Jetpilot12

My Feedback: (19)

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mjfrederick

Well said, Jon. I was surprised to see that Tuan would post something like this. I was even more surprised by Dick's response. I've met Tuan several times out on the contest trail, and he's a good pilot and a strong competitor. I can't imagine him saying that if he didn't believe it to be true. I understand that if he felt there was an issue he should have voiced it at the time or privately later. This is not the forum to question a specific round of judging at a contest, that's for sure. That being said, I can't agree with Dick's public chastizing of Tuan either. ALL of this should have been done in private. Any time someone makes a mistake (either in judging, commenting on the judging, or repsonding to the comment) there's two ways you can go: you can either take that mistake as an opportunity to teach a better way, or you can use it as an opportunity to beat someone down. Just because Tuan may have gone about this the wrong way doesn't mean that the response needs to be the wrong way as well. Take the high road, use it to teach rather than to put him down. I know what it's like to be involved with putting on a contest, and the sense of pride everyone involved in putting on the contest takes in their product, so it can seem very personal when someone comes along and puts down your product. It doesn't mean you have to respond in kind.

pattratt

My Feedback: (1)

In this case it does and I would do it again! I need no further comment and we will agree to disagree.
Dick

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Dick, in a way I agree with you both. As you know, I have on occasion been known to express my feelings here on the RCU pattern forum. There have been times when I felt some degree of satisfaction and other times regret. I mentioned this in another thread somewhere around here under the label of "greasing your buddy up"! If we are honest with ourselves, we all have seen this happen at one time or another. It's subtle but it usually happens on turnaround manuevers that violate the aerobatic box and result in the flyer being awarded undeserved points. On occasion I have contacted several CD's in advance to try to find out if they are aware and if they are willing to enforce the rules to try to stop or at least curtail these dishonest practices. The best example I can think of happened to a very talented F3A flyer by the name of Cameron Smith. Again it was subtle but over a period of several seasons it took it's toll and Cameron quit competing and sold all of his planes and equipment. What a shame and disgrace! I ask you is this fair or right? I can only answer this for myself. Tuan has a legitimate point and his complaint should be taken at face value. If not, then we all can expect pattern activites, as we know it, to only decline in the future. I agree, Tuan would probably be better served to voice his concerns/complaint in person but sometimes you've got to do what's best for you. If I suspect this is happening to me, Tuan should do as I do and ask for a refund and make a mental note to never attend that contest again! Gentlemen, don't ignore Tuan's complaint. There are consequences. Just my thoughts____Everette

pattratt

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Everette
My issue with Taun's post is that he point blank ripped Ron and the Judges integrity by stating they were knowingly committing an act of favoritism for the explicit purpose of altering contest results. He did not say they were making a judging error he specifically stated and I quote " he still come in second do you known why ? because CD and judging is do him a favor that why"! There is no "Gray Area" in that statement! Had he said almost anything else I would have handled it differently. I would have preferred he discussed it in person at the event or privately but he choose the format! Tuan does not have a legitimate point as he was not sitting between the two judges on the flight line. Further, it is my opinion that a contestant only has the right to question "His" scoring not the right to question another contestants scoring and certainly no right to question the personal integrity of this CD or his Judges! In my opinion allowing such public comments to go "unchallenged" would do as you suggested "cause a decline in Pattern activites!
Dick

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Dick, I can more than appreciate what you are saying. Tuan made an error in judgement in the method he used to try to resolve what HE percieved to be a problem. In other words he used this public forum to vent his frustrations and has only added to a bad situation. We all have done this in the past, just in different ways as means to an end. I do not agree with HOW he tried to resolve his problem. What I'm talking about is an age old problem here in D3. Listen, what I'm talking about is not only dishonest it is corrupt! We've got contestants winning here in D3 that could not fly within the confines of the aerobatic box if their life depended on it! Yet, most of these same people whine and wonder why pattern participation has declined in recent years. Daaaaaaa. IMHO, if this problem is not addressed here in D3 and on the regional and national level, then we will have no one to blame but ourselves.There are still pattern participants out here that are trying to do the right thing, have values and refuse to subscribe to the "Chicago style of corrupt politics". Dick, I wish you well and consider you a friend who does care. Thanks, Everette

mjfrederick

Dick,

I won't argue that what he posted warranted a public response, because it did. You can't let someone say that publicly and not respond. I only took issue with the tone, not necessarily what you were trying to say. I went back and re-read what you wrote, and it doesn't seem quite as harsh as the first time I read it, although I still think there's at least one thing you said publicly that probably didn't really need to be said publicly.

Do I think either one of those judges showed favoritism to Jon? Not a chance. Don Ramsey and I have talked the particulars of judging on several occasions, and in my opinion, he is one of the most fair-minded judges out there. I've flown in front of Brandon Landry several times (as a judge, not just at our field since he is a member of our club), and if anything he is harder on the people he knows. Now, that's not right either, but I say that simply to point out that he certainly doesn't favor people he knows, I don't honestly believe that he's intentionally any harsher. I think he's hard on everyone, which I like because it's probably more honest scores than some of the others I've received. You probably couldn't have asked for a better judging panel than that when the difference between second and third was so close because the end result will probably be what it should be.

Do I think Ron Barr showed any favoritism? Not a chance. Tuan's scenario supposes that Ron went to Don and Brandon before the round and said, "Hey, make sure Jon beats Tuan." If further supposes that Don and Brandon both would agree to it. The scenario gets more and more unlikely the further in you go.

Heck, Louisiana boys don't expect to win in Texas anyway! (flame suit on) Just kidding fellas!

vbortone

My Feedback: (2)

Looks like this is good time to review downgrade for going out of the box. Someone wants to start. It is too hard for me to write on the cellular phone.
VB

vbortone

My Feedback: (2)

Looks like this is good time to review downgrade for going out of the box. Someone wants to start. It is too hard for me to write on the cellular phone.
VB

jonlowe

My Feedback: (12)

The rule is simple. You downgrade on the percent of the entire maneuver (including the entrance and exit lines) that is out of the box. If 80% of the maneuver is out, there is an 8 point downgrade plus downgrades for the manuever itself.

pattratt

My Feedback: (1)

Maye it' time to reduce the -5 "K" factor to a -4 "K" for being from Louisiana!
Dick

vbortone

My Feedback: (2)

Jon that is correct. Downgrade could be very low depending how much out-of-the-box the figure was flown: Still high score is possible. Perception from judge chair could be comptete different than front pits. Thanks,

Vicente "Vince" Bortone

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

It's interesting the turn this thread has taken from my original question!
I want to emphasize that my question was just that, a question. No one was upset about the judges' uncertainty, no one felt cheated. I asked the question so I'd know the proper ruling when something like that happens when I'm serving as a judge.

On the topic of judging in general...I'm in my third season of pattern and have been very satisfied with the judging. I've always been treated fairly, even generously and the scores I receive are remarkably close between the two judges.
Thanks, guys.

Scott

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Scott, I sincerely hope you continue to feel the same way in the course of your pattern career over the coming years. Unfortunately, my feelings have not been so positve over the last 5 years of the approx 22 years of flying pattern. At times I thought it might be me suffering burn-out and so I would take a break from the contests only to find that it wasn't me but it was the bias that continues to exist here in D3. I find it interesting that most of the pattern flyers here in D3 have probably read my responses in this thread and have elected to NOT respond. That in and of itself speaks volumes! Perhaps silence is consent or agreement. Vince, my perspective comes from actually standing in back of some of these flyers and between the judges to get an accurate picture of their turnaround maneuvers, not from the pits. Also Vince, I hope to fly with you in Sept of this year at Steve's next contest. Looking forward to it___Everette

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

I think the only fair way to resolve this whole issue is to make all of the contest winners return their prize money to the NSRCA until a full investigation can be carried out. . . .
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What? . . . Whaddaya mean there was no prize money? . . . .
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Until someone comes up with some sort of machine scoring system, pattern flights will be scored by HUMANS.  When you have humans in the loop attempting to make an objective decision about an event as complicated and dynamic as a pattern flight, you have to learn to live with all of the strengths AND weaknesses that come along with that.  You can either decide to work on the POSITIVE human aspect, or spiral down into all of the NEGATIVE human aspects of judging.
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The negative human aspects can be exhibited by both the judge AND the competitor.  If you're at a contest standing behind the judges coming up with your own scores for someone else's flight, and then running around complaining to everyone about it, then you've totally gone off the reservation about what your experience at a pattern contest should be.  It also ruins everyone else's experience having to get embroiled with all of the conspiracy theories, back stories, and Who-Did-What-To-Whom and how it resulted in you Zeroing your snap roll.  Either redirect that energy back to more practice time or go fly Pylon - there is no bias with a stopwatch.
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As for friends scoring friends at a pattern contest. . . . Wow, what can I say?  When it is the same 20-30 guys showing up at a contest year after year it is going to be darn near impossible for the CD to work out a judging schedule if that's the new criteria.  I can see it at the pilots meeting - "OK, I need to get a list of everyone who has not had ANY dealings whatsoever with ANYONE here at the contest and is a qualified judge."  I could see it back in the days of 200 competitors, but not anymore, there just aren't enough pattern flyers. 
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Instead of looking at "friends scoring friends" as a weakness of the system, you're much better off embracing it as a strength.  Try to get involved and join that circle of friends and you'll find that your enjoyment of the pattern season will be much greater than if you're always trying to pick apart the weaknesses.  Its like arguing balls and strikes with the umpire - why bother going to the game if that's what you want to do?  You have to remember why you got into pattern in the first place, to improve your flying NOT your complaining and arguing skills.
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A good friend will give you a Zero on your snap, and then tell you how to fix it AFTER the contest . .
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wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Keith, you've missed the point COMPLETELY! After you've been in the game a few more years and have continued to improve and move up thru the classes then and only then will you be in a position to lecture anyone. Until that time comes, I declare those (and they know who they are) "Guility as Charged"! See ya........

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

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Not lecturing, "just sayin'"  . .
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Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

So Keith, wonder how long it will take you to be in a position to lecture anyone and become Judge and Jury?

Everette, when was the last time you flew in a contest and completed all 6 rounds?

Tim

wattsup

My Feedback: (1)

Tim, thanks for piling on! You are only partially correct in your findings. What you are not aware of is the serious health problem I had for the last 3 years and was only recently diagnosed and
successfully treated. At least I did not decide I could no longer handle Master's and "whimped out" by dropping back to Advanced like some folks I know. Instead, I have continued to practice and hopefully my plan is to attend a number of contests later this year and hopefully be competitive again. Does any of this sound familiar? It should!____Everette

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

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Actually, my post was intended for the people who may be looking at this thread and wondering if its worth investing years of time, money, and effort to pursue our little niche called "pattern".
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Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

I'm glad your health is improving Everette, I want you out on the trail enjoying our sport. I think in your return you'll find the "Good ole boy" system is largely a thing of the past.

You seem to think you can lecture others here with impunity because you've "Been in the game awhile".

I disagree.

Tim

Mastertech

My Feedback: (31)

I think it is, I've had a lot of fun over the years.

Tim

IflyPATTERN

Tuan, i am very sorry if you feel i wronged you in any way. I can assure you there was no favoritism that led to the results in the final round at the jetero contest. I do know i have the rep of being a 'hard' judge, and given my age, i can see where it may be easy to target me as capable of falling into the 'halo' or 'favoritism' game, but in fact, im just the opposite- i strive to be as honest as possible. In fact, don and i appeared to be within a point of each other when we compared scores (after the contest). Overall, i do remember the last round of advanced very clearly ( since i judged all weekend bc i crashed my plane saturday morning), and from my perspective all pilots were, to some degree, struggling with the wind and flight direction change. In fact, watching your flying at the jetero contest i gained more respect for you as a pilot. I can see you have been practicing! Dont let jetero bring you down.... Weve all had conests where we disagree. Once again, im sorry if u feel there was unfairness.

Back to me being a hard judge ( jon, matt, etc... Listen up lol). I take no offense to this label because my intentions are in good will. Let me explain. Pattern is the pursuit of perfection. End of story. A perfect manuever is a ten. End of story. In my short time of flying pattern ( now 5 years ) i have learned the challenges of facing both 'good' ( impression judging )and 'bad' Judging. Its just got to be done by the book. We are already in a sport where the judging is subjective, therefore ephasis on the rules and honestly evaluating anothers flying is crucial for both an accurate result and for the pilot to learn where his weak points lie. Slapping down 7s and 8s on every manuever bc the manuever 'looked good to me' doesnt help anyone in the end. Someone will get a thousand points at the end of the round regaurdless! Haha


In response to the actual question on this thread regaurding the extra roll, i would have zero'd the following maneuver. It does depend on the scenario though, i understand. But in this case i would have zero'd the next turnaround.

Brandon landry

tuan lam

My Feedback: (1)

Hey,DICK! can I call you dick
How dare you come on to this post and point your finger at me and said.I'm publicly said Jetero contest was unfair to me!! did I mention Jetero or Don,Ron and Brandon do a favorite to whom?? dick..?? do you known how many pattern contest is took place after Jetero contest in D6 and out of D6 ? where did you get that info/ which contest I was last attend? where did you get that idea? from whom? is that really happened that why you get that idea?? If I was you!!?? dick...?? as an educated man and a knowledge person I will contact you directly,PM or phone to find out why I said some thing may be,..maybe!! about Jetero contest then I will solve thing out privately in a good manner!! do you known what message did you send it out there to or pattern community and to the new comer and younger pattern pilot ?? HEY DON'T GO TO MY CONTEST NEXT YEAR IF YOU HAVE A COMPLAINT is that how you respond to a contestant to attend to your contest??post #36 how a bout 4K instead of 5K factor for being Louisiana) this type of comment only come out from a mouth of an uneducated person!! dick...?? you just let people known who you really are !! you are a racist that why you had that idea in your mind. How about 1K instead of 4k factor for being Asian or Hispanic or Black or White, I bet you $100 Dollars you will discriminate to any one if they tell you they are coming from MILWAUKEE...!! I bet you another $100 Dollars more you will said this to them, damn you foreigner go back to KOREA where you are came from ,I'm I right !! dick can I call you dick....??? to all the judging has been or will be out there please do not judging who he is where is he come from what is he flying! every time the contestant handling a score sheet to you they are trusted you for a fair judgment in which it every maneuver from take of to a landing,please focus on the air craft to see how is the air craft execute each in every maneuver precisely than down grade or high grade the aircraft only, remember the (aircraft)only don't you all worry about hurting the aircraft felling be cause the aircraft had no felling, only the pilot dose , so who give a bee wax about the pilot no mater who he is famous or not where he come from !! can we all do that ?? yes we caa..nn...'t but we try right

so Please next time dick...?? if you want to make any comment to any one or said some thing to miss lead some of a viewer on this post to created hatred and hurtful one to another to destroy our pattern companion please make sure to used some of your knowledge and with an open mind, if you have some?? if I'm a qualified contestant to compete at any pattern even I will continue to do so, not just because I want to win a place and some of a clapping hand at the end of the contest to tell me how good I fly?? if that what I want I'm all ready quite flying pattern long time ago! do you known everyone of us is a winner in every contest we had being attended, it is the most valuable pride it call companion and I want to take it home with me every time I go to a contest so don't take the most a valuable pride away from me that the only pride I have let for this hobby
tuan lam

RC11

My Feedback: (7)

I'm sorry my wrong rudder caused all this turmoil.... If there was this much angst at all pattern meets, pattern would be dead in a season. I hope we pull in our horns a little and remember that we are just flying toy airplanes. Its supposed to be fun.
Take it light,
RC