I will say that this plane seems to be reasonably durable in the air ... On my OMG rates, the thing snap rolls so fast that I couldn't do anything but laugh. My buddy had about the same response. I like the little plane because it's really fun to fly but I just don't like it's nasty tip-stall tendencies. I'm checking the CG after I post this and I'll let ya know where it is.
-Eric

Well, according to the fingertip and ruler method, I'm 4.5-4.75" behind LE for my cg adjustment.
I had the battery/receiver swapped 2 outings ago but it got kind of hard to land. It wanted to harrier itself in regardless of what I did.
-Eric

That's funny you say that about "nasty tip-stall tendencies"... I don't think I've EVER heard anyone talk about the Twist like that. []

Really, my Twist will slow down to a dead crawl in flight and not drop one wing. All stalls I've had were straight ahead and level. I think I speak for most of the guys on here when I say this. Am I right guys????

You MUST have a CG problem there Eric. I'm quite interested to see where your CG measures out to be.
Gary

Hmmm.... I know what you mean about the harrier style landings with the CG back there around 4.75" but that doesn't explain the tip stalling. Lateral balance? Does it always drop one wing or is it either or?

When I try to do a harrier like ... say 50 feet in the air... I have to keep giving it almost full opposite aileron to keep it from falling off of itself. It doesn't go to one side. It just falls. I thought my ailerons might be pointed downwards slightly like flaps being extended but I checked it and they're straight.
Could this be a PnP issue?
-Eric

Eric, try giving both ailerons about 3/16 up and see what happens. Are both elevator halves on the same plane?

Both elevator halves are as close to the same plane as I can get them. They're not 100% perfect because I think I got a monday morning/friday night plane. I can't really take it apart as the hinges were pre-installed from the factory.
Do you really think the 3/16" up would help?
I also just noticed something, I have about 3 clicks of left aileron trim in it. Which, on my setup equates to about 3/16" off at the tips. The left aileron is actually sitting higher than the right. It doesn't seem to tip left first though from what I recall. I think this is a problem that needs to be addressed, however.
-Eric

Wow, Eric, you have some problems with that PNP. I have NO idea if it's a "PNP problem," but they say it's the same bird as the yellow, purple and pink item. At 4.5 CG you're in the middle of the range. None of it makes sense. I'm with Gary (Ghee-grose). I've never heard of these tip stall problems with a Twist.

What I want to ask is, is the motor running all this time? Did you forget to tighten the prop? Something's very, very weird.

Anyone with a Twist in your area to whom you can apply for another critical eye on that bird?

Keep feeding us more info. Maybe we can figure it out. Right now I want to fly that Twist. Sounds like a helluva challenge. LOL

J

P.S. Waldo, get some flight time, huh? You don't look so good.

Good thinking, Tim. Get back to basics, Eric. Check that bird every which way for horizontal stabilizer, equal both sides, aligned on the same plane as the wing; vertical stab, running true, perpendicular to the horiz stab; and make sure, tripple check, the aileron alignment: draw a line from the leading edge to the trailing edge of the wing and make sure the ailerons are in alignment and NOT bowed. Check to see if the ailerons next to the fuse are ALSO in the same position, relative to the wing tip. If not, a little work with a heating gun can cure that--I've had to do that a number of times--to get the bow out.

Damn, that plane has me thinking--and it's too late in the day for that.

My angle pro gives me the following...
Left aileron inside: -18
Left aileron outside: -19

Right aileron inside: -20.5
Right aileron outside: -18.2

Elevator Right: -15.8
Elevator Left: -16.1

Elevator Right-Left rotation: -9.7
Rudder right-left rotation: 81.5

I promise I tried to keep everything from moving as much as possible but it's kinda hard as the angle pro is kinda heavy and wants to twist the wood. It looks like my right aileron sucks a lot. and the left isn't very far off. My right/left halves of the elevator are pretty close and my vertical/horizontal tail planes are pretty much perpendicular. The stab looks almost perfectly parallel to the wing from looking at it. I would tell you if the wing is twisted but I have no way to measure it.
Hope this helps...
-Eric
I suppose I should add that the plane is around -16 degrees w ith the elevator. So my ailerons are actually pointed down a bit? I think that has something to do with the fact that the angle pro droops them a bit though.

My Twist is set up with flaperon/spoilerons. It seems to fly best with both ailerons up a tad.

Will those slight imperfections throw me off like this? If not, I'll kick the ailerons up 2 or 3 turns of the clevis and see what happens.
-Eric

Well, I set my ailerons with about 1 degree up relative to the horizontal stab. Think that's a good starting point? Or should I go more or less?
-Eric

Eric,

Sorry to hear of your PNP issues. I have experienced no tip stalling tendancies with mine either. I also have the flaperon/spoilerons set up going and I can tell you don't be shy with kicking up the ailerons a ways. I find myself tweaking them up a good 15 degrees relative to the center of the wing itself all of the time based on wind and what kind of manuevers I am doing. I do this both up and down. For experimental purposes, you may want to start slow and see how it affects your flight. You can always add more slowly.

I couldn't tell from the previous posts if you have had a chance to check the lateral balance of the plane yet. I know that this has been a factor as far as stability is concerned for me. I have just had a friend hold a finger tip in front of the tail wheel centered on the bottom of the fuse, and then I held the spinner with no prop on it so the plane could rotate freely. Togethor we picked up the plane and I kept making adjustments in my receiver battery until it balanced laterally.

Other than lateral balance, proper position of ailerons, proper CG, a balanced prop, straight and true control surfaces, and plenty of throw on the conrol surfaces, I can't think of any other advice. I can tell you that this is a great flying plane, but I still am having a heck of a time getting it to stay in a hover. On days when the wind is just right, I am able to pull of some nice 10 second hovers. Eventually the nose drops off or falls one way. For me it is just lack of experience. From what I have gathered here it takes hundreds of flights to really master the art of hovering this bird. Part of the reason I am so passionate about flying this plane. i love a good challenge,

Good luck, and I am sure that collectively we will get this figured out.

Adam

All this talk about stalling.........I don't get it. If your plane is near the harrier position then the wing isn't generating lift and you're way beyond what's known as "stalling". You are "hanging from the prop", as Jack had stated in an earlier posting. Jack was also right on the money when he said that this "high Alpha" flying is a balancing act that involves usually more of the left hand than it does the right. If I may make an attempt at an analogy........picture balancing a broom on your finger.....then picture balancing the broom 30 degrees from vertical......since gravity isn't working straight down the vertical axis of the broom (or in this case the T _ _ _ T) it's going to take more joggling (love that word) to keep it balanced, but the sweet thing is the prop acts like a string tied to the free end of the broom and we now only have to maintain the angle from vertical by "vectoring" the airflow over the control surfaces to keep the tail following at the desired angle. A foamie gives you some valuable experience, but the sheer weight as well as the power to weight ratio of your glow-powered bird is much more of a juggling act (the throttle responsiveness of a foamie is perceptably instantaneous, but with a glow engine, one almost has to anticipate the planes motion that is contrary to the desired hover/harrier). Personally, I find it easiest to intensely focus on the center of the plane while flying these maneuvers. So, as you have already admitted....a steady regiment of practice will indeed improve your flying.
My 2 pence from the peanut section.

Peace

Downtrodden

Good words there Down!

You got me to thinking....

I've used a similar analogy. I tell folks it's like standing on top of a big ball. Once you get at the balance point it's a lot easier, but still requires minor adjustments to STAY on top or else you fall.

The biggest problem I had when learning to hover was to finally get the throttle managed. It doesn't take full throttle to hover usually. I've even had my 9 year old son hovering all kinds of planes on my sim (Aerofly Pro) as long as I manage the left stick. You're right... that's where you make or break your hover.

Another thing... I've found myself staring at the fuselage between the canopy and the prop while hovering. For me it just seems to be the best thing to look at. For kicks, next time you're hovering a foamie try focusing somewhere totally different on your plane and see if you can still fly it. I've tried hovering down and knocking over a bottle before and while I was doing it I would look at the rudder, and could never do it. Then I started focusing back on my usual spot and let my peripheral vision work for bringing to the bottle. PERFECT!!!

Adam, I knew I liked you immediately for SOME reason. The Twist IS a challenge, but once you handle it, it just gets better. I think the wind helped me learn hovering--and we have a lot of wind here. I don't know why but my first long hovers were going across the sky with the wind, sometimes rising a bit (I don't mind cheating now and again :-) ).

What you have to look forward to is torque rolls. Just as the bird, hovering, approaches stall and just BEFORE the prop cavitates (meaning it's going down), the bird twists on the fuse axis and the belly comes around. THEN the challenge is to keep it going around, lots of elevator/rudder action, in consort. Whew! I've had just two three-revolution torque rolls (a hundred singles, quite a few doubles)--and in the wind it's something else, because the wind pushes the wing more than the tail feathers. When the belly comes around, elevator and rudder are reversed, so it's anti-intuitive. Your fingers have to learn. Hint: with the belly towards you, push the rudder stick in the direction of correction, direction of correction. The rhyme helps ya remember. One click up or down with the throttle ruins the whole thing. So you use EVERYTHING you've got: eyes, ears, finger instincts, and INSTANT reactions to the plane's movements--and anticipation. If you have to THINK about it, it won't happen. But doing it is glorious--and the 15x6 prop on the 82a can turn that Twist around like a top sometimes, just at the edge of stall. Weird and wunnerful! The O.S. .61 13x5 prop Twist is the one that taught me, though. (That bird is out of action since I burnt out the bat recharging it. Got so hot it ruined the switch connections, put a hole in the canopy, and blackened the ply seat I built for it under the canopy. Yech!)

Torque rolls are the ONLY thing I can do with the Twist that Down can't--so I keep practicing.

Eric, I haven't the experience with flaperons that Tim has, and I'm unfamiliar with the instrument that produced those numbers you quoted, but WE've always been extremely careful of lining up the ailerons with the WING'S trailing edge. Draw a line from the center of the leading edge to the trailing edge. The ailerons OUGHT to be a continuation of that line for the best aerodynamics for the Twist. And a pro flyer, Mike Lucier at Weak Signals, told me that the OUTBOARD line up was more important than the INboard line up. Meaning the aileron tips at the fuse don't have the power that the outside does. Yeah, makes no sense to me either, anti-intuitive because the inboard ends have so much more area, but that's what he said.

Now, you've fudged around with this plane a lot, gas in gas out. It's an obvious question, but have you RE-checked the CG making sure all the fuel is out of the tank? And maybe the bat or something moved. Just an idle question.

By the way, I think it was Down (who swore off dealing with Horizon after the incident) who returned a wing to Horizon because it was bowed and/or twisted--right out of the effing box! That's a definite possibility--and would answer for a NUMBER of your stated problems with that PNP. Check with me in 10 days. I just may have that PNP in house, here. I love a challenge. Then check with Adam, who will, because of all this, ALSO buy that PNP. Ey, Adam?

J

Jack, you forgot about body english!!! I tend to "lean with it" when it's on the edge sometimes. [sm=lol.gif]

Let me clarify.........I DON'T do torque rolls as Jack defines them, but I do allow my plane to remain vertically stationary as it takes on a rotation that's counter that of the prop. I might add that my plane was doing doing that long before Jack took out his vacuum and Hoovered. Just to set the record straight.

Peace

Downtrodden


It's raining out (can't play hooky to go and fly) and my current customer has informed me that she has overflowed the tub, once again, and the ceiling I've been working on "needs some more mud." @$@$@$#^%#%^$#@$#@# This is the ceiling from Hell! Is there anyone out there that enjoys drywall work? Seriously!

Darn, yeah, Gary, how COULD I leave out BODY ENGLISH--AND squeezing the transmitter. Helps BIG time.

This whole problem with the PNP has me curious. As we speak, I have a PNP in the box out in the shop. I was just lucky enough that I was able to purchase the airframe minus the electronics and engine. I just love the color scheme. I HAD two, but was talked into letting one of them go. Watch our for words like "friends for so many years" and "remember that one time when I......." type statements when someone is eyeing a spare plane of yours. I went over the remaining one with an fine tooth comb, then put it back in the box. I think I'll take it back out and check the wing. everything else seemed good. I was even surprised that the preglued elevator halves are actually on the money.

Hello
Just wanted to brag a little, I put a MACS muffler on my Evo .46 today and had to go out & try it out. Well it gave it 500 more RPM on the top end & I pulled off my first hover today. Didn't last long (about 15 sec) But I felt like a million bucks. Walked around the rest of the time we were there with my chest stuck out. OK I'm done

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If you remember the 70s you weren't there

That's awesome. I have an evo .46 on my harmon rocket and it really does have some power. Surprises people when I tell them what's on there. I can't remember what pipe is on it. It's aftermarket and makes really good power. It's reliable and starts on the first flip almost every time.

Congratulations to you again. If you're anything like me, you'll spend the next month trying to remember how you did it!

anyone mounted a Magnum 70 or 91 four stroke in their Twists.. I'm considering joining the FS club.. thoughts?

Hello
Just thought I would show a couple pics of the TWIST & threw in a pic of the P-51 I'm building & corsair. Pics on the wall behind the mustang are some designs for planes my son drew for me. I'm done now.


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If you remember the 70s you weren't there