wallace.tharp

Great information on your part Dr Motor: I am a bit of a rookie on electric, I have a Hacker 60L Castle 120 Ice HV, 22" props, 2ea Turnigy Nano 5000 LiP0, 5s, in serries...really works great. Two Hacker 30s from Precision Aerobatics with their esc. Great!! Bought a Gens Ace combo from Hobby Partz about 2 months back, they have a 30 day guarantee, sad face..smoked my Gens Ace 3747 1500 /their 45 esc with the recocmended 14x7 prop and a 4 cel, 3000ma 20c battery in about 20 seconds. Had a tac on it and a "whatt's up." The motor smelled of burning electric just a little bit the first time I ran it up to just a few rpms. I never did fly the airplane & it was mounted with no cowl. Few days later, ran it up in the driveway prior to my maiden and; reved to about 10000 rpm for just a few seconds, still at full throttle, sagged down to about 7600 R's and the motor smoaked!!! Got damn hot too!! Nothing abnormal observed on the matching Gens Ace esc. What happened? Was it trying to turn the prob too ast or what? Any help appreciated. wallace.tharp

DrMotor

COMMENT:
Thanks.

Wallace, that is a big motor for a "rookie on electric" ...
Sounds to me you are actually quite experienced in electric -by the number of motors you have ..

Seems to me that what might have happened, Wallace, is that you got unlucky ...
There will always (I guess) be a few bad motors in any batch ...
Sounds to me that there might have been a short circuit in the motor, with some of the stator copper wire touching each other .. This would cause a large current to flow, the motor to get very hot, and then for the motor to "burn out" and fail.
In many cases, the ESC would actually be fried as well, due to the very large current flow.
You are lucky that did not happen.

I would send the Gens Ace motor back, and get it replaced. It is clearly faulty.

I have a Gens Ace Mars 3744-800KV motor -and I will be running mine very soon ...

Wallace: the Gens Ace Mars 3747 is a 1500KV motorwith 10T and 8 poles (162g) -and only takes up to 5S LiPo
see: http://www.gensace.com/epages/genspo...-BL3747-1500KV
It seems a rather high Kv to be used in a plane ?
-A motor like this would usually be used in a Heli, and not a plane ...?

DrMotor

Thanks. ( "Bustabloodklaart" = Bust a blood clot ?)

a. Hacker A30-14 L V2 (quoted Kv 800) is EXACTLY THE SAME 142g motor as the Torque 2814T/820 (quoted Kv 820 -a difference of 20 in the Kv is neither here nor there ... ). The ONLY difference between these motors is purely a cosmetic one -differently machined end housings, and a different colour on the outside. I think we are all 100% certain about this ...
-If you take your Hacker A30-14 L apart (very easy to do ...) -you will find that inside, it is IDENTICAL to the Torque 2814T/820.

b. The PA Thrust 30 motor is smaller (105g) than these two, and is basically the same motor as the Torque 2818T/900 and also APACHE APM30-18T (900 Kv). It is more "Hacker A30-M" in size, rather than "A30-L" size

c. The E-Flite Power 110 -is 490g, with a Kv 295. It is 6354 in size. It has a 5325 stator.
-This is a very similar size motor to Turnigy SK3 6354-260kv -which is 485g and has a 5025 stator with 18T.
Also, could look at the HYPERION Z5025 20T 235 KV (e.g. Robotbirds) -however, Hyperion quotes a weight of 570g for this motor and has lower Kvthan E-Flite 110(-its real weight may well be less than 570g -since most other 5025 motors produced by Sunray Tech weigh ~520g ...).
-There is also the: Foxy C5025/24 195 Kv (Puffin Models, Bristol) and the LiPolice LP-5025 /22T-230KV (Schweighofer, Austria -they have free shipping to the whole of EU ..)
-both these motors weigh 520g and also have lower Kv's than the E-Flite 160.

-If you want to pay big bucks, then I suppose you could look at a Hacker A60-7 XS V2 28-Pole -which has weight of 480g, and Kv 320.
See: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11433501
-Of course, the Hacker, Hyperion, LiPolice and Foxy motors etc etc are all made together by the Sunray Tech factory ...

d. The E-Flite Power 160 -is 650g with a Kv of 245. It is 6364 in size, and has a 5335 stator.
-This is a similar size motor to a Turnigy SK3 6364-245kv -which is 697g.It has a 5035 stator and is 14T. There are also other SK3 6364 motors which have lower Kv.

-There seems nothing else in the Hacker / Hyperion / LiPolice /Foxy etc range which is of similar weight and size.

DrMotor

HOWEVER: If you are going to put a 160-size motor in a 2m plane like the Capiche, then we are basically talking about an F3A type motor.
-F3A motors are usually ~580g and have Kv ~220. They generally have a 5030 stator (some heavier F3A motors have a 5330 or 5335 stator -like Dualsky and Himax, if I remember right ...).
There are a number of relativelyinexpensive F3A motors to consider: I suggest you have a look at:

LiPolice LPA-F3A-5030-210KV, 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole
OK Hobby Infinite A5030-210 (For F3A), 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole
Mega Power TAURUS MPA5030-210KV (F3A), 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole

Turnigy F3A SK3 Competition Series 28 Pole Outrunner, 590g, Kv 240, 6T, 28pole

Torque F3A "Silver Bullet", 580g, Kv 220, 7T, 28 pole (from Extreme Flight, E-F)
Shulman Aviation FURY 60/67-230 "F3A", 590g, Kv 230, 28 pole

-It seems really quite unbelievable, but actually ALL theaboveF3A motors (and a few more ..) are made together in the Sunray Tech factory, side-by-side along with Hacker and Torque motors etc:

More on F3A motors, tomorrow ...


pics show: 1,2,3: LiPolice, OK Infinite and Megapower F3A motors; 4, Shulman FURY F3A motor; 5,6, Torque F3ASilver Bullet motor

DrMotor

Here is a bit more info on F3A motors:

LiPolice LPA-F3A-5030-210KV, 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole
OK Hobby Infinite A5030-210 (For F3A), 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole
Mega Power TAURUS MPA5030-210KV (F3A), 580g, Kv 210, 7T, 28 pole
-THESE F3A MOTORS ARE ALL COMPLETELY IDENTICAL, EVEN ON THE OUTSIDE -THEY ARE JUST DIFFERENT COLOURS ...
-They arebasically the same 28 pole motor as a Hacker A60-22 S, Kv 215

Turnigy F3A SK3 Competition Series 28 Pole Outrunner, 590g, Kv 240, 6T, 28pole
-WILL BE ALMOST IDENTICAL TOTHREE MOTORS ABOVE, EXCEPT IT IS A 6T MOTOR, AND HAS KV 240 ...
-OF COURSE, IT IS MADE IN THE SUNRAY FACTORY AS WELL -SO WILL BE IDENTICAL INTERNALLY TO OTHERS
-IT IS JUST COSMETICALLY DIFFERENT,WITH THE REAR END HOUSING MACHINED TO DIFFERENT SHAPE(FRONT HOUSING IS IDENTICAL ...)
-This is basically the same 28 pole motor as a Hacker A60-20 S V2, Kv 245

Torque F3A "Silver Bullet", 580g, Kv 220, 7T, 28 pole
Shulman Aviation FURY 60/67-230 "F3A", 590g, Kv 230, 28 pole
-THESE TWO ARE ALSO BASICALLY IDENTICAL, THEY LOOK IDENTICAL EXTERNALLY, EXCEPT SHULMAN MOTOR HAS KV 230 ...
-BOTH AGAIN MADE BY SUNRAY ...
-THEIR OUTSIDE APPEARANCE HAS JUST BEEN COPIED FROM THE PLETTENBERG XTRA / ADVANCE F3A MOTORS
-They are basically the same 28 pole motor as a Hacker A60-22 S, Kv 217 (Torque);or Hacker A60-20 S, Kv 245 (Fury)

Sunray also make:
Apache X60-9T-Acro-Competition, 570g, Kv215, 9T, 20 pole
Apache X60-8T-Acro-Competition, 570g, Kv230, 8T, 20 pole
-WHICH LOOK IDENTICAL TO TORQUE / SHULMAN FURY, BUT ARE 20 POLE MOTORS (EVIDENTLY ...)
-These Apache motors are also sold by SLOWFLYER.CH in Switzerland - http://www.slowflyer.ch

And finally, for completeness, Sunray also make the: Lipotech GTAR25 F3A motor (Italy)

Also very similar to all these above F3A motors (and also probably identical internally), and ALSO made by Sunray Tech, are:
Hacker A60-24 S V2 28pole, Kv 195,
Hacker A60-22 S V2 28pole, Kv 217
Hacker A60-20 S V2 28pole, Kv 245
-THESE MOTORS ALSO WEIGH 595g -JUST LIKE ALL THE ABOVE F3A MOTORS -Just choose the Kv you want ...
-OF COURSE THESE A-60 S HACKER MOTORS ARE MADE IN THE SAME SUNRAY FACTORY, ALONG WITH ALL THE OTHERS ...
-Torque, Shulman FURY, LiPolice, Megapower, Turnigy SK3, Apache, etc etc

I suppose there is possibly theGens ACE Mars 5953 225KV motor(-also made by Sunray) -also 590g, has about right Kv, however it is 14 pole rather than 28 pole -the smaller Gens Ace 5943 motordoes not have adequate power for a 2m plane,but this bigger 5953 motor might well have enough power -See: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_11...m.htm#11457315

The Hacker Q60-7M F3A motor,is MUCH more expensive than all the above motors ($540 -and $622 in UK) -and anyway is just basically a copy of the Plettenberg Xtra 30-10 -with a purple colour on the outside, and a slightly different rear end housing.


Pics show: 1, Apache X60-8T / 9T-Acro-Competition (identical appearance toE-F Torque and Shulman F3A motors); 2, 3, Turnigy F3ASK3 Competition motor; 4,Gens ACE Mars 5953 motor; 5, Hacker A60-24 S motor
NOTE: THE TurnigyF3A SK3 MOTOR HAS EXACTLY THE SAME FRONT HOUSING AND THREADED SHAFT ASTHE LIPOLICE, OK HOBBY INFINITE AND MEGAPOWER F3A MOTORS ...
-AND ALSO HAS THE SAME THREADED SHAFT AS THE HACKER A60-S AND THE GENS ACE MOTOR ...
-DIAGNOSTIC OF A SUNRAY-MADE MOTOR ...?

DrMotor

PRICES OF F3A MOTORS:
-in order of price; All prices converted to US $, for comparison:

Turnigy SK3 F3A Competition-Series 28 Pole NOW:$139.15
OK Hobby Infinite A5030-210 Brushless motor -For F3A $139.99 (-OK Hobby may no longer be trading -Be Careful ...!)
Mega Power TAURUS MPA5030-210KV F3A $199
Lipotech GTAR25 F3A$203 (157 Euros)
Hacker A60-22S V2 (in USA) $214.99 -in UK, costs £196.49 =$297.91(West London Models)
LiPolice LPA-F3A-5030-210KV $218.34 (169.90 Euros)
Shulman Aviation FURY 60/67-230 "F3A" $225
Extreme Flight Torque F3A "Silver Bullet" $229
Hacker A60-22S V2 in UK $297.91
Apache X60-8T-Acro $419 (399 CHF) -OR: $272 from AnyRC in S Korea
Plettenberg Xtra 30-10 V2 $515
Hacker Q60-7M F3A (in USA)$540 -in UK, costs £410.26 =$622(Area51 distribution)
Plettenberg Advance 30-10 $559
Hacker Q60-7M F3A in UK $622

(Gens ace Mars 5953$161.19 (125.43 Euros) )

29 MARCH 2013: JUST NOTICED THAT HK HAVE REDUCED PRICE OF SK3 F3AMOTOR
-FROM $159.99 TO $139.15 .... GREAT PRICE ...! (-Was the idea to make it the cheapest ...?)

Also note:Hacker A60-22S V2 isa very similar motor toHacker A60-7S; both are 28 pole, and have similar Kv;Just that Hacker A60-22S is configured for front mounting, whereas Hacker A60-7S is configured for rear mounting.

You pays your money -from $139 to about $550 (or $622 in UK)-for motors which are largely identical ... -all made side-by-side at Sunray Tech ... - -and takes your choice ...
(Note:Plettenberg motors are NOT made at Sunray Tech -as far as I know; -They are just included for price comparison...)

For comparison:
E-flite Power 160 -is £173.82 in UK =$263.54 (Kings Lynn Models)
-And this motor only costs $149.99 in the USA ...! - http://www.gravesrc.com/EFLITE_NYA_P.../eflm4160a.htm

Also: E-flite Power 160 be obtained on eBay for US $149.99 (mth-hobby in USA)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/E-Flite-Powe...-/200688742244

(and the Tacon Big Foot 160 245KV motor, which has almost the samespecsas E-Flite 160, is just $55 from Hobbypartz ..)

It's a lottery ...

DrMotor

Pics below tell the story ...
-Hacker Q60-7M has exactly same configuration at front as Plettenberg; and a very similar arrangement at back, with a circular ring attached to the rear mount.Only difference is that rear endhousing of Hacker Q60 can be removed, and Plettenberg cannot (because the rotating can of the Plettenberg is a one piece part).

DrMotor

Now: we can see very easily, that the HackerQ60-7M F3Amotor is just a complete copy of the Plettenberg Xtra 30 motor.
And yet Hacker are audacious enough to state:
http://www.hacker-motor-shop.com/e-v...&c=2985&p=2985
" ... The Q60 outrunner is a brand-new, innovative high-end brushless motor for F3A competition purpuses. The Hacker R&D department designed this outstanding motor for professional pilots with ultimate perfection.
This motor is the bes.t choice for everybody, who likes to fly maximum power, best performance and great reliability. Every Q60 motor is made by hand, assembled an.d totally checked at Hacker Company Germany ..."

First, it is clear that the "Hacker R&D department" did NOT design this motor-Plettenberg did ...
Second, this motor is not "brand-new" or "innovative" -it is just a copy of the Plettenberg ...
It is quite amazing that they can say such things ...

ALSO: It seems extremely likely that this motor is NOT made in Germany. ALL the parts for this motor will be made by Sunray Tech in China-that is certain. The motormay possibly have 1 or 2 little bitsbolted onat Hacker in Germany, but that will be aboutit ...

DrMotor

SIMILARITIES THAT CANNOT BE EXPLAINED BY PURE CHANCE:
-Just in case anyone might have the .. tiniest, weensiest, microscopic .. little doubt about whether the Extreme Flight Torque F3A "Silver Bullet" motor might be made in the Sunray Tech factory, we have this direct comment from Extreme Flight themselves:
http://www.extremeflightrc.com/html/2MVanquish.html
" ... Extreme Flight RC has also worked closely with our motor manufacturer to develop a very high quality 28 pole F3A motor that we call the Torque Silver Bullet F3A ... "

-Now of course, we KNOW that the "motor manufacturer" for ALL Extreme Flight Torque motors is the SunRay Technology factory.
This comment therefore confirms completely that the Torque F3A Silver Bullet motor is made by Sunray Tech.

In addition, we also KNOW that Sunray also make Shulman Fury and Apache motors; And because the Shulman and Apache F3A motors are so identical to the Torque motorand to each other (apart from Apache being 20 pole) -we know that the Shulman and Apache F3A motors must also be made by Sunray Tech.

We also know, for certain, that Sunray make all the LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite, MegaPower Taurus, and Turnigy SK3 motors. And because the F3A motors from all these brands are so identical with each other (apart from the SK3 having 6T rather than 7T), we know without doubt that the LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite, MegaPower Taurus, and Turnigy SK3 F3A motors must all be made by Sunray Technology.

QED

-It also seems very likelythat the LiPolice, OK Hobby Infinite, MegaPower Taurus, and Turnigy SK3 F3A motors -which all have a 5030 stator, 28 poles and 24 stator arms, and weigh 580g ...
-have the very same internal working parts as the Torque and Shulman F3A motors, which also have a 5030 stator, 28 poles and 24 stator arms, and weigh 580g ...
-and that, in turn, they all have the very same internal parts as the Hacker A60-S motors(20, 22, 24T) -which also have a 5030 stator, 28 poles and 24 stator arms, and weigh ~580g ....

Get the drift ...?

rceccleston

Question - if Castle Creation ESC's are now supplied with Align kits and Align branded servos are made by Savox, who makes the Align range of motors??

DrMotor

Have never looked a Align motors ... Will take a look in next few days ...

wallace.tharp

Dr: Thanks so much for the rapid reply. Great info, & I must admit at the time I ordered the motor I thought the higher the KV the better, but I can now see it figures into the intended RPM. I am trying not to buy too expensive of a esc & motor combo because it's going in a HAN 9, 40 cub on floats, 7.5 to 8 lbs. and could well get dunked!!! Keep up the good info for us all. I was in New Zealand in about 1984 & it it was all they said it would be. Must be a great place to live. Again thanks, wallace.tharp

DrMotor

Many thanks

Wallace: I had a look at: Hangar 9 Piper J-3 Cub 40 - http://www.hangar-9.com/Products/Def...ProdID=HAN4000
-Wingspan: 80 in / 2.03m; Flying Weight: 6.75–7.5 lb / 3–3.4 kg

Hangar 9 themselves suggest:E-Flite Power 46, 670Kv, with 13x8 prop;motor is290g, 5055 -size on external dimension (& has 4020 stator)
http://www.hangar-9.com/Products/RelatedParts.aspx?ProdID=HAN4000&Category=Completi on%20Guides&SubCategory
-I would think any 30-size motor, like Gens Ace 37mm external diam (e.g. Gens Ace 3744 or 3747) would be too small for this plane.
The plane weighs ~3.2kg, andis relatively slow flying -would a 60-size motor (in IC equivalent terms) be suitable ..? -Hangar 9 of course, suggest the E-Flite Power 46-which is supposed to be equivalent to an IC 46 motor.

So: We are looking at a motor with 50mm external diam, ~300g, and has 4020 stator. See: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11427948

For a motor of about the same Kv asE-Flite 46: I suggest: Turnigy SK3 5045-660kv, 280g; HYPERION Z4020 12T 660KV (same motors internally)

If you want to use a larger prop, go for lower Kv: e.g. Turnigy SK3 5045-500kv; HYPERION Z4020 16T 504KV -maybe HackerA50-14 XS V2, Kv 564
If you want to use a smaller prop, then use higher Kv: HYPERION Z4020 10T 748 KV;LiPolice / Foxy C4020/10 755 Kv; or HYPERION Z4020 8T 915KV

If you want more power, then use a larger motorlike: HackerA50-12 S V2, Kv 492, 345g;or HYPERION Z4025 12T 486KV; BOOST 60, Kv 490
or one with higher Kv for a smaller prop: HYPERION Z4025 10T 570KV; BMI SPITZ 46, Kv 580

-JUST AN IDEA: WHY NOT LOOK AT THE: Tacon Big Foot 46 (670KV) ?
http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m605-bigfoot46-4020-670kv.html
-This is a very similarmotor (i.e. almostidentical specs) as the E-Flite 46, and only costs $45.00from Hobbypartz ...

There is also the: GForce G46 (5055) , KV600, 295g -worth considering, only $45
http://www.valuehobby.com/power-syst...g46-kv600.html

Hope this helps ...

DrMotor

Just a thought:
The 69" QQ Yak 54; weighs 8.5lb =3.86kg;-was suggested for: 91-1.20 2/4 stroke glow http://www.fusionmodels.co.uk/69inch.html
-So appears to be rated at between 90-size and 120-size-perhaps can be called a 110-size plane ? -QQ planes were always built lightly ...

I wonder -does the 69" QQ Yak really need a motor as large and heavy as an E-Flite 110 ?
However, I do note that Reza -who used to work at QQ Models -used an E-Flite 110 to convert his own QQ 69" plane ...
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=30906 (missing bit in link is "FG" -RCUautomatically removes their name ...)

Others have used a Scorpion 4025-12 motor for the 69" QQ Yak: see http://www.teamflyingcircus.com/foru...74/index2.html
-This Scorpion 4025-12 is a 347g motor with 440 Kv,is quoted to have max power of 2000W (has a 4025 stator)
http://www.scorpionsystem.com/catalo...s40/S-4025-12/
-At least as far as size, weight and Kv are concerned, it is similar to: Hacker A50-14 S V2, Kv 424 (345g) -which also has a 4025 stator.
However, the Hacker A50-14 S motor is typically used for 50-size planes like Sebart Angel 50, 3DHS Osiris 62" etc
-so (in my opinion) a Hacker A50-14 S -type motor would NOT be large enough or powerful enough for the larger and heavier 69" QQ Yak -and anyway, the Hacker is rated for a max power of 1250W (not 2000W like the Scorpion) (-It is indeed quite surprising in the above team-flying-circus thread, they DID find the Scorpion 4025-12 motor large enough for the 69" QQ Yak ... )

Many 110- and 120-size electric planes (-like the 69" QQ Yak) use a motor that is the size of Hacker A50-14 L V2, (430g), Kv 300
This is exactly the same motor as: HYPERION Z4035 14T 299 KV; LiPolice / Foxy 4035 /14T-310KVetc etc
See: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11429728

So it may be worth looking at some of these motors .... and other similar size motors.
It may well be unnecessary to use a motor as large and as heavy as the E-Flite 110, in the 69" QQ Yak ... -especially in these modern times with very high discharge 40C and 60C LiPo's available ...?

Bustabloodklaart

Cheers Dr M
I'm also looking at the Rotomax120
It's got a YS110 up front at the Mo so as you can see I'm not a fan of 'marginally powered' planes..
The good Doctor (Alan Levy) used to import the QQ range to the UK and here's his page with recommendations,-
http://www.alebproducts.com/proddetail.php?prod=qq002

As you can see the cheapie motors he mentions are no longer available...
I'll 8cell it but unlike most of the people on line who've lekkied them I'll use small 3700 or 4000 batts
to keep the weight down. I'm lucky to have decent on site charging and flying the YS I'm used to 6.5 mins flights.

DrMotor

YES, THE "CHEAPIE" MOTORS ARE STILL AVAILABLE ....
-All the old "HXT" motors -were all made by the XYH factory; they are XYH "C" type motors - http://en.xingyaohua.com/html/play/412.html
-They are exactly the same as the older Turnigy 63-54 and Turnigy 63-64 motors, and are also often sold as "EMP"motors -see: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=11426913 -the section on "XYH, EMP, Electric Model Power" about half way down ...

XYH (HXT) C 63-54 / 10; 480g; Kv: 250; 6354 -size; has 53-20 stator; Up to 10 Li-Po cells);
XYH (HXT) C 63-64 / 10; 640g; Kv: 230; 6364 -size; has 53-30 stator; Up to 10 Li-Po cells);
-The XYH "N" type 63 -series motors have same KV, are a little better quality, and are heavier (-The N 63-64 weighs 706g)
-The N-type XYHmotors were the old "Turnigy AerodriveXp SK" motors ... (black can withsilver end housings)
-The C-typeXYH motors were (and still are, for most part)the "standard" Turnigy motors -the "Aerodrive" ones withchrome can and gold end housings. XYH also make the cheaper Turnigy brand motors with the blue can and red end housings.

These XYH motors are also sold by "4-Max" as "Purple Power" motors - http://www.4-max.co.uk/motors.htm -ALL their motors are XYH. -Their "Standard" series are XYH C-type motors; Their "Professional" series are XYHN-type motors. The "Professional" motorthey call "6367" isjust the N-type 6364 motor (they just add on "3" to 6364 ...). They do not sell a 6354 -size motor, for some reason ....

These XYH motors are ALSO available from Giant Shark as C-type or N-type XYH motors: e.g.
XYH 63-54 250KV 65A Outrunner £35 (in stock)
http://www.giantshark.co.uk/xyh6354-...-p-404607.html

XYH 63-64 230KV 55A Outrunner £44.54 (in stock)
http://www.giantshark.co.uk/xyh6364-...-p-404967.html

In my opinion: The XYH 63-54 may be OK for the 69" QQ Yak; The XYH 63-64 is far too big -this motor is for 6kg to 10kg planes, and the 69" QQ Yak is only 3.8kg.
I also think: RotoMax 1.20 is probably far too much motor -it is 622g, has a diam 80mm, length 76mm (that is "8076" in external dimension).

If you want a "cheapie" motor: Go for XYH 63-54 230KV -at £35 it is disposable ...
HYPERION Z-4035/14 is£74.95 from Robotbirds - http://robotbirds.com/catalog/produc...roducts_id=679
Foxy C4035/14 (exact same motor internally) is £81.95 from Puffin Models - http://www.puffinmodels.com/product.php?prod=2108
(Also: HYPERION ZS-4035-12 299Kv, 521g, is £119.95 -from Robotbirds)

Of course, Hyperion and Foxy are better quality than XYH ... -But XYH are STILL very good motors

Radical Departure

My Feedback: (13)

Wow.. what an incredibly informative thread... will have to take some time to study and digest this. Very interesting.. subscribed!

rosnik

Hi DrMotor,
on the first thank you for your support.
I got one Sebart Angel 50 with Hacker A50-14S V2 , 16x8 APC , 5S 4000mAh , 80Amp ESC.
I chose 5S instead of 6S because is my opinion that lighter is better flier ,
with this setup I got plenty of power and hovering without problem.

Now ,
I'm building one 2nd Sebart ANGEL 50 Evo RC plane,
but I'm looking for cheaper motor than the Hacker but always for 18x6 and 5S and with some power.

Can you please get some correct directions about?


TNX

DrMotor

Thanks very much.
Let them know on RC GROUPS as well .... !

Bustabloodklaart

DrM
You're a Gentleman
Many thanks for your help. Giant Shark it is then.......
Best
John

DrMotor

Hello rosnik, thanks for comment.
Do I understand correctly -that you want to use an 18x6 prop (i.e. APC Sport) on the 2nd Angel ?Please confirm.
I very certainly have a few suggestions for motors, that are MUCHMUCH cheaper than Hacker A50 S motors.

In the UK, theHacker A50-16Lcosts £141.69(english pounds)(=$215.06converted) -from WestLondon Models.
-Same Hacker motor in USA is only $149.99 (less than 70% of UK price).

In the UK, the Hacker A50-16S costs £114.69 (english pounds) (=$174.20converted) -from West London Models.
-Same Hacker motor in USA is only $129.99 (73% of UK price).
-Itmust bevery irritating for people in UK...

PS: I also have an Angel50, and in this plane I use a PJS 3D 3000 motor (I have had this for 12 years ...!)
-motor is 345g, Kv 490 -see http://www.pjs.cz/& http://www.pjs.cz/product_info.php?c...products_id=45
The motor still works great ..! -I also use 5S LiPo, no need for 6S with this motor.
With a 16x10 prop, and 5S LiPo, I get a reading of 1550 W (current >85A ...!). That is a lot of power for this2.7 kg plane ...

PPS:I can suggest several motors that are ~30% of Hacker motor price .. -Once we know more what you want.

rosnik

OPSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!
sorry mate!
Not 18x8 but 16X8 , one time I tested 17x8 too .
Thank you for help and kind replay.
My Angel is 2720 gr.

DrMotor

So you want a cheaper motor than Hacker, you want to use 5S LiPo, and you want to use a 16x8 prop. And you want the same power and thrust, using 4000mAh LiPo packs, as you have with the Hacker A50-14 S motor.

-Just to understand the situation a little better, and to look at what might be the best Kv for a motor, I did some simulations using DriveCalc.
a: The first shows your present situation -using Hacker A50-14 S motor (Kv 424), with 16x8 prop, and 5S LiPo.
As you can see from pic 1 below, this produces:
50.6A; 935.8W (input power, not power produced by motor ..); prop RPM 6850; thrust 4.97kg;

b: So what happens if we use a motor with a higher Kv -like Hacker A50-12 S (Kv 492), with same 16x8 prop and same 5S LiPo ? This is shown in pic 2. This produces:
78.3A; 1449W; prop RPM 7865; Thrust 6.8kg;
-Prop RPM is higher, because motor has a higher Kv; This higher RPM produces an extra 1.83 kg of thrust. Pitch speed is higher (96km/h) so the plane will have a higher top speed.
BUT: current draw is much higher, at 78.3A; The max current for this 12S motor is 70A -so this large current of 78A may damage the motor, especially if flowing through the motor for long periods.

c: And what happens if we go to a motor with a lower Kv -like Hacker A50-16 S (Kv 378) -same prop, same 5S LiPo ? This is shown in pic 3. This produces:
37.9A; 700W; prop RPM 6257; Thrust 4.04kg
Prop RPM is lower, because Kv of this motor is lower. And this gives less thrust, by almost 1kg, compared to the 14S motor.
Current is also lower (and input power is lower at 700W) -so flights will be longer with this set-up (for a given capacity LiPo pack) because the rate at which the LiPo pack is discharged is lower.
-This lower Kv setup is probably best with 6S LiPo.

d: And this is what is shown in pic 4; This Hacker A50-16 S setup with 6S LiPo produces:
51.4A; 1141W; prop RPM 7249; 5.65kg thrust;
With 6S LiPo, current is now back up around 51A; prop RPM is increased with the higher voltage of 6S LiPo, and we have a higher thrust of 5.65kg.
Compared with situation a, with the 14S motor and 5S LiPo, the current draw is about the same. So the LiPo pack will be discharged at the same rate. However, the LiPo is now a 6S pack, and will be heavier than 5S. Thrust for this set-up is higher than for the 14S motor with 5S LiPo.

SO: What does all this tell us? Apart from a lot of navel-gazing ?
I guess it tells us that if you want to continue using 5S LiPo, with a 16x8 prop, and if youwant to have the same power and thrust as the Hacker, then you will need a motor with a Kv around 420.
The maximum current for the Hacker A50-14 S motor is 70A and max power is 1700W; its so-called "operating current" is 45A - https://www.aero-model.com/8_69_901/...-14S%20V2.html
-So current for any motor needs to be kept below 70A, and probably around an "operating current" of 40 to 50A.
The simulations show it is clearly best NOT to use a motor with a Kv as high as ~490, 500 with 5S LiPo and a 16x8 prop -because this will draw too much current.

It is also worth noting from these simulations, that the thrust values are quite impressive. The Hacker A50-14 S motor with 16x8 prop and 5S LiPo is calculated to produce 4.97 kg of thrust, and for an aeroplane with 2.7kg flying weight, this is close to a 2:1 power to weight ratio. A set-up using a motor with a Kv around 420, and this prop and 5S LiPo, is bound to give sparkling performance to a plane like the Angel 50.

DrMotor

INEXPENSIVE MOTOR, FOR 50-SIZE PLANE: Suitable for 16x8 prop, and 5S LiPo

I have been genuinely very surprised and quite shocked by the very large number of motors out there, with a weight about 345g, and with a Kv about 420. -There are so many, I will list them in 2 or 3 posts ...
The prices of these motors range from £21 to £115 (i.e. $31 to $182 ) ... !!!!
-That is almost a 6-fold price difference. That is absolutely amazing ...

The cheapest is motor is the XYH C 5505 / 08, Kv 400, which costs £21.33.
The most expensive motor is the Hacker A50-14 S,Kv 424 which costs £114.69(in the UK).

The XYH motor is just 18% of the cost of the Hacker;-Or the Hacker motor costs 5.4 times as much as theXYH motor ... !!!!

Is the Hacker REALLY5.4 times as good as an XYH motor?? -After all, a great manypeople find that XYH motorsperform very well indeed.

DrMotor

LIST OF: INEXPENSIVE MOTOR,FOR 50-SIZE PLANE: Suitable for 16x8 prop, and 5S LiPo
Here are some motor choices that will perform very similarly to the Hacker A50-14 S. They all have a Kv close (-ish) to 420, and weight around 345g.
Let us keep in mind that the Hacker A50-14 S costs £114.69 (in the UK).The Hacker has a 4025 stator, and is ~5055 in external size (i.e. 50mm diam and ~55mm long).
The motors below are listed in order of price: Prices arein£ (english pounds, the Queens own currency)
-Here are the first 8 -there are probably more motors out there than the ones I have found, but I have found enough of them:

1. XYH C 5505 / 08, Kv 400, 310g, D50 L55- http://en.xingyaohua.com/html/play/411.html
-Can use prop up to 17x9; max power 1450W, This is the XYH "C-type" motor.
£21.33 - http://www.giantshark.co.uk/xyh5055-...-p-403284.html

2. XYH N 5505 / 07, Kv 400, 329g, D50 L55- http://en.xingyaohua.com/html/play/429.html
-Can use prop up to 17x9; max power 1560W. This is the XYH "N-Type" motor -higher quality, slightly heavier motor than C-type.
£28.22 - http://www.giantshark.co.uk/n505507k...-p-407750.html

3. XYH 5065 / 06 410kv ,381g, KV 410, D50 L65-http://en.xingyaohua.com/html/play/411.html
-Has right Kv, slightly heavier than 345g, and is 65mm long. This is the XYH "C-type" 5065 motor
£31.11 - http://www.giantshark.co.uk/xyh5065-...-p-404748.html

4. Turnigy G46 Brushless Outrunner 420kv (.46 Glow), 300g, D50 L55
-Probably not powerful enough, is only 300g -similar to E-Flite Power 46 but with a lower Kv (-and is 30% of price of E-Flite ...)
$47.84 = £31.49 - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._46_Glow_.html

5. Turnigy SK3 5055-430kv, 370g, 12T D50 L 59
-Really excellent motor, made in Sunray factory along with Hacker, Hyperion etc. Has almost identical internal parts to these. Seems very similar to Hacker A50-14 S (except has 4030 stator, and is slightly heavier). Has very good user comments: "... run a 17x10 TGS prop at 6690 RPM. The static traction is 5 kg"; "using a 18X8 Xoar prop w/ 6S5000 Turnigy 40c batteries and this is the ticket. Over 5900g thrust at 79A is good for Osires 62 ..."; "... The plane used was a 3D hobby Shop 70" AJ Slick weighing in at 9.25 lbs. Excellent performance (with this motor) as noted above ..." -This motor is 28% of the price of Hacker A50-14 S ...!
$49.23 = £32.40 - http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s...ner_Motor.html

6. Tacon Big Foot 60, 420g, 400KV, D50 L 65-this motor seemsvery similarto XYHN 5065, andmay well be made by XYH.
-Has right Kv;75g more than Hacker A50; is 65mm long;is 40g more than E-Flite 60 -SO THIS TACON 60NOT IDENTICAL TO E-FLITE 60
$49.55 = £32.61 - http://www.hobbypartz.com/96m606-big...030-400kv.html

7. EMax BL4030/06, Kv 420, 320g, D50 L58 - http://www.yinyanmodel.com/En/ProductView.asp?ID=193
-With 5S LiPo, 17x8 prop, gives 4.9 kg thrust, Has right Kv and weight. Has 4030 stator.
£33.39 - http://www.giantshark.co.uk/epower-g...-p-405978.html
("E-Power" are Emax motors at Giant Shark)

8. EMax BL4030 385KV, 362g, Kv 385, D50 L58 - http://www.yinyanmodel.com/En/ProductView.asp?ID=50
-With 5S LiPo, 16x10 prop, gives 4.2 kg thrust; has 4030 stator; -Kv of this motor slightly too low -is more like Hacker A50-16 S
£34.78 - http://www.giantshark.co.uk/epower-b...tor-p-257.html
£33.45 - http://www.modelaccessories.co.uk/em...att-410kv.html