1400-1500 rpm with a quick smooth transition from low to high and back. Cylinder temps are all within about 10 degrees from high to low.
For fuel I'm running 93 octane with the lowest ethynol I can find and Klotz BeNol racing oil from the local bike shop. 20:1 calls for 6.4 oz to the gal. so I use 7oz. So far so good on both engines.
Yesterday we ran the new one with the new break in figures in the manual. Put a little oil in the crank before turning over and ran the first tank with a Xoar 23x10 keeping it at about 3k rpm. Run for 15 minutes and cool for 20-30 minutes. Second tank went to the 24x10 and ran for 15 minutes. At this point #3 was running about 20 degrees cooler than 1 and 2 and throwing more smoke. Pulled and swapped the plug and ran for the rest of the tank. At 3000 rpm a 420cc tank lasted 30 minutes before the first air bubble in the line on the first tank, and 33 minutes on the second. After two tanks (1 hr) run time we let it cool and adjusted valves back to spec, swapped all three plugs and set low needle to 4 turns and high to 3.5 turns. Fired it back up and run it at some higher rpm for 10 minutes and let it cool again. Last run was another 10 minute run. It is now turning the 24x10 at 6500 WOT and idles nice and smooth at about 1400-1500 rpm with a quick smooth transition from low to high and back. Cylinder temps are all within about 10 degrees from high to low.
For fuel I'm running 93 octane with the lowest ethynol I can find and Klotz BeNol racing oil from the local bike shop. 20:1 calls for 6.4 oz to the gal. so I use 7oz. So far so good on both engines.
Last edited by kwik; 04-06-2015 at 06:34 AM.
#3749
Senior Member
My Feedback: (3)
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Mahomet,
IL
Posts: 417
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The entire Saito gas line is on sale, I wouldn't hold your breath for an FG-90R3.
I'm just speculating. Since they had so many problems W/the FG-84 due to poor fuel distribution. Now they are selling it at discounted prices? Looks like they want to deplete the stock & all they need to change to go to FA-180 stroke to go W/the 180 bore that exists now in the FG-84 is to increase the stroke by .9mm via a new crank & use FA-180 pistons. Add the Ray English induction modification & viola' FG-90 (FG-87 actually since the FA-180 is only 29.1cc)
#3750
Senior Member